There IS no one "human nature." Humans are and can be altruistic or selfish depending on circumstance, individual desire, socialization, whatever. (Not to mention the fluid definition of what's important to a person...the immediate family, the clan, the nation, whatever...) There's simply not any way to ensure everyone for all time adheres to a uniform "altruism." People do tend to act in self-interest; whether this self-interest results in altruism or competition is a contextual toss-up.
The Venezuela and South American thread
- Thread starter rockwool
- Start date
There IS no one "human nature." Humans are and can be altruistic or selfish depending on circumstance, individual desire, socialization, whatever. (Not to mention the fluid definition of what's important to a person...the immediate family, the clan, the nation, whatever...) There's simply not any way to ensure everyone for all time adheres to a uniform "altruism." People do tend to act in self-interest; whether this self-interest results in altruism or competition is a contextual toss-up.
I was comparing it to Industrialization, and yes, life was tough and brutal, but the difference between the poor and rich was far shallower in their societies than in ours. It depends on if that was intentional or just happened, and from what I've read, they took care of their poor far better than we do.
I wouldn't want to live there by any means.
Mostly their treatment of the poor, considering how lacking in technology Native American societies were, it is understandable they didn't have hospitals.
Just want to clarify: many indigenous societies were warlike, and I'm not saying that all were altruistic by today's standards, and that shows that greed and selfishness might not be part of the human condition.
Sequitur much?
since we're firing up the wayback machine, why not compare us to cavemen? seems there was no continuum at all - imagine no possessions - it isn't hard to do
far better? howso? by getting direction from pig entrails, or receiving a revelation from a peyote induced mud-hut sweat? edit to add: just b/c they kept their poor at home until they died (unlike a great deal of us who farm them out to gov't programs), isn't fair to make the comparison. it's speculative what they would have chosen if they had the option like we do.
what miked said
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I saw that people were misunderstanding the point I was going for, it may be because of survival, but from what I have read, I haven't come to the conclusion that their altruistic qualities, by modern standards, were purely because of survival and not a cultural influence initiated by the desire to survive.
I haven't found enough proof yet to convince me that all humans are innately greedy and selfish.
What the hell does this have to do with how they treat the poor?
Edit: I think you guys are misunderstanding me, it isn't a non sequitur because some societies have greedy and selfish qualities.
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You said that some societies are warlike, some are not altruistic, and this leads you to believe greed and selfishness are not inherent to humans. Your lead-in doesn't do much for your conclusion.
That said, stop looking for an "answer," because there is none. People have this desire to ascribe Platonic, inherent characteristics to the world, including people. But there are none. This means there's no inherent altruism and there's no inherent selfishness. There is only (to be less glib than this will sound) what there is, with no clear "why" to it all.
Contrary, however, to the conclusion that many draw from the underlying shapelessness of existence, we cannot mold existence into what we desire it to be on any grand scale, such as what Marxists or socialists want.
You can't "solve" war or conflict; you can only mediate it in a specific context. You can't "solve" inequality or poverty or any other less than ideal circumstance as a whole; it will always exist. You can (and we should) mediate it, but we shouldn't entertain illusions that there's a systematic way to abolish the ugly things from the world...we just have to learn how to best live with them.
Native Americans or other tribal societies may have starved as communities instead of as a class within a larger community...I don't see this as morally or practically superior to any other societies.
That's my point, that the argument of human nature is false.
Which means there's nothing to change and no way to get "everyone to reject selfishness" or whatever it was you wanted to do. I do agree, though, that there's no inherent selfishness...but I will say with 100% certainty that there will always be people acting selfishly in the world.
Of course, after the nuclear war, when we're hockey-mask wearing tribes of road warriors, you might find conditions more suitable for your social desires...
Of course, after the nuclear war, when we're hockey-mask wearing tribes of road warriors, you might find conditions more suitable for your social desires...
I am Venezuelan.....kind of. Second generation, my grand parents migrated during the huge boom half way through the 20 century from Lebanon. Cliche story but interesting none the less. Came with nothing, worked hard and ended up with farms, a trucking company, and a store that sold imported goods at various points in their lives. Half of all that was lost at one point or another due to my grandfather's gambling problems. That is what the family calls it, I say he just knew how to enjoy life and understood you can't take it with you when you die. Anyways, eventually it was all lost one way or another. The last family farm was sold to the government cheap and my grandmother was left with 6 kids who take care of her, in the end that is all she needs.
Anyways, that shows you I don't come from an oligarch family. My parents moved to the states when I was 6, however we went back every year and I spent summers there all the way through highschool. My mother was never taught Arabic or knew anything about her Arab background and she is very upset by that. Because of that she was very adamant about instilling in us the Venezuelan culture. Speaking English in the house earned you a smack in the mouth. Speaking to Venezuelans they never know I am a tourist or that I have lived almost my entire life in the US, I travel through the Venezuela unplagued by the stigma of a tourist. It's great.
I think I have a unique insight into the situation in Venezuela. Because the political situation in Venezuela is so polarized, no Chavista will ever tell you that Chavez is an arrogant bastard, and no "Esqualido" will ever admit that Chavez has really revolutionized a region where the poor really had no voice.
Have elections been democratic? My aunt and uncle were a middle class family. Uncle worked as a geologist for the oil companies, aunt has a private medical practice that she barely keeps afloat...not due to lack of patients....but because she spend almost all of her time working in a public hospital. She has worked there 25 years plus. She voted for Chavez 2-3 times, when she saw the same poor conditions in the hospital, the same poverty in Caracas, increasing crime rates, she voted against him in a referendum. Her name was posted publicly and she was black listed. You see, any public worker who votes against Chavez in an election or referendum gets blacklisted, you will no longer be able to work for a public institution.
Same goes for the oil company, anyone who was on strike or signed the petition against Chavez was blacklisted. If a foreign oil company wants to come into Venezuela they are not allowed to hire anyone who was blacklisted.
I think it is very difficult to choose a side in a situation such a Venezuela's. In order to really change things you have to come in with a heavy hand such as Chavez has done. There is no doubt that the CIA and other jackals are working underground to ensure that his public policies and administration fail, and are trying to oust him.
Can you really make a change when corruption is so ingrained in the government and society without taking control of the media (no doubt he is trying to do this), and state owned companies and kicking the opposition out? I really don't know, all I know is what I see.
He has amazing social programs, barrio adentro is a great example. He puts Cuban doctors in the slums, people that have never in their lives seen a doctor have access to GOOD doctors. One of the issues is that Venezuelan doctors who want to do the same program are not paid as much as the Cuban doctors, they do not receive housing or transportation like the Cubans get.
Young professionals are leaving Venezuela in droves. There is no investment into the development of internal professional resources. Venezuela is exporting young professional talent that would other wise help move the country forward. Scientists, engineers, doctors, accountants, etc. are all looking to leave because there is no work.
I think Latin America and Venezuela needed someone like Chavez, however, I think he has done all he can do for the country. He does not have the diplomatic ability to keep things moving forward. The opposition is trenched in and as soon as the US gets the whole Middle East somewhat under control they will be able to focus on Venezuela. With it's huge oil reserve it's only a matter of time before the US has to "defend it's interests".
If you really want to know what is going down in Venezuela just ask me, I will try to answer as best I can. If I don't know I can always find out first hand info.
Interesting watch, it's the first part, I am sure you can link to the rest. Just like with any film certain aspects are romanticized:
If some of you understand spanish I can post some funny videos of Chavez being an arrogant ass. They are really funny, he used to have a radio show where he would speak with individuals that called in. He would note down their problems and demand someone in his cabinet resolve them. It was total buffoonery.
The funniest are his speeches. He is actually an amazing orator, speaking on a subject he will go off on what appears to be a complete tangent, then he somehow bring it back to the point he was making. Usually the tangent will be about history which he is very well versed in.
Some of the idiotic things that have come up for discussion within his cabinet....Simon Bolivar's horse on the crest of the flag is facing the wrong way...he should be facing the other way.
He wanted to build public housing on the golf course of the richest area in Caracas. Completely isolated from where any common man works, no public transportation to and from. He just wanted to piss off rich people, I found it pretty funny, I am sure the rich did not.
He wanted reduce the work week to 6 hours a day....this was actually attached to one of his referendums, a common strategy of his.
I could go on and on.
My favorite Chavez joke: Why is Chavez much like a vagina?
He has curly hair, big lips, and an amazing power of persuasion.
Anyways, that shows you I don't come from an oligarch family. My parents moved to the states when I was 6, however we went back every year and I spent summers there all the way through highschool. My mother was never taught Arabic or knew anything about her Arab background and she is very upset by that. Because of that she was very adamant about instilling in us the Venezuelan culture. Speaking English in the house earned you a smack in the mouth. Speaking to Venezuelans they never know I am a tourist or that I have lived almost my entire life in the US, I travel through the Venezuela unplagued by the stigma of a tourist. It's great.
I think I have a unique insight into the situation in Venezuela. Because the political situation in Venezuela is so polarized, no Chavista will ever tell you that Chavez is an arrogant bastard, and no "Esqualido" will ever admit that Chavez has really revolutionized a region where the poor really had no voice.
Have elections been democratic? My aunt and uncle were a middle class family. Uncle worked as a geologist for the oil companies, aunt has a private medical practice that she barely keeps afloat...not due to lack of patients....but because she spend almost all of her time working in a public hospital. She has worked there 25 years plus. She voted for Chavez 2-3 times, when she saw the same poor conditions in the hospital, the same poverty in Caracas, increasing crime rates, she voted against him in a referendum. Her name was posted publicly and she was black listed. You see, any public worker who votes against Chavez in an election or referendum gets blacklisted, you will no longer be able to work for a public institution.
Same goes for the oil company, anyone who was on strike or signed the petition against Chavez was blacklisted. If a foreign oil company wants to come into Venezuela they are not allowed to hire anyone who was blacklisted.
I think it is very difficult to choose a side in a situation such a Venezuela's. In order to really change things you have to come in with a heavy hand such as Chavez has done. There is no doubt that the CIA and other jackals are working underground to ensure that his public policies and administration fail, and are trying to oust him.
Can you really make a change when corruption is so ingrained in the government and society without taking control of the media (no doubt he is trying to do this), and state owned companies and kicking the opposition out? I really don't know, all I know is what I see.
He has amazing social programs, barrio adentro is a great example. He puts Cuban doctors in the slums, people that have never in their lives seen a doctor have access to GOOD doctors. One of the issues is that Venezuelan doctors who want to do the same program are not paid as much as the Cuban doctors, they do not receive housing or transportation like the Cubans get.
Young professionals are leaving Venezuela in droves. There is no investment into the development of internal professional resources. Venezuela is exporting young professional talent that would other wise help move the country forward. Scientists, engineers, doctors, accountants, etc. are all looking to leave because there is no work.
I think Latin America and Venezuela needed someone like Chavez, however, I think he has done all he can do for the country. He does not have the diplomatic ability to keep things moving forward. The opposition is trenched in and as soon as the US gets the whole Middle East somewhat under control they will be able to focus on Venezuela. With it's huge oil reserve it's only a matter of time before the US has to "defend it's interests".
If you really want to know what is going down in Venezuela just ask me, I will try to answer as best I can. If I don't know I can always find out first hand info.
Interesting watch, it's the first part, I am sure you can link to the rest. Just like with any film certain aspects are romanticized:
If some of you understand spanish I can post some funny videos of Chavez being an arrogant ass. They are really funny, he used to have a radio show where he would speak with individuals that called in. He would note down their problems and demand someone in his cabinet resolve them. It was total buffoonery.
The funniest are his speeches. He is actually an amazing orator, speaking on a subject he will go off on what appears to be a complete tangent, then he somehow bring it back to the point he was making. Usually the tangent will be about history which he is very well versed in.
Some of the idiotic things that have come up for discussion within his cabinet....Simon Bolivar's horse on the crest of the flag is facing the wrong way...he should be facing the other way.
He wanted to build public housing on the golf course of the richest area in Caracas. Completely isolated from where any common man works, no public transportation to and from. He just wanted to piss off rich people, I found it pretty funny, I am sure the rich did not.
He wanted reduce the work week to 6 hours a day....this was actually attached to one of his referendums, a common strategy of his.
I could go on and on.
My favorite Chavez joke: Why is Chavez much like a vagina?
He has curly hair, big lips, and an amazing power of persuasion.
Hey, look...perspective!
Thanks for joining in, nice to hear of your experiance and your will to view things objecitvely, the pictures were also nice!
Maybe you can help me puncture some of the lies and general views of miss/dissinformation floting around?
Like one for instance, JohnE who thought that because there isn't a Venezuelan present at our forum, it must mean that the Chavez gvmnt restricts internet access in a similar way the Chinise gvmnt does. Is that true?
Seems to me that your grandma is asking of this government to deal with all problems V has, that haven't been dealt with during decades or rule by the two old parties (that always were in power), in just 10 years time?!!
The black listing is wrong, but at the same time it can be understod because of the special situation that threatens the free society of Venezuela. I can share a similar thing that happened in Sweden throughout the cold war, where the secret police black listed all members of any communistic party, and in some cases Social Democrat members who were thought they might cause some sort of "trouble" within the unions!
In resent years this has become known and that it has hindered them in getting work at some regular, non clearance required, jobs. I, my self have been rejected by the secret police to join the national guard, due my parents were communist/feminist activists. This happened even though I was demobilized with excellent grades from the artic rangers.
The Soviets were never a true threat as they were all about defence, their military offensive purposes were just lies from the military industrial complex and every body else who benefitted from having frightened, and therefore easy ruled, masses. Venezuelas democratic society has on the other hand, as you recognized your self, for 10 years now been destibilized by the CIA and their inhouse traitors in noumerous ways.
The April 2002 coupe, and the 2002-2003 three month lockout/sabotage of their countrys economy and companies, are reasons heavy enough by their own to allow this controll of personell. It's a soverign state, and a democratic and free society on top of that, protecting its self from foreign intervention/invasion.
As far as the media, it is a pure lie! All media outputs, TV and press alike, were allowed to continue after the 2002 coupe that they actively supported! Non of them lost their licence because of participating in the subversion of their society! Non of them, or the key individuals involved, were even tried for treason etc! THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN OVERLOOKED BY ANY WESTERN DEMOCRACY!
Out of 8 (or is it 9) TV stations (only national counted?) supported the coupe actively by only showing the demonstrations/rallies of the opposition. They all participated in the RCTV orchestraded lie about gvmnt snipers fiering at friendly opposition emonstratiors! They all were showing soaps and cartoons instead of reporting on the rise up of the Venezuelan people against the coupe leaders in Carracas!
In 2007 RCTV's licence to transmit through air waves was lost after years of countless warnings from the radio and TV body (an independent body BTW). Their licence wasn't renewed when it expired and their space was given to a community controled national TV station. RCTV is still alowed to transmit radio and cable/internet TV!
In fact, the only TV station that's been controlled/closed in Venezuela was the one and only state controled national TV station, aswell as all state controlled regional/national radio and TV stations, by the coupe leaders.
Check the Independent article on page 1, and more so watch this real time documentary of the coupe (by two Irishmen and no Chavistas BTW) for correct and non biased information on what went down during those days and how Venezuelan media is as a whole.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHPPpL9z9GE
Anybody who has seen this documentary and still continues to talk **** about the Chavez gvmnt controlling the media might as well start denying the Jewish holocaust happened. If you lot don't watch it, you're denying evidence, and thus forsaken your right to sit in a jury. Enough!
Maybe you can help me puncture some of the lies and general views of miss/dissinformation floting around?
Like one for instance, JohnE who thought that because there isn't a Venezuelan present at our forum, it must mean that the Chavez gvmnt restricts internet access in a similar way the Chinise gvmnt does. Is that true?
A classical and sad aspect of humanity, we view our political parties the same way we view our football teams; In rain or shine our team is the best and all losses are the fault of the referee.. Fresh life/blood is always needed, that's why I've for the last three elections voted for non parliamentary parties.
Can we once and for all agree that Venezuela isn't a dictatorship, but infact a democracy with elections that have been proven fair by various organizations?
Seems to me that your grandma is asking of this government to deal with all problems V has, that haven't been dealt with during decades or rule by the two old parties (that always were in power), in just 10 years time?!!
The black listing is wrong, but at the same time it can be understod because of the special situation that threatens the free society of Venezuela. I can share a similar thing that happened in Sweden throughout the cold war, where the secret police black listed all members of any communistic party, and in some cases Social Democrat members who were thought they might cause some sort of "trouble" within the unions!
In resent years this has become known and that it has hindered them in getting work at some regular, non clearance required, jobs. I, my self have been rejected by the secret police to join the national guard, due my parents were communist/feminist activists. This happened even though I was demobilized with excellent grades from the artic rangers.
The Soviets were never a true threat as they were all about defence, their military offensive purposes were just lies from the military industrial complex and every body else who benefitted from having frightened, and therefore easy ruled, masses. Venezuelas democratic society has on the other hand, as you recognized your self, for 10 years now been destibilized by the CIA and their inhouse traitors in noumerous ways.
The April 2002 coupe, and the 2002-2003 three month lockout/sabotage of their countrys economy and companies, are reasons heavy enough by their own to allow this controll of personell. It's a soverign state, and a democratic and free society on top of that, protecting its self from foreign intervention/invasion.
As I wrote above, they've prooven them selves as collaborators of a hostile foreign power. The democracy of el pueblo overcame.
Thank you!
I consider the explanation for taking control ower state owned companies to have been expalined above.
As far as the media, it is a pure lie! All media outputs, TV and press alike, were allowed to continue after the 2002 coupe that they actively supported! Non of them lost their licence because of participating in the subversion of their society! Non of them, or the key individuals involved, were even tried for treason etc! THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN OVERLOOKED BY ANY WESTERN DEMOCRACY!
Out of 8 (or is it 9) TV stations (only national counted?) supported the coupe actively by only showing the demonstrations/rallies of the opposition. They all participated in the RCTV orchestraded lie about gvmnt snipers fiering at friendly opposition emonstratiors! They all were showing soaps and cartoons instead of reporting on the rise up of the Venezuelan people against the coupe leaders in Carracas!
In 2007 RCTV's licence to transmit through air waves was lost after years of countless warnings from the radio and TV body (an independent body BTW). Their licence wasn't renewed when it expired and their space was given to a community controled national TV station. RCTV is still alowed to transmit radio and cable/internet TV!
In fact, the only TV station that's been controlled/closed in Venezuela was the one and only state controled national TV station, aswell as all state controlled regional/national radio and TV stations, by the coupe leaders.
Check the Independent article on page 1, and more so watch this real time documentary of the coupe (by two Irishmen and no Chavistas BTW) for correct and non biased information on what went down during those days and how Venezuelan media is as a whole.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHPPpL9z9GE
Anybody who has seen this documentary and still continues to talk **** about the Chavez gvmnt controlling the media might as well start denying the Jewish holocaust happened. If you lot don't watch it, you're denying evidence, and thus forsaken your right to sit in a jury. Enough!
All those Venezuelan doctors who during all those decades have refused to set their foot in the barrios, because it doesen't become their snotty überclass asses, are now complaining that they don't have any work? Who the F*ck were they treating during all these years, I wonder? Cuban doctors treat those who didn't have the mercy of those middle class cvnts now complaining about loss of work.
I also want to recollect taht Cuba payes for their doctors and teachers(but I'm not 100% in this case), and that they intern for their services get paid in oil. 99% sertain of that.
Of what I've read, and also some are linked to in this article, the Chavez gvmnt is expanding their society in a lot of ways and not only relying to oil revenues. Agricultural, mechanical, technincal, mining, etc, know how is comming from countries like Brazil and Iran, for instance.
Know how fleeing the country towards richer countries is a thing all poorer nations have in common. I doubt Chavez who has proven him self to expand the know-how and versatility of his country, is closing down those very same sections of the economy, it's illogical...
I disagree, domestically the Bolivarian revolution has had a total of 15 missions, similar to the one you've mentioned (the Cuban doctors caring for the slum), that are on their way to change the society as it's known. Are all problems already sloved after 10yrs, you mean, or has his well of ideas dried all of a sudden?
Internationally wise, you're lacking in adequate data. Chavez has continously strenghtened his ties with the whole of S.A., including most recently with Colombia's Uribe, OPEC member countries, the 80 Non Aligned Countries, Ken Livingstone, the Spaniards.
The only ones that don't go well with him is the Empire and those wicked countried supporting/participating in their exploitation of the poor nations and their inhabitants (some EU members mostly). So what are you saying, that the Venezuelans should hand over their soverignty to the Empire so that they will be somewhat spared when the wicked find a way to start a third simultanious war?
Your insight is welcomed and you seem to want to see all things good and bad on both sides! Although, some here have stated that, for instance, only a Swede can really know what's going down in Sweden, and not recognizing that party politics are usually what is behind ones interpetation/admittance of things occuring. I hope you don't agree with that.
To hell with the golfers, stingy arrogant egoistic carnivores.
6 hour working day is not only a good strategy, it's a caring thing to do for those who can't afford a house cleaner, a cook, a special tudor, etc, and have to do all the house work them selves. On top of that they have to study with their kids, and rase them to be good and lucky human beings for the rest of their lives.
Simultainiously that creates more jobs, and therefore less despare and crime. A 6 hour working day will have a positive ling time effect on a society like no other thing.
But his perspective is speaking against yours in most things..
oster_oops:
Yes, but his perspective is firsthand, learned from actually being there and doing that. Unlike yours, which is gleaned from reading propaganda put out by the party apparatchik of the oligarchy masquerading as a workers paradise...
I dont think jmvar thinks as highly of Chavez and his doings as you think he does. Go back and read his input again. Dont drink any Kool-Ade before or during your reading. Your reading seems tainted by your hatred for America, and all things GWHB.
Chavez is no better than Bush. They are both rich f@cks who have continued to enrich themselves off the sweat and toil of the working class. Yes, they have both spewed enough pablum and started programs to make the sheeple feel better about their lot in life to make themselves almost look good when the harsh light of the historical perspective is cast on them, but in the end they are both criminals...
"Can we once and for all agree that Venezuela isn't a dictatorship, but infact a democracy with elections that have been proven fair by various organizations?"
True democracies dont blacklist those who vote against the ruling party. Dissent is a priviledge treasured in a true democracy. Its one of the few things we have left here, even though the GOP is trying its best quash it.
Once again, agreeing to disagree...
Except for the part about the golfers. I hate golf and golfers. Mark Twain once said "Golf is a good walk spoiled". Arrogant f@cktards...stingy arrogant egoistic carnivores!
I dont think jmvar thinks as highly of Chavez and his doings as you think he does. Go back and read his input again. Dont drink any Kool-Ade before or during your reading. Your reading seems tainted by your hatred for America, and all things GWHB.
Chavez is no better than Bush. They are both rich f@cks who have continued to enrich themselves off the sweat and toil of the working class. Yes, they have both spewed enough pablum and started programs to make the sheeple feel better about their lot in life to make themselves almost look good when the harsh light of the historical perspective is cast on them, but in the end they are both criminals...
"Can we once and for all agree that Venezuela isn't a dictatorship, but infact a democracy with elections that have been proven fair by various organizations?"
True democracies dont blacklist those who vote against the ruling party. Dissent is a priviledge treasured in a true democracy. Its one of the few things we have left here, even though the GOP is trying its best quash it.
Once again, agreeing to disagree...
Except for the part about the golfers. I hate golf and golfers. Mark Twain once said "Golf is a good walk spoiled". Arrogant f@cktards...stingy arrogant egoistic carnivores!
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are you still incapable or unwilling to stop blindly following in the repub hatred & bigotry? (i say "following" b/c clearly you demonstrate no leadership abilities).American Center for Voting Rights said:
what happened in your past? were you twaddled by a catholic senator in the back of a christian science reading room?
Off topic for a moment:
Now, back to the fun...
I don;t like golf but some of my best friends play golf. They don't mountain bike, but don't hate me for being one. Arrogant, yes. Stingy..why? Because they're spending the money they earned or received to do what they want instead of handing it out to some poor person? Possibly. Egotistic? I'm pretty sure unless you're on TV playing golf, it's a humbling game. But it is a good walk, spoiled. Carnivores? WTF does that have to do with anything.
Now, back to the fun...
Stinkle, well done! No one can profane a relatively well mannered post like you. Why stoop to insults and cheap shots? Have I offended your delicate sensibilites in some way? If so, HTFU. You posted an interesting link to some apparently bona fide voter fraud happening in this country, and then in the true spirit of the internet weakling/slash bully, you insult me. A person you dont know from Adam. Again, well done!
Further, if you read my post that offended you for comprehension, instead of for knee jerk, you would have seen that I said a "True democracy"...no where did I state that the US is one.
RW seems an intelligent and well read type who is alternately interesting and confounding, and I enjoy the forth and back that he brings to the PWN. You will notice that he has not once lowered or debased himself (That I have seen or found...) to the point where he resorts to insults or obsenity. No matter how many times he has been prodded.
He seems a commited Marxist, and I am a commited realist.
And X3, my biggest problem with golf is that I cant play to save my life...my attitude towards it (And golfers.) is a coping mechanism.
Further, if you read my post that offended you for comprehension, instead of for knee jerk, you would have seen that I said a "True democracy"...no where did I state that the US is one.
RW seems an intelligent and well read type who is alternately interesting and confounding, and I enjoy the forth and back that he brings to the PWN. You will notice that he has not once lowered or debased himself (That I have seen or found...) to the point where he resorts to insults or obsenity. No matter how many times he has been prodded.
He seems a commited Marxist, and I am a commited realist.
And X3, my biggest problem with golf is that I cant play to save my life...my attitude towards it (And golfers.) is a coping mechanism.
Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but did you READ jmvar's post?
i have no idea how you have survived your enlistment(s) in the Air Force with that attitude.
I have no problem with golf, but golf courses are some of the worst environmental atrocities ever foisted on pristine forestland, clean waterways, and limited freshwater supplies justified only because they cater to an elite that can afford such destruction because they think it looks pretty and is fun. It is the worst kind of manufactured Mickey-Mouse/Truman-Show fantasy land. Thankfully, more and more course designers are starting to use the landscape and resources natively available... when that trend becomes universal, I'll stop the hate.
Fvck golf. Fvck it right in its stupid ass.
Like Bush, he reads only the parts he likes.
Hey, Chavez is getting rid of that pesky middle class and giving handouts to the poor. To a self-hating bourgeois Swede, that's .75 of the way to paradise! Viva la revolucion!
I too like too lash out at some others every now and then...Off topic for a moment:
I don;t like golf but some of my best friends play golf. They don't mountain bike, but don't hate me for being one. Arrogant, yes. Stingy..why? Because they're spending the money they earned or received to do what they want instead of handing it out to some poor person? Possibly. Egotistic? I'm pretty sure unless you're on TV playing golf, it's a humbling game. But it is a good walk, spoiled. Carnivores? WTF does that have to do with anything.
Now, back to the fun...
It's really nothing that a fifth of tequila, a key of blow, and a few hookers couldn't fix. You might get some funny looks on the 16th green...but at least they'll let you play the back nine...
The more I drink, the better I golf. The more I golf, the better I drink...
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3643
Interesting development, I'm sure that the U.S will be desperately fighting to make sure Costa Rica won't be joining it.
sure hope this doesn't affect my current plans to spend 10 days there next summer.
has anyone given any thought of whitey?
Hehe, and I who was about to help you answer $tinkle by reminding him of all the things that are considered natural in a democracy, things that Bush has deprived you of since 911, through Patriot Act, Internet 1 and 2, etc. But you managed him just fine by your self.
BTW, these depravations have sadly taken a tour around the world since then. Three weeks ago the right wing coalition in Sweden voted through a law that allows our equivalent of your NSA (I think) to evesdrop on all calls, emails, sms', anything transmitted electronically. Even though EVERYBODY was against it; the police, secret police, lawyers guild, all political youth organizations, parliamentary investigations, everybody but for the defence ministry. NSDAP rules my country, I'm telling you..
Thank you for all the kind words! If I may speculate, I belive the confounding part that you find in me is that my beliefs are many times entirely contradicting to everything you normally get to hear. That to me says alot of how one sided and kapitalist dominated news coverage is in the west, and actually in the whole world.
And I'm not a Marxist. Truth is I'm not THAT well read to call my self anything THAT defined (although one of the two parties I voted for in the last election is Trotskist). To me the political scale has not only one axle, but two. Right - Left, and, Authoritarian - Antiauthoritarian.
I don't belive in Libertarianism because we can't "leave things to their own (market etc)", as people can't get informed enough to be left to make all choices correctly according to their values. Mankind isn't that clever, we're actually pretty lazy as almost nobody consumes consiously (cus it's too much of a hastle to obtain that knowledge), so "the magic hand" will lever fix things to the better per automatique.
Nor do I wanna preserve our society as it is, and only develop slowly (or even return to days past) like the conservatives want, as our present is sheit, and our past is waaay worse. I want to progress. Look at nature, it evolves all the time, it never stays, if it freezes it gets some woolen undies on, like quick.
In our societies this progression in natural when it comes to technical stuff, but not when it comes to us individuals. Once we finish school we (the majority) resort to reading sports, tabloids and evening papers (at best). All around me I see fear of searching ones own head, admitting our stains and faults, and thus enabeling us to develop like humans.
Nor does progression seem natural to apply to our democracies. They're representative, no strive towards greater participation, they tell us that voting every 4 years (or so) is all the democracy there can be. Democratisizing our democracies is unthinkable, any critism on them and they might brake. A lid on is put on the information from participatory democracies.
Progression is the way of nature. I belive in socialism, not only because it wants the society to change, but because it acknowledges that all people are different, our abilities, talents, strengths, and weaknesses. We all need help some time in some thing, we're all weak some time. We're not meant to compete against each other, but to complement. "Every one of us according to our abilities, to each and one of us according to our needs". Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, so therefore I don't belive in a "well meaning intelectual elite that will cater for the working class".
That is a realist observation, don't you think?
No worries, man, I read it AND the Independent article, AND watched The Television Will Not Be Televised, AND generally read anything I can find on V.
Bottom line: we all have views (that we're hopfully expressing truthfully) who we have obtained through different experianses and intake of information. If you ask me a thing about Sweden, I won't be the natural truth on all things Sweden. I will only be telling it from a perspective from my political beliefs and knowledge. I've been wrong, unadequately informed about things Swedish, etc, before. I expect the same thing out of anybody about anything.
Remember, I'm as much Greek as Jmvar is Venezuelan. I'm no oracle when it comes to Greece eather.
Yeh, cus in some circles self critisism is dangerous.. I'm working class mate, all the way, I curse, fart, blisters in my hands, dirty, sneakers to all type of cloth, 22 year old car, knocked out tooth, scarfaced, hate on Babylon, the whole deal. :beerjam:
I dare you to show examples of me being a homophobe in that thread. The reason I took a lot of punches in that thread was because I stayed throughout it's whole duration, and not just left after dissing undies for DH once or twice, but more so because I posted that thread from a gay forum.Fixed, see skinsuit thread.
There it was in black and white, gays saying what clothing is considered to be gay by them selves, and not even a single person dared comment on that post. Not one! But they got triggered alright...
The US is losing face by every month passing, wonder when the 5th fleet will engage in battle..
And some politicians also claimed a similar type of "bribery" about the Chavez gvmnts discounted heating oil to poor US Americans. It's impossible to belive that politicians aren't aware that solidarity is an important part of socialism. No doubt, a big part of the hate towards Chavez is because he makes them look and feel like the stingy selfinterested crooks they are.
And Jmvar, here's another excellent article showing how Chavez keep things "moving forward" and how a good diplomat/leader he is among other Carribean nations. I don't see these stories like this one published by Swedish or international media. There's a continous positive news blackout from Venezuela and Cuba, leading to the general publics distorted views of these countries (and their leaders). That's why I said that "you lack in data".
So if you disagree with his post based on those other sources, then disagree with him. But you read his post and then declared it proved your point of view, which makes you either insane, untruthful, or just lacking comprehension. Take your pick.
His perspective is first hand, and indeed I think he is speaking honestly and doesn't try to be biased towards either side, but in one of my posts above I explained to Ohio that I, or anybody, else don't automaticly qualify as an oracle when it comes to Sweden or Greece.
About the Chavez gvmnt being crooks, I can only answer that by showing more of all the good things they're doing. Their actions speak of who they are.
Jmvar said that Chavez done lots of good and that he had been nessesary for V, but that he now thought C had done his part, as he had run out of ideas, and that it was time for someone else. He didn't specify from which party or what type of politics that should be. He also said other, both positive and negative, stuff.
I know I critisize the US alot, and as you're a really nationalistic bunch of people you have been offended or irritated by this. Hate has been spoken of alot, but not love. Why is it so that one nessesarily has to hate one side, while there's no mention of love/like for the other? Generally there's a lot more talk of hate in your country than there is in mine! Why? Is it used to silence critisism? Is it effective in doing so?
I like a lot of things that come out of the US, products and culture alike. As a people you're easy going, social, good on pepping others on a sloap etc, and you know that any good story needs a healthy portion of exaggeration. Policy wise, domestic aswell but more so foreign, your governments....well, they suck 95% of the time, to say it plainly without going into details now. You live in an extreme society, with extreme ideas towards the right. Your left (the Dem's) are more to the right than Swedens "rightest" party, the Moderates (liberal gvmnt coalition leaders and former konservatives).
Foreign policy wise, there aren't any real differances between the (your) two, they both have "US interests" on their minds, which means they don't have the Swedes (for instance) interests on their minds. THAT, I can not like. We've got a sovereign nation of our own, elected our own gvment, not your gvmnt, therefore if a US president acted in Sweden it would be an act of a dictator. There's nothing to like about that. You wouldn't accept it, nobody should.
Chill, lets keep this open, history is in the making, and we're not fully informed of the past as it is. You could be right about Chavez (he was born in a mud and tin hut BTW), and you could be wrong, open eyes and time will tell.
The US has practicly declared war against Venezuela. They haven't launched an occupational force yet, but their black ops (read CIA and collaborators) are subverting the country for years now. That is a special situation that has, without doubt, caused things to be different than they normally would. All actions have their reactions, it's nature.
As an action the blacklisting would be objectionable, but it's not an action, it's a reaction, and US propaganda benefits from it as they in this case don't even have to make up a lie about Venezuela.
Disagreement I'm fine with, just as long as we keep our minds open to new info.
I've answered this in another post. You go ahead and do your duty as a member of a jury and listen to the defendant now:
I just found this quote in an aticle about candidate discualifications for the upcomming regional elections in Novermber.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3646
I liked the part where the opposition candidate for mayor, Oscar Perez, claimed that the articles 42 and 65 of the constitution were implying in this case. I find it very typical for the continous dissinformation from the opposition that they claim and point to something that is a complete lie, knowing that the general public won't search those articles up, and that later in serve as a vague, but still exsistant, memory of "and what about that time with the discalifications, they were against the constitution".
This part where the corrupted assholes "do not contest the administrative infraction for which they are sanctioned" is another beauty. :biggrin:
As I remember the effects of playing "the wisper game" in kindergarten, and know how the Venezuelan and western opposition media have been reporting pure lies and half truths most of the time, and to add the findings of this article above, I'd like Jmvar to show me some proof of those claimed black listings.
As I see it right now, the claimed black listings are the same as the ones above, and that "the wisper game" has played us once again.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3646
I liked the part where the opposition candidate for mayor, Oscar Perez, claimed that the articles 42 and 65 of the constitution were implying in this case. I find it very typical for the continous dissinformation from the opposition that they claim and point to something that is a complete lie, knowing that the general public won't search those articles up, and that later in serve as a vague, but still exsistant, memory of "and what about that time with the discalifications, they were against the constitution".
This part where the corrupted assholes "do not contest the administrative infraction for which they are sanctioned" is another beauty. :biggrin:
As I remember the effects of playing "the wisper game" in kindergarten, and know how the Venezuelan and western opposition media have been reporting pure lies and half truths most of the time, and to add the findings of this article above, I'd like Jmvar to show me some proof of those claimed black listings.
As I see it right now, the claimed black listings are the same as the ones above, and that "the wisper game" has played us once again.
EDIT: For truth seekers, strongheaded bridge burners, who dare confront that they've been living in, and beliving in lies, watchesitz:
What a pinko commie.
He's arrogant, he deserved it.
To ensure a free press, of course..
Read below.
Punter:
The general's statment on TV, which we filmed in your house.
The Commentator, while laughing and showing he had nothing to do with the coup:
No! You just happened to call in with some photos for the show. I'm a journalist!
Punter:
So we shot the video in your house. The generals video statement was to make Chavez stay in Venezuela...
...Because Chavez had a trip planed to Costa Rica, and we needed him here for the plan to work. So then Chavez stayed here and we activated the plan.
Commentator:
What was the plan?
Admiral:
The plan was to get people on the street. And when things reached their peak, to activate the army.[/QUOTE]
Is that your meaning of free press?
The people of the USA?
Ortega, A cronie:
President Chavez must be tried according to the law. Not only for violating human rights...
...But for repressing freedom of expression.[/QUOTE]
Before they shut down on freedom and democracy propperly.
Sure he was.
Justice, ezuality, solidarity, and social responsibility, he said?
More valuable than a referendum? If that isn't pissing on people then I don't know what.
During the rest of the coup Channel 8 remained closed and so did all regional TV and radio stations that were state run.
The spanish CNN was a part of the media coup.
I concur.
This **** sure took it's time but it was worth it..
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Yes there are interwebz in Venezuela. However, Chavez has pretty much outlawed Ridemonkey and has forced Venezuelan mountain bikers to exclusively use Pinkbike. The reason for this is so that drops in Venezula can me measured in Pinkbike feet as opposed to the more realistic Ridemonkey feet.
Going a step further, Chavez has formed a private committee that censors the word "feet", the symbol " ' " (that signifies feet), "ft", and "ft." automatically changing it to meters further inflating the egos of Venezuelan riders who love to defy gravity.
In the US the biggest drop I have done is probably the deck drop at Diablo which measure 4-5 Ridemonkey feet. When I got to Venezuela I can use the standard Pinkbike equation PB Drop ft. = (actual feet) x 1.5 + (rear travel)*.5 and then turn that into meters....netting 11 meters for me from this drop (not me in pic, I choose to drop towards earth with wheels perfectly straight and no style while praying I make it out alive).
Going a step further, Chavez has formed a private committee that censors the word "feet", the symbol " ' " (that signifies feet), "ft", and "ft." automatically changing it to meters further inflating the egos of Venezuelan riders who love to defy gravity.
In the US the biggest drop I have done is probably the deck drop at Diablo which measure 4-5 Ridemonkey feet. When I got to Venezuela I can use the standard Pinkbike equation PB Drop ft. = (actual feet) x 1.5 + (rear travel)*.5 and then turn that into meters....netting 11 meters for me from this drop (not me in pic, I choose to drop towards earth with wheels perfectly straight and no style while praying I make it out alive).
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