[FlipSide]

...or at least among the worst polluting country in the world, isn't it time for the rest of the world to order the US to take measures to stop polluting like that? The USA are always doing whatever they want regarding the international agreements (respecting them or not)...Should we let this situation continue like that?

This article talks a lot about the USA, but I think all the nations in the world should take a serious look at the current ecological situation and do whatever they can to improve the situation. What matters to us now may be profits and comfort...but think about what our children will think about us when they'll realise the dump they live in was still a paradise not so long ago...

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,750783,00.html

By reading this (pessimistic) article, it seems to me that this massive exploitation of the natural ressources has to stop. There's nothing new here...but I think we must all think about what we're doing to our planet when we're supporting McDonald's, when we're driving our SUVs, when we're throwing everything in the garbage instead of recycling whatever we can, etc.

Discuss.

 

[Toshi]

Oh no, the sky is falling!

Comparing the consumption rates of the US and Burundi, as done in the linked article, is worthless. Citizens of Burundi do not live on the resources of 0.5 hectacre a piece out of choice, but rather out of necessity. Another bit of hyperbole is the "we'll have to colonize two planets by 2050," as this statement assumes every inhabitant on the planet uses as many resources as us US citizens. Anyone see a flaw in this logic (and despise the frantic handwaving)?

I have nothing against living thriftily and not wasting natural resources, but I also can't stand environmentalists who distort statistics and write horrible articles such as the one above.

 

[FlipSide]

I absolutely agree with you. Hence my "(pessimistic)" as a description of the article.

Respect of the environment is still very important and is too often neglected in favor of profit, productivity, comfort, etc. THIS is a fact and THIS is what should be emphasised here.

 

[VTinCT]

As an avid outdoor athlete and recreationalist, I totaly agree with the notions of conservation and a greater environmental awareness. As a consumer, and an American, however, I also know it would be an exercise in futility to get the rich man out of his Caddy, or for that matter, this poor man out of his truck (or off his board or bike).

What I think we in the US really lack is a sense of balance. Its always full tilt or nothing. We are gluttons (sorry yawl, but its the truth). Of course there are many people out there who do their bit to ease their impact on the environment, but in general, our nation does not embrace the notions of recycling (on any real scale) or renewable resource development, which in turn makes it that much more difficult for the average American to truly think and act "green."

In the end, I think that this type of dicussion, at least in the case of America (but I'd wager the same is true everywhere), needs to incorporate the issue of our country's power and weath distribution. Who is really making the calls? What intrests are being catered to? How available are the alternatives? And to whom? Where is the education?

Its sad that it will take the reality of a finite petroleum reserve, or the rise in the instances of cancer and birth defects to get our government, and the companies that run it, off their a$$es to look for workable solutions to issues that they have perpetuated.

You have touched upon a massive issue here. I'm interested to see some more of the responses. I'm done for now.

 

[Toshi]

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/07/2355227&mode=nested&tid=134

 

[ibismojo]

The Oil Tycoons have the scientist and researchers by their throats. It's a CONSPIRACY!!! I wouldn't be surprised, but unlikely. Anyways, it's probably true the crude oil, or the ones that we know of, will probably be all gone in about 50 years, at the given rate. So if the oil tycoons know this, and scientists and researchers are looking into alternative energy....why the hell don't the tycoons fund these dudes so they can be the first with alternative energy and make the loads of money...or maybe it's already being done but none of us know about it because the oil dudes who are funding such projects don't want their competitors to know about their secret little agenda.....but this would only work if the supply of oil was damn near gone and alternative energy was accepted by the public, for better or worse economically. actually, they probably don't have a choice cause the alternative energy source would be the only source of energy as all the oil would be depleted....which would once again put the oil tycoons in the controlling seat for the majority of the energy being provided. woohoo...what a complicated and totally impossible conspiracy this may be....and of course it would all have to depend on one fact....that there will be an alternative energy source (meaning it is readily available for the next few centuries and stable) available before the oil runs out.

now this is just oil i'm talking about...so imagine the situations for other resources...or not.

 

[mikec918]

Originally posted by ibismojo
The Oil Tycoons have the scientist and researchers by their throats. It's a CONSPIRACY!!! I wouldn't be surprised, but unlikely. Anyways, it's probably true the crude oil, or the ones that we know of, will probably be all gone in about 50 years, at the given rate. So if the oil tycoons know this, and scientists and researchers are looking into alternative energy....why the hell don't the tycoons fund these dudes so they can be the first with alternative energy and make the loads of money...or maybe it's already being done but none of us know about it because the oil dudes who are funding such projects don't want their competitors to know about their secret little agenda.....but this would only work if the supply of oil was damn near gone and alternative energy was accepted by the public, for better or worse economically. actually, they probably don't have a choice cause the alternative energy source would be the only source of energy as all the oil would be depleted....which would once again put the oil tycoons in the controlling seat for the majority of the energy being provided. woohoo...what a complicated and totally impossible conspiracy this may be....and of course it would all have to depend on one fact....that there will be an alternative energy source (meaning it is readily available for the next few centuries and stable) available before the oil runs out.

now this is just oil i'm talking about...so imagine the situations for other resources...or not.

The other side claims that know oil reserves exceed 200-300 years. Maybe that is why the oil companies are not panicking yet.
I believe it was in 1973 when they started claiming that we would be out of Oil is 25 years. so that argument is getting a little old. I do believe that alternative energy sources should be developed but think the way companies are going about it is stupid. Look at the fuel cell vehicles they are all small and inpratical. I've got a wild idea. build and Fuel Cell engine that can power an Suv or pickup truck.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by mikec918



The other side claims that know oil reserves exceed 200-300 years. Maybe that is why the oil companies are not panicking yet.
I believe it was in 1973 when they started claiming that we would be out of Oil is 25 years. so that argument is getting a little old. I do believe that alternative energy sources should be developed but think the way companies are going about it is stupid. Look at the fuel cell vehicles they are all small and inpratical. I've got a wild idea. build and Fuel Cell engine that can power an Suv or pickup truck.

You're kidding yourself if you think oil companies aren't investing in alternative energy resources, and alternative power systems. Of course they are, they just have zero plans to implement any of it until either
A) the value of oil drops to the point these alternatives will make more money than oil
B) Oil reserves become so scarce that these alternatives will make more money than oil.
In the meantime they, like any economics driven company, are investing the large majority of their money in the most profitable venture (oil, natural gas) and building a market that is going to need all the alternative energy once the fossil fuel supply collapses. Who do you think buys the rights to new solar power and fuel cell technology at well-above market value? - Exxon, Texaco, etc.

As for fuel cell vehicles being small and impractical... well, we have to start somewhere. It's not like we can instantly produce a fuel cell with a 300mi, 200hp potential that's no bigger than a loaf of bread. It's on it's way. It would be on it's way faster if the goverment weren't so influenced by oil companies, and the NSF had better funding, but it's on it's way nonetheless. 5 years from now, your car, your laptop, your cellphone, and possibly your house (depending on location) will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells. 10 years from now, by methanol fuel cells. 12 years from now, you'll be able to substitute vodka for methanol in a pinch. That's not such a long time, is it?

 

[splat]

Originally posted by FlipSide
...or at least among the worst polluting country in the world, isn't it time for the rest of the world to order the US to take measures to stop polluting like that? The USA are always doing whatever they want regarding the international agreements (respecting them or not)...Should we let this situation continue like that?

Actually, China is far worse ! they have several Underground coal fires that have been burning for years that put out More CO2 than all the Cars in the US combinied. On the flip side of that The US has a few of those underground Coal fires too, but none as big as the ones in China.

 

[mikec918]

Originally posted by ohio


You're kidding yourself if you think oil companies aren't investing in alternative energy resources, and alternative power systems. Of course they are, they just have zero plans to implement any of it until either
A) the value of oil drops to the point these alternatives will make more money than oil
B) Oil reserves become so scarce that these alternatives will make more money than oil.
In the meantime they, like any economics driven company, are investing the large majority of their money in the most profitable venture (oil, natural gas) and building a market that is going to need all the alternative energy once the fossil fuel supply collapses. Who do you think buys the rights to new solar power and fuel cell technology at well-above market value? - Exxon, Texaco, etc.

As for fuel cell vehicles being small and impractical... well, we have to start somewhere. It's not like we can instantly produce a fuel cell with a 300mi, 200hp potential that's no bigger than a loaf of bread. It's on it's way. It would be on it's way faster if the goverment weren't so influenced by oil companies, and the NSF had better funding, but it's on it's way nonetheless. 5 years from now, your car, your laptop, your cellphone, and possibly your house (depending on location) will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells. 10 years from now, by methanol fuel cells. 12 years from now, you'll be able to substitute vodka for methanol in a pinch. That's not such a long time, is it?

Thats cool and in 10 years when that happens and I can buy a fuel cell vehicle, that I like and that meets my transportation need and is competively prices I would probable consider buying one.

I liken the comparision of Gasoline power vehicles vs Fuel cell vehicle to that of type writers and PCs. A long time ago when PC cost $ 3000 dollors or so and all it really could do was word processing and a type writer maybe cost $100 for the average user the type writer was the better buy. Now 20-30 year later the PC far more uses then the type writer. Its amazing that it managed to do this without the goverment forceing people to buy it. Its the same thing with Radio vs TV and Cars vrs Horse. Give the people a better product and they will buy it.

 

[VTinCT]

Have any of you seen the movie "After the Warming?" Its by the guy who does the Connections series on Discovery & PBS (its been so long, I've forgotten his name). Its an excellnt look at the possible future of our world/society once we hit that critical point of depletion and toxcity. (yes its educational, no its not boring!)