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MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
456
chez moi
If that altruism came from a need to survive, then human nature isn't greed and selfishness.

There IS no one "human nature." Humans are and can be altruistic or selfish depending on circumstance, individual desire, socialization, whatever. (Not to mention the fluid definition of what's important to a person...the immediate family, the clan, the nation, whatever...) There's simply not any way to ensure everyone for all time adheres to a uniform "altruism." People do tend to act in self-interest; whether this self-interest results in altruism or competition is a contextual toss-up.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
it would be superfluous to say "subjective altruism", as miked has pointed out. case in point: gangs view themselves as altruistic, but at a heavy costs that playahaytas pay

amor del rey!
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
If you compared these NA societies to tribal societies in early Europe, rather than something from the feudal era, I think you'd find much the same thing. But life in either was probably nasty, brutish, and short by our standards, regardless of any revisionist/pastoralist/idealist modern glaze we might put on it.
I was comparing it to Industrialization, and yes, life was tough and brutal, but the difference between the poor and rich was far shallower in their societies than in ours. It depends on if that was intentional or just happened, and from what I've read, they took care of their poor far better than we do.

I wouldn't want to live there by any means.

by what measure? adoption? institutionalized care for the poor, mentally unfit, elderly, & sick? civil rights?
Mostly their treatment of the poor, considering how lacking in technology Native American societies were, it is understandable they didn't have hospitals.

Just want to clarify: many indigenous societies were warlike, and I'm not saying that all were altruistic by today's standards, and that shows that greed and selfishness might not be part of the human condition.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
456
chez moi
Just want to clarify: many indigenous societies were warlike, and I'm not saying that all were altruistic by today's standards, and that shows that greed and selfishness might not be part of the human condition.
Sequitur much?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
I was comparing it to Industrialization, and yes, life was tough and brutal, but the difference between the poor and rich was far shallower in their societies than in ours.
since we're firing up the wayback machine, why not compare us to cavemen? seems there was no continuum at all - imagine no possessions - it isn't hard to do
It depends on if that was intentional or just happened, and from what I've read, they took care of their poor far better than we do.
far better? howso? by getting direction from pig entrails, or receiving a revelation from a peyote induced mud-hut sweat? edit to add: just b/c they kept their poor at home until they died (unlike a great deal of us who farm them out to gov't programs), isn't fair to make the comparison. it's speculative what they would have chosen if they had the option like we do.
Just want to clarify: many indigenous societies were warlike, and I'm not saying that all were altruistic by today's standards, and that shows that greed and selfishness might not be part of the human condition.
what miked said
 
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Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Sequitur much?
I saw that people were misunderstanding the point I was going for, it may be because of survival, but from what I have read, I haven't come to the conclusion that their altruistic qualities, by modern standards, were purely because of survival and not a cultural influence initiated by the desire to survive.

I haven't found enough proof yet to convince me that all humans are innately greedy and selfish.

far better? howso? by getting direction from pig entrails, or receiving a revelation from a peyote induced mud-hut sweat?
What the hell does this have to do with how they treat the poor?

Edit: I think you guys are misunderstanding me, it isn't a non sequitur because some societies have greedy and selfish qualities.
 
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MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
456
chez moi
I haven't found enough proof yet to convince me that all humans are innately greedy and selfish.

Edit: I think you guys are misunderstanding me, it isn't a non sequitur because some societies have greedy and selfish qualities.
You said that some societies are warlike, some are not altruistic, and this leads you to believe greed and selfishness are not inherent to humans. Your lead-in doesn't do much for your conclusion.

That said, stop looking for an "answer," because there is none. People have this desire to ascribe Platonic, inherent characteristics to the world, including people. But there are none. This means there's no inherent altruism and there's no inherent selfishness. There is only (to be less glib than this will sound) what there is, with no clear "why" to it all.

Contrary, however, to the conclusion that many draw from the underlying shapelessness of existence, we cannot mold existence into what we desire it to be on any grand scale, such as what Marxists or socialists want.

You can't "solve" war or conflict; you can only mediate it in a specific context. You can't "solve" inequality or poverty or any other less than ideal circumstance as a whole; it will always exist. You can (and we should) mediate it, but we shouldn't entertain illusions that there's a systematic way to abolish the ugly things from the world...we just have to learn how to best live with them.

Native Americans or other tribal societies may have starved as communities instead of as a class within a larger community...I don't see this as morally or practically superior to any other societies.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
That said, stop looking for an "answer," because there is none. People have this desire to ascribe Platonic, inherent characteristics to the world, including people. But there are none. This means there's no inherent altruism and there's no inherent selfishness. There is only (to be less glib than this will sound) what there is, with no clear "why" to it all.
That's my point, that the argument of human nature is false.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
456
chez moi
Which means there's nothing to change and no way to get "everyone to reject selfishness" or whatever it was you wanted to do. I do agree, though, that there's no inherent selfishness...but I will say with 100% certainty that there will always be people acting selfishly in the world.

Of course, after the nuclear war, when we're hockey-mask wearing tribes of road warriors, you might find conditions more suitable for your social desires...
 

jmvar

Monkey
Aug 16, 2002
414
0
"It was a funny angle!"
I am Venezuelan.....kind of. Second generation, my grand parents migrated during the huge boom half way through the 20 century from Lebanon. Cliche story but interesting none the less. Came with nothing, worked hard and ended up with farms, a trucking company, and a store that sold imported goods at various points in their lives. Half of all that was lost at one point or another due to my grandfather's gambling problems. That is what the family calls it, I say he just knew how to enjoy life and understood you can't take it with you when you die. Anyways, eventually it was all lost one way or another. The last family farm was sold to the government cheap and my grandmother was left with 6 kids who take care of her, in the end that is all she needs.

Anyways, that shows you I don't come from an oligarch family. My parents moved to the states when I was 6, however we went back every year and I spent summers there all the way through highschool. My mother was never taught Arabic or knew anything about her Arab background and she is very upset by that. Because of that she was very adamant about instilling in us the Venezuelan culture. Speaking English in the house earned you a smack in the mouth. Speaking to Venezuelans they never know I am a tourist or that I have lived almost my entire life in the US, I travel through the Venezuela unplagued by the stigma of a tourist. It's great.

I think I have a unique insight into the situation in Venezuela. Because the political situation in Venezuela is so polarized, no Chavista will ever tell you that Chavez is an arrogant bastard, and no "Esqualido" will ever admit that Chavez has really revolutionized a region where the poor really had no voice.

Have elections been democratic? My aunt and uncle were a middle class family. Uncle worked as a geologist for the oil companies, aunt has a private medical practice that she barely keeps afloat...not due to lack of patients....but because she spend almost all of her time working in a public hospital. She has worked there 25 years plus. She voted for Chavez 2-3 times, when she saw the same poor conditions in the hospital, the same poverty in Caracas, increasing crime rates, she voted against him in a referendum. Her name was posted publicly and she was black listed. You see, any public worker who votes against Chavez in an election or referendum gets blacklisted, you will no longer be able to work for a public institution.

Same goes for the oil company, anyone who was on strike or signed the petition against Chavez was blacklisted. If a foreign oil company wants to come into Venezuela they are not allowed to hire anyone who was blacklisted.

I think it is very difficult to choose a side in a situation such a Venezuela's. In order to really change things you have to come in with a heavy hand such as Chavez has done. There is no doubt that the CIA and other jackals are working underground to ensure that his public policies and administration fail, and are trying to oust him.

Can you really make a change when corruption is so ingrained in the government and society without taking control of the media (no doubt he is trying to do this), and state owned companies and kicking the opposition out? I really don't know, all I know is what I see.

He has amazing social programs, barrio adentro is a great example. He puts Cuban doctors in the slums, people that have never in their lives seen a doctor have access to GOOD doctors. One of the issues is that Venezuelan doctors who want to do the same program are not paid as much as the Cuban doctors, they do not receive housing or transportation like the Cubans get.

Young professionals are leaving Venezuela in droves. There is no investment into the development of internal professional resources. Venezuela is exporting young professional talent that would other wise help move the country forward. Scientists, engineers, doctors, accountants, etc. are all looking to leave because there is no work.

I think Latin America and Venezuela needed someone like Chavez, however, I think he has done all he can do for the country. He does not have the diplomatic ability to keep things moving forward. The opposition is trenched in and as soon as the US gets the whole Middle East somewhat under control they will be able to focus on Venezuela. With it's huge oil reserve it's only a matter of time before the US has to "defend it's interests".

If you really want to know what is going down in Venezuela just ask me, I will try to answer as best I can. If I don't know I can always find out first hand info.

Interesting watch, it's the first part, I am sure you can link to the rest. Just like with any film certain aspects are romanticized:

If some of you understand spanish I can post some funny videos of Chavez being an arrogant ass. They are really funny, he used to have a radio show where he would speak with individuals that called in. He would note down their problems and demand someone in his cabinet resolve them. It was total buffoonery.

The funniest are his speeches. He is actually an amazing orator, speaking on a subject he will go off on what appears to be a complete tangent, then he somehow bring it back to the point he was making. Usually the tangent will be about history which he is very well versed in.

Some of the idiotic things that have come up for discussion within his cabinet....Simon Bolivar's horse on the crest of the flag is facing the wrong way...he should be facing the other way.

He wanted to build public housing on the golf course of the richest area in Caracas. Completely isolated from where any common man works, no public transportation to and from. He just wanted to piss off rich people, I found it pretty funny, I am sure the rich did not.

He wanted reduce the work week to 6 hours a day....this was actually attached to one of his referendums, a common strategy of his.

I could go on and on.

My favorite Chavez joke: Why is Chavez much like a vagina?

He has curly hair, big lips, and an amazing power of persuasion.







 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
Thanks for joining in, nice to hear of your experiance and your will to view things objecitvely, the pictures were also nice!

Maybe you can help me puncture some of the lies and general views of miss/dissinformation floting around?

Like one for instance, JohnE who thought that because there isn't a Venezuelan present at our forum, it must mean that the Chavez gvmnt restricts internet access in a similar way the Chinise gvmnt does. Is that true?

I think I have a unique insight into the situation in Venezuela. Because the political situation in Venezuela is so polarized, no Chavista will ever tell you that Chavez is an arrogant bastard, and no "Esqualido" will ever admit that Chavez has really revolutionized a region where the poor really had no voice.
A classical and sad aspect of humanity, we view our political parties the same way we view our football teams; In rain or shine our team is the best and all losses are the fault of the referee.. Fresh life/blood is always needed, that's why I've for the last three elections voted for non parliamentary parties.

Have elections been democratic? My aunt and uncle were a middle class family. Uncle worked as a geologist for the oil companies, aunt has a private medical practice that she barely keeps afloat...not due to lack of patients....but because she spend almost all of her time working in a public hospital. She has worked there 25 years plus. She voted for Chavez 2-3 times, when she saw the same poor conditions in the hospital, the same poverty in Caracas, increasing crime rates, she voted against him in a referendum. Her name was posted publicly and she was black listed. You see, any public worker who votes against Chavez in an election or referendum gets blacklisted, you will no longer be able to work for a public institution.
Can we once and for all agree that Venezuela isn't a dictatorship, but infact a democracy with elections that have been proven fair by various organizations?

Seems to me that your grandma is asking of this government to deal with all problems V has, that haven't been dealt with during decades or rule by the two old parties (that always were in power), in just 10 years time?!!

The black listing is wrong, but at the same time it can be understod because of the special situation that threatens the free society of Venezuela. I can share a similar thing that happened in Sweden throughout the cold war, where the secret police black listed all members of any communistic party, and in some cases Social Democrat members who were thought they might cause some sort of "trouble" within the unions!

In resent years this has become known and that it has hindered them in getting work at some regular, non clearance required, jobs. I, my self have been rejected by the secret police to join the national guard, due my parents were communist/feminist activists. This happened even though I was demobilized with excellent grades from the artic rangers.

The Soviets were never a true threat as they were all about defence, their military offensive purposes were just lies from the military industrial complex and every body else who benefitted from having frightened, and therefore easy ruled, masses. Venezuelas democratic society has on the other hand, as you recognized your self, for 10 years now been destibilized by the CIA and their inhouse traitors in noumerous ways.

The April 2002 coupe, and the 2002-2003 three month lockout/sabotage of their countrys economy and companies, are reasons heavy enough by their own to allow this controll of personell. It's a soverign state, and a democratic and free society on top of that, protecting its self from foreign intervention/invasion.

Same goes for the oil company, anyone who was on strike or signed the petition against Chavez was blacklisted. If a foreign oil company wants to come into Venezuela they are not allowed to hire anyone who was blacklisted.
As I wrote above, they've prooven them selves as collaborators of a hostile foreign power. The democracy of el pueblo overcame. :nopity:

I think it is very difficult to choose a side in a situation such a Venezuela's. In order to really change things you have to come in with a heavy hand such as Chavez has done. There is no doubt that the CIA and other jackals are working underground to ensure that his public policies and administration fail, and are trying to oust him.
Thank you! :cheers:

Can you really make a change when corruption is so ingrained in the government and society without taking control of the media (no doubt he is trying to do this), and state owned companies and kicking the opposition out? I really don't know, all I know is what I see.
I consider the explanation for taking control ower state owned companies to have been expalined above.

As far as the media, it is a pure lie! All media outputs, TV and press alike, were allowed to continue after the 2002 coupe that they actively supported! Non of them lost their licence because of participating in the subversion of their society! Non of them, or the key individuals involved, were even tried for treason etc! THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN OVERLOOKED BY ANY WESTERN DEMOCRACY!

Out of 8 (or is it 9) TV stations (only national counted?) supported the coupe actively by only showing the demonstrations/rallies of the opposition. They all participated in the RCTV orchestraded lie about gvmnt snipers fiering at friendly opposition emonstratiors! They all were showing soaps and cartoons instead of reporting on the rise up of the Venezuelan people against the coupe leaders in Carracas!

In 2007 RCTV's licence to transmit through air waves was lost after years of countless warnings from the radio and TV body (an independent body BTW). Their licence wasn't renewed when it expired and their space was given to a community controled national TV station. RCTV is still alowed to transmit radio and cable/internet TV!

In fact, the only TV station that's been controlled/closed in Venezuela was the one and only state controled national TV station, aswell as all state controlled regional/national radio and TV stations, by the coupe leaders.

Check the Independent article on page 1, and more so watch this real time documentary of the coupe (by two Irishmen and no Chavistas BTW) for correct and non biased information on what went down during those days and how Venezuelan media is as a whole.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHPPpL9z9GE

Anybody who has seen this documentary and still continues to talk **** about the Chavez gvmnt controlling the media might as well start denying the Jewish holocaust happened. If you lot don't watch it, you're denying evidence, and thus forsaken your right to sit in a jury. Enough!
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
He has amazing social programs, barrio adentro is a great example. He puts Cuban doctors in the slums, people that have never in their lives seen a doctor have access to GOOD doctors. One of the issues is that Venezuelan doctors who want to do the same program are not paid as much as the Cuban doctors, they do not receive housing or transportation like the Cubans get.

Young professionals are leaving Venezuela in droves. There is no investment into the development of internal professional resources. Venezuela is exporting young professional talent that would other wise help move the country forward. Scientists, engineers, doctors, accountants, etc. are all looking to leave because there is no work.
All those Venezuelan doctors who during all those decades have refused to set their foot in the barrios, because it doesen't become their snotty überclass asses, are now complaining that they don't have any work? Who the F*ck were they treating during all these years, I wonder? Cuban doctors treat those who didn't have the mercy of those middle class cvnts now complaining about loss of work.

I also want to recollect taht Cuba payes for their doctors and teachers(but I'm not 100% in this case), and that they intern for their services get paid in oil. 99% sertain of that.

Of what I've read, and also some are linked to in this article, the Chavez gvmnt is expanding their society in a lot of ways and not only relying to oil revenues. Agricultural, mechanical, technincal, mining, etc, know how is comming from countries like Brazil and Iran, for instance.

Know how fleeing the country towards richer countries is a thing all poorer nations have in common. I doubt Chavez who has proven him self to expand the know-how and versatility of his country, is closing down those very same sections of the economy, it's illogical...

I think Latin America and Venezuela needed someone like Chavez, however, I think he has done all he can do for the country. He does not have the diplomatic ability to keep things moving forward. The opposition is trenched in and as soon as the US gets the whole Middle East somewhat under control they will be able to focus on Venezuela. With it's huge oil reserve it's only a matter of time before the US has to "defend it's interests".
I disagree, domestically the Bolivarian revolution has had a total of 15 missions, similar to the one you've mentioned (the Cuban doctors caring for the slum), that are on their way to change the society as it's known. Are all problems already sloved after 10yrs, you mean, or has his well of ideas dried all of a sudden?

Internationally wise, you're lacking in adequate data. Chavez has continously strenghtened his ties with the whole of S.A., including most recently with Colombia's Uribe, OPEC member countries, the 80 Non Aligned Countries, Ken Livingstone, the Spaniards.

The only ones that don't go well with him is the Empire and those wicked countried supporting/participating in their exploitation of the poor nations and their inhabitants (some EU members mostly). So what are you saying, that the Venezuelans should hand over their soverignty to the Empire so that they will be somewhat spared when the wicked find a way to start a third simultanious war? :disgust1:

If you really want to know what is going down in Venezuela just ask me, I will try to answer as best I can. If I don't know I can always find out first hand info.

He wanted to build public housing on the golf course of the richest area in Caracas. Completely isolated from where any common man works, no public transportation to and from. He just wanted to piss off rich people, I found it pretty funny, I am sure the rich did not.

He wanted reduce the work week to 6 hours a day....this was actually attached to one of his referendums, a common strategy of his.
Your insight is welcomed and you seem to want to see all things good and bad on both sides! Although, some here have stated that, for instance, only a Swede can really know what's going down in Sweden, and not recognizing that party politics are usually what is behind ones interpetation/admittance of things occuring. I hope you don't agree with that.

To hell with the golfers, stingy arrogant egoistic carnivores. :cheers:

6 hour working day is not only a good strategy, it's a caring thing to do for those who can't afford a house cleaner, a cook, a special tudor, etc, and have to do all the house work them selves. On top of that they have to study with their kids, and rase them to be good and lucky human beings for the rest of their lives.

Simultainiously that creates more jobs, and therefore less despare and crime. A 6 hour working day will have a positive ling time effect on a society like no other thing.

Hey, look...perspective!
But his perspective is speaking against yours in most things.. :poster_oops:
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,740
784
Front Range, dude...
Yes, but his perspective is firsthand, learned from actually being there and doing that. Unlike yours, which is gleaned from reading propaganda put out by the party apparatchik of the oligarchy masquerading as a workers paradise...

I dont think jmvar thinks as highly of Chavez and his doings as you think he does. Go back and read his input again. Dont drink any Kool-Ade before or during your reading. Your reading seems tainted by your hatred for America, and all things GWHB.

Chavez is no better than Bush. They are both rich f@cks who have continued to enrich themselves off the sweat and toil of the working class. Yes, they have both spewed enough pablum and started programs to make the sheeple feel better about their lot in life to make themselves almost look good when the harsh light of the historical perspective is cast on them, but in the end they are both criminals...

"Can we once and for all agree that Venezuela isn't a dictatorship, but infact a democracy with elections that have been proven fair by various organizations?"

True democracies dont blacklist those who vote against the ruling party. Dissent is a priviledge treasured in a true democracy. Its one of the few things we have left here, even though the GOP is trying its best quash it.

Once again, agreeing to disagree...

Except for the part about the golfers. I hate golf and golfers. Mark Twain once said "Golf is a good walk spoiled". Arrogant f@cktards...stingy arrogant egoistic carnivores!
 
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$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
True democracies dont blacklist those who vote against the ruling party. Dissent is a priviledge treasured in a true democracy. Its one of the few things we have left here, even though the GOP is trying its best quash it.
American Center for Voting Rights said:
A careful review of the facts shows that in 2004, paid Democrat operatives were far more involved in voter intimidation and suppression efforts than their Republican counterparts. Examples include:

* Paid Democrat operatives charged with slashing tires of 25 Republican get-out-the-vote vans in Milwaukee on the morning of Election Day.

* Misleading telephone calls made by Democrat operatives targeting Republican voters in Ohio with the wrong date for the election and faulty polling place information.

* Intimidating and deceiving mailings and telephone calls paid for by the DNC threatening Republican volunteers in Florida with legal action.

* Union-coordinated intimidation and violence campaign targeting Republican campaign offices and volunteers resulting in a broken arm for a GOP volunteer in Florida.

Vote fraud and voter registration fraud were significant problems in at least a dozen states around the county. Vote fraud is a reality in America that occurred not only in large battleground states like Wisconsin but in places like Alabama and Kentucky. The record indicates that in 2004, voter registration fraud was mainly the work of so-called “nonpartisan” groups such as Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and NAACP National Voter Fund. Examples include:

* Joint task force in Wisconsin found “clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee,” including more than 200 felon voters, more than 100 double voters and thousands more ballots cast than voters recorded as having voted in the city.

* NAACP National Voter Fund worker in Ohio paid crack cocaine in exchange for a large number of fraudulent voter registration cards in names of Dick Tracy, Mary Poppins and other fictional characters.

* Former ACORN worker said there was “a lot of fraud committed” by group in Florida, as ACORN workers submitted thousands of fraudulent registrations in a dozen states across the country, resulting in a statewide investigation of the group in Florida and multiple indictments and convictions of ACORN/Project Vote workers for voter registration fraud in several states.
are you still incapable or unwilling to stop blindly following in the repub hatred & bigotry? (i say "following" b/c clearly you demonstrate no leadership abilities).

what happened in your past? were you twaddled by a catholic senator in the back of a christian science reading room?
 

X3pilot

Texans fan - LOL
Aug 13, 2007
5,861
1
SoMD
Off topic for a moment:

Except for the part about the golfers. I hate golf and golfers. Mark Twain once said "Golf is a good walk spoiled". Arrogant f@cktards...stingy arrogant egoistic carnivores!
I don;t like golf but some of my best friends play golf. They don't mountain bike, but don't hate me for being one. Arrogant, yes. Stingy..why? Because they're spending the money they earned or received to do what they want instead of handing it out to some poor person? Possibly. Egotistic? I'm pretty sure unless you're on TV playing golf, it's a humbling game. But it is a good walk, spoiled. Carnivores? WTF does that have to do with anything.

Now, back to the fun...

:popcorn:
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
12,740
784
Front Range, dude...
Stinkle, well done! No one can profane a relatively well mannered post like you. Why stoop to insults and cheap shots? Have I offended your delicate sensibilites in some way? If so, HTFU. You posted an interesting link to some apparently bona fide voter fraud happening in this country, and then in the true spirit of the internet weakling/slash bully, you insult me. A person you dont know from Adam. Again, well done!

Further, if you read my post that offended you for comprehension, instead of for knee jerk, you would have seen that I said a "True democracy"...no where did I state that the US is one.

RW seems an intelligent and well read type who is alternately interesting and confounding, and I enjoy the forth and back that he brings to the PWN. You will notice that he has not once lowered or debased himself (That I have seen or found...) to the point where he resorts to insults or obsenity. No matter how many times he has been prodded.
He seems a commited Marxist, and I am a commited realist.

And X3, my biggest problem with golf is that I cant play to save my life...my attitude towards it (And golfers.) is a coping mechanism.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
Can we once and for all agree that Venezuela isn't a dictatorship, but infact a democracy with elections that have been proven fair by various organizations?
Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but did you READ jmvar's post?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
I don;t like golf but some of my best friends play golf.
I have no problem with golf, but golf courses are some of the worst environmental atrocities ever foisted on pristine forestland, clean waterways, and limited freshwater supplies justified only because they cater to an elite that can afford such destruction because they think it looks pretty and is fun. It is the worst kind of manufactured Mickey-Mouse/Truman-Show fantasy land. Thankfully, more and more course designers are starting to use the landscape and resources natively available... when that trend becomes universal, I'll stop the hate.

Fvck golf. Fvck it right in its stupid ass.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
456
chez moi
Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but did you READ jmvar's post?
Hey, Chavez is getting rid of that pesky middle class and giving handouts to the poor. To a self-hating bourgeois Swede, that's .75 of the way to paradise! Viva la revolucion!
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
Off topic for a moment:



I don;t like golf but some of my best friends play golf. They don't mountain bike, but don't hate me for being one. Arrogant, yes. Stingy..why? Because they're spending the money they earned or received to do what they want instead of handing it out to some poor person? Possibly. Egotistic? I'm pretty sure unless you're on TV playing golf, it's a humbling game. But it is a good walk, spoiled. Carnivores? WTF does that have to do with anything.

Now, back to the fun...

:popcorn:
I too like too lash out at some others every now and then... :busted:
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
10,408
456
chez moi
Not much of a golfer here, either, but my ultra-yuppie brother forces me to once in a while. Sometimes it's not so bad...other times...it's bad.
 

Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
8,153
1
Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
Not much of a golfer here, either, but my ultra-yuppie brother forces me to once in a while. Sometimes it's not so bad...other times...it's bad.
It's really nothing that a fifth of tequila, a key of blow, and a few hookers couldn't fix. You might get some funny looks on the 16th green...but at least they'll let you play the back nine...
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3643

Member countries of Petrocaribe, the Caribbean energy integration organization that Venezuela initiated in 2005, agreed Sunday to adjust the terms of financing for the purchase of Venezuelan oil in order to lower the impact of soaring oil prices on Caribbean countries. Also, Guatemala joined the association as its 18th member.

As long as Venezuelan oil costs $100 per barrel or more, Petrocaribe members will pay only 40% of their oil imports from Venezuela within 90 days, instead of 50%, as agreed upon previously. The remaining 60% would be paid over 25 years at a fixed interest rate of 1%, in accordance with changes ratified Sunday during the Fifth Petrocaribe Summit held in Maracaibo, Venezuela.


“This could compensate for this horrible curve in the petroleum markets,” said the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, who proposed the “urgent” changes.

If the price of Venezuelan oil surpasses $200 per barrel, which Chávez said would be a “not desired scenario,” member countries will pay 30% within 90 days, and 70% over 25 years.

So far, Petrocaribe countries have received a total of 58.9 million barrels of Venezuelan oil, approximately 56,000 barrels per day.

Chávez encouraged countries to pay part of their debt in “goods and services,” assuring that “a distinct market will be born in Petrocaribe” which creates “opportunities for integral development.”

Chávez also proposed that Petrocaribe nations create mixed enterprises with the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA to extract oil from the Orinoco Oil Belt, where Venezuela has some of the world’s largest oil reserves.

This way, each country in Petrocaribe would produce its own oil supply, strengthen its economy, and be less affected by the soaring oil prices, Chávez explained.

So far, Petrocaribe participants have constituted 8 mixed enterprises to make joint investments in oil refining and distribution in the region, according to Venezuela’s Energy and Petroleum Minister, Rafael Ramírez.

To help Caribbean countries improve domestic food production and be less affected by global food price inflation, Venezuela also offered to form bilateral agreements to build fertilizer production plants in Petrocaribe countries, starting with Nicaragua, Dominica, and Cuba, where such bilateral projects are already underway.

In addition to these long-term “structural solutions of our region,” Chávez announced that in the short term, Venezuela will supply Petrocaribe nations with 100,000 metric tons of urea, an ingredient in fertilizers, at a 40% discount from the international price. This will cover half of the region’s growing urea consumption, which Chávez estimated to be 200,000 tons per year.

“It is impossible that in a summit in today’s world the food crisis is not discussed,” Chávez declared. “We should convert Petrocaribe into a type of anti-hunger shield, a shield to protect ourselves from misery, from hunger.”

Petrocaribe nations also agreed to start a special fund in the Bank of ALBA (Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas), to boost food production and combat food shortages. ALBA is another regional integration initiative based on cooperative, fair trade principles as an alternative to global capitalism, whose members are Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, and Bolivia.

The Jamaican Prime Minister, Bruce Golding, offered to contribute $5 million to the ALBA Caribbean Fund, and Venezuela said it would contribute half a dollar of every barrel exported.

The vision of both the Petrocaribe and ALBA initiatives is the economic integration of Latin America and the Caribbean based on the principles of justice, solidarity, equality, cooperation, complementation, common will, and respect for the sovereignty and self-determination, with emphasis in human and social development, according to the website of Venezuela’s state oil company, PDVSA.

Venezuelan opposition leaders have criticized Petrocaribe and ALBA for being examples of the “diplomacy of bribery,” and accused the Chávez administration of attempting to buy support for the Venezuelan government.

Moreover, some officials from Petrocaribe nations have opposed the initiative because it favors accords among governments and de-emphasizes the private sector.

Petrocaribe is now composed of 18 Caribbean countries, including Guatemala, which joined the group Sunday. Costa Rica, which is still considering membership, sent a representative to observe the summit.


Upon ratifying his country’s membership, Guatemalan President Álvaro Colom said Petrocaribe was “founded on a new vision… the search for solutions which complement our economies, not absorb them.”

Likewise, Cuban Vice President Carlos Lage described the regional organization as “a mechanism of integration oriented toward development which takes in to account the particular circumstances of smaller economies.”

Minister Ramírez encouraged the expansion of the organization, commenting, “I am satisfied with our system, that our mechanisms of cooperation have generated such a level of trust that in each summit more countries are incorporating themselves.”

In other regional integration initiatives, Venezuela is currently discussing plans to build an oil pipeline through Suriname and Guyana, and President Chávez discussed the construction of a transnational railway with Colombian President Álvaro Uribe during their meeting last Friday.
Interesting development, I'm sure that the U.S will be desperately fighting to make sure Costa Rica won't be joining it.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
Interesting development, I'm sure that the U.S will be desperately fighting to make sure Costa Rica won't be joining it.
sure hope this doesn't affect my current plans to spend 10 days there next summer.

has anyone given any thought of whitey?
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
Further, if you read my post that offended you for comprehension, instead of for knee jerk, you would have seen that I said a "True democracy"...no where did I state that the US is one.

RW seems an intelligent and well read type who is alternately interesting and confounding, and I enjoy the forth and back that he brings to the PWN. You will notice that he has not once lowered or debased himself (That I have seen or found...) to the point where he resorts to insults or obsenity. No matter how many times he has been prodded.
He seems a commited Marxist, and I am a commited realist.
Hehe, and I who was about to help you answer $tinkle by reminding him of all the things that are considered natural in a democracy, things that Bush has deprived you of since 911, through Patriot Act, Internet 1 and 2, etc. But you managed him just fine by your self.
BTW, these depravations have sadly taken a tour around the world since then. Three weeks ago the right wing coalition in Sweden voted through a law that allows our equivalent of your NSA (I think) to evesdrop on all calls, emails, sms', anything transmitted electronically. Even though EVERYBODY was against it; the police, secret police, lawyers guild, all political youth organizations, parliamentary investigations, everybody but for the defence ministry. NSDAP rules my country, I'm telling you..

Thank you for all the kind words! If I may speculate, I belive the confounding part that you find in me is that my beliefs are many times entirely contradicting to everything you normally get to hear. That to me says alot of how one sided and kapitalist dominated news coverage is in the west, and actually in the whole world.

And I'm not a Marxist. Truth is I'm not THAT well read to call my self anything THAT defined (although one of the two parties I voted for in the last election is Trotskist). To me the political scale has not only one axle, but two. Right - Left, and, Authoritarian - Antiauthoritarian.

I don't belive in Libertarianism because we can't "leave things to their own (market etc)", as people can't get informed enough to be left to make all choices correctly according to their values. Mankind isn't that clever, we're actually pretty lazy as almost nobody consumes consiously (cus it's too much of a hastle to obtain that knowledge), so "the magic hand" will lever fix things to the better per automatique.

Nor do I wanna preserve our society as it is, and only develop slowly (or even return to days past) like the conservatives want, as our present is sheit, and our past is waaay worse. I want to progress. Look at nature, it evolves all the time, it never stays, if it freezes it gets some woolen undies on, like quick.

In our societies this progression in natural when it comes to technical stuff, but not when it comes to us individuals. Once we finish school we (the majority) resort to reading sports, tabloids and evening papers (at best). All around me I see fear of searching ones own head, admitting our stains and faults, and thus enabeling us to develop like humans.

Nor does progression seem natural to apply to our democracies. They're representative, no strive towards greater participation, they tell us that voting every 4 years (or so) is all the democracy there can be. Democratisizing our democracies is unthinkable, any critism on them and they might brake. A lid on is put on the information from participatory democracies.

Progression is the way of nature. I belive in socialism, not only because it wants the society to change, but because it acknowledges that all people are different, our abilities, talents, strengths, and weaknesses. We all need help some time in some thing, we're all weak some time. We're not meant to compete against each other, but to complement. "Every one of us according to our abilities, to each and one of us according to our needs". Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, so therefore I don't belive in a "well meaning intelectual elite that will cater for the working class".

That is a realist observation, don't you think?

Maybe it's a language barrier thing, but did you READ jmvar's post?
No worries, man, I read it AND the Independent article, AND watched The Television Will Not Be Televised, AND generally read anything I can find on V.

Bottom line: we all have views (that we're hopfully expressing truthfully) who we have obtained through different experianses and intake of information. If you ask me a thing about Sweden, I won't be the natural truth on all things Sweden. I will only be telling it from a perspective from my political beliefs and knowledge. I've been wrong, unadequately informed about things Swedish, etc, before. I expect the same thing out of anybody about anything.

Remember, I'm as much Greek as Jmvar is Venezuelan. I'm no oracle when it comes to Greece eather.

Hey, Chavez is getting rid of that pesky middle class and giving handouts to the poor. To a self-hating bourgeois Swede, that's .75 of the way to paradise! Viva la revolucion!
Yeh, cus in some circles self critisism is dangerous.. I'm working class mate, all the way, I curse, fart, blisters in my hands, dirty, sneakers to all type of cloth, 22 year old car, knocked out tooth, scarfaced, hate on Babylon, the whole deal. :beerjam:
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
Fixed, see skinsuit thread.

:crazy:
I dare you to show examples of me being a homophobe in that thread. The reason I took a lot of punches in that thread was because I stayed throughout it's whole duration, and not just left after dissing undies for DH once or twice, but more so because I posted that thread from a gay forum.

There it was in black and white, gays saying what clothing is considered to be gay by them selves, and not even a single person dared comment on that post. Not one! But they got triggered alright... :rofl:
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3643

Interesting development, I'm sure that the U.S will be desperately fighting to make sure Costa Rica won't be joining it.



Venezuelan opposition leaders have criticized Petrocaribe and ALBA for being examples of the “diplomacy of bribery,” and accused the Chávez administration of attempting to buy support for the Venezuelan government.
The US is losing face by every month passing, wonder when the 5th fleet will engage in battle..



And some politicians also claimed a similar type of "bribery" about the Chavez gvmnts discounted heating oil to poor US Americans. It's impossible to belive that politicians aren't aware that solidarity is an important part of socialism. No doubt, a big part of the hate towards Chavez is because he makes them look and feel like the stingy selfinterested crooks they are.




And Jmvar, here's another excellent article showing how Chavez keep things "moving forward" and how a good diplomat/leader he is among other Carribean nations. I don't see these stories like this one published by Swedish or international media. There's a continous positive news blackout from Venezuela and Cuba, leading to the general publics distorted views of these countries (and their leaders). That's why I said that "you lack in data".
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
No worries, man, I read it AND the Independent article, AND watched The Television Will Not Be Televised, AND generally read anything I can find on V.
So if you disagree with his post based on those other sources, then disagree with him. But you read his post and then declared it proved your point of view, which makes you either insane, untruthful, or just lacking comprehension. Take your pick.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
Yes, but his perspective is firsthand, learned from actually being there and doing that. Unlike yours, which is gleaned from reading propaganda put out by the party apparatchik of the oligarchy masquerading as a workers paradise...

I dont think jmvar thinks as highly of Chavez and his doings as you think he does. Go back and read his input again. Dont drink any Kool-Ade before or during your reading. Your reading seems tainted by your hatred for America, and all things GWHB.
His perspective is first hand, and indeed I think he is speaking honestly and doesn't try to be biased towards either side, but in one of my posts above I explained to Ohio that I, or anybody, else don't automaticly qualify as an oracle when it comes to Sweden or Greece.

About the Chavez gvmnt being crooks, I can only answer that by showing more of all the good things they're doing. Their actions speak of who they are.

Jmvar said that Chavez done lots of good and that he had been nessesary for V, but that he now thought C had done his part, as he had run out of ideas, and that it was time for someone else. He didn't specify from which party or what type of politics that should be. He also said other, both positive and negative, stuff.

I know I critisize the US alot, and as you're a really nationalistic bunch of people you have been offended or irritated by this. Hate has been spoken of alot, but not love. Why is it so that one nessesarily has to hate one side, while there's no mention of love/like for the other? Generally there's a lot more talk of hate in your country than there is in mine! Why? Is it used to silence critisism? Is it effective in doing so?

I like a lot of things that come out of the US, products and culture alike. As a people you're easy going, social, good on pepping others on a sloap etc, and you know that any good story needs a healthy portion of exaggeration. Policy wise, domestic aswell but more so foreign, your governments....well, they suck 95% of the time, to say it plainly without going into details now. You live in an extreme society, with extreme ideas towards the right. Your left (the Dem's) are more to the right than Swedens "rightest" party, the Moderates (liberal gvmnt coalition leaders and former konservatives).

Foreign policy wise, there aren't any real differances between the (your) two, they both have "US interests" on their minds, which means they don't have the Swedes (for instance) interests on their minds. THAT, I can not like. We've got a sovereign nation of our own, elected our own gvment, not your gvmnt, therefore if a US president acted in Sweden it would be an act of a dictator. There's nothing to like about that. You wouldn't accept it, nobody should.

Chavez is no better than Bush. They are both rich f@cks who have continued to enrich themselves off the sweat and toil of the working class. Yes, they have both spewed enough pablum and started programs to make the sheeple feel better about their lot in life to make themselves almost look good when the harsh light of the historical perspective is cast on them, but in the end they are both criminals...
Chill, lets keep this open, history is in the making, and we're not fully informed of the past as it is. You could be right about Chavez (he was born in a mud and tin hut BTW), and you could be wrong, open eyes and time will tell.

True democracies dont blacklist those who vote against the ruling party. Dissent is a priviledge treasured in a true democracy. Its one of the few things we have left here, even though the GOP is trying its best quash it.

Once again, agreeing to disagree...
The US has practicly declared war against Venezuela. They haven't launched an occupational force yet, but their black ops (read CIA and collaborators) are subverting the country for years now. That is a special situation that has, without doubt, caused things to be different than they normally would. All actions have their reactions, it's nature.

As an action the blacklisting would be objectionable, but it's not an action, it's a reaction, and US propaganda benefits from it as they in this case don't even have to make up a lie about Venezuela.

Disagreement I'm fine with, just as long as we keep our minds open to new info.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
So if you disagree with his post based on those other sources, then disagree with him. But you read his post and then declared it proved your point of view, which makes you either insane, untruthful, or just lacking comprehension. Take your pick.
I've answered this in another post. You go ahead and do your duty as a member of a jury and listen to the defendant now:

 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
I just found this quote in an aticle about candidate discualifications for the upcomming regional elections in Novermber.

In order to determine whether those disqualified were among the nearly 3 million Venezuelans who signed the referendum against Chávez in 2004, Últimas Noticias consulted the list that was originally published on the personal website of National Assembly Deputy Luis Tascón. In 2005, Tascón was brought before the Supreme Court and also called upon by President Chávez to “bury” the list after it had been allegedly used as a political blacklist, despite Tascón’s stated intention of determining whether names had been fraudulently added to the list.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3646


Venezuelan Newspaper: Most Candidate Disqualifications Are Not of Opposition Supporters

July 15th 2008, by James Suggett - Venezuelanalysis.com


Mérida, July 15, 2008 (venezuelanalysis.com)-- Last Friday, Venezuela’s top anti-corruption official, Comptroller General Clodosbaldo Russián, presented a revised list of people sanctioned for corruption during their terms in public office and who have been disqualified from running for office in the upcoming regional and local elections.

In both the former list, which contained nearly 400 names, and the revised list of 272 names, more than 52% of those disqualified did not sign the 2004 petition for a recall referendum against President Hugo Chávez, while less than 48% did sign the referendum, according to the Venezuelan newspaper Últimas Noticias.

This revelation comes amidst claims by opposition groups that the disqualifications are a form of political persecution executed by Russián, who, according to former opposition presidential candidate Manuel Rosales, is “a puppet of Chávez.”

3,000 opposition activists marched to Venezuela’s Supreme Tribunal of Justice (TSJ) Saturday to demand that a series of top opposition candidates, including the current mayor of the wealthy Chacao district of Caracas, Leopoldo López, be taken off the comptroller’s list.

“We have already seen Comptroller Clodosbaldo Russián retract more than 200 disqualifications…this shows the legal and moral weakness of the comptroller’s position,” declared opposition leader and ex-wife of President Chávez, Marisabel Rodríguez, during the march.

In response to this, Russián said the list had been shortened because some of those who were originally disqualified were later found to have already completed the period of restriction from public office imposed by comptroller sanctions in previous years, so they are now free to be candidates for public office.

A former opposition candidate for mayor, Oscar Pérez, argued Saturday that the constitution does not give the comptroller the power to disqualify people from candidacy. “Article 42 and 65 of the Constitution are very clear, only by way of definitive judicial sentence can the political rights of a citizen be suspended,” said Pérez.

Article 42 of the Venezuelan constitution states, “Citizenship or any other political right may only be suspended by firm judicial sentence in the cases determined by the law.”

Article 65 states, “Those who have been condemned for crimes committed during the exercise of their functions, which affect the public patrimony, cannot stand for office in any popular election for a period of time, fixed by the law, until the completion of the sentence, and in accordance with the gravity of the crime.”

Russián, in response, pointed out that Article 25 of the Venezuelan Constitution establishes three types of sanctions for public officials guilty of corruption, specifically “penal, civil, and administrative responsibility, according to the cases.”

Articles 93 and 105 of the Organic Law of the Comptroller of the Republic, passed by the National Assembly in 2001, establish that the power to “declare administrative responsibility,” “impose fines,” and “impose sanctions,” including the temporary disqualification from public office, “will correspond in an exclusive manner to the General Comptroller of the Republic,” the comptroller explained.

According to Russián, the disqualifications from social and civil rights referred to in Article 42 of the Venezuelan Constitution are penal and civil sanctions, which “are totally distinct from what the comptroller can impose in the administrative way, which is only and exclusively the restriction from exercising public functions.”

In an interview with the Bolivarian News Agency, Russián said that corruption cases handled by the Venezuelan Comptroller’s Office satisfy the requirements of United Nations International Organization of Supreme Auditing Institutions (INTOSAI), an international government auditing NGO with special consultative status in the United Nations, and the Inter-American Convention Against Corruption signed by member countries of the Organization of American States (OAS) in 1996.

Moreover, Russián lamented that most of the public officials who have received administrative sanctions from the Comptroller’s Office contest the extent of their sanctions before the Supreme Court, but do not contest the administrative infraction for which they are sanctioned, which the comptroller called “the most grave thing.”

In response to criticisms by the Venezuelan Episcopal Church that the disqualifications “muddle” the political climate, Russián reaffirmed that the disqualifications are administrative measures to ensure honesty in public institutions and asked church officials not to forget “the commandment that we shall not lie or bear false witness.”

After publishing the revised list of disqualifications Friday, Russián assured that “for now, the Comptroller will not issue any more disqualifications,” so that the National Electoral Council (CNE) “can work with the needed anticipation” as political parties finalize their lists of candidates for the elections, which are scheduled for November 23rd.

The majority of those disqualified are ex-legislators sanctioned for mismanagement of funds, but the list also includes an ex-comptroller, an army Admiral, a public university official, mayors, governors, and employees in public institutions, according to Últimas Noticias.

In order to determine whether those disqualified were among the nearly 3 million Venezuelans who signed the referendum against Chávez in 2004, Últimas Noticias consulted the list that was originally published on the personal website of National Assembly Deputy Luis Tascón. In 2005, Tascón was brought before the Supreme Court and also called upon by President Chávez to “bury” the list after it had been allegedly used as a political blacklist, despite Tascón’s stated intention of determining whether names had been fraudulently added to the list.

I liked the part where the opposition candidate for mayor, Oscar Perez, claimed that the articles 42 and 65 of the constitution were implying in this case. I find it very typical for the continous dissinformation from the opposition that they claim and point to something that is a complete lie, knowing that the general public won't search those articles up, and that later in serve as a vague, but still exsistant, memory of "and what about that time with the discalifications, they were against the constitution".

This part where the corrupted assholes "do not contest the administrative infraction for which they are sanctioned" is another beauty. :biggrin:



As I remember the effects of playing "the wisper game" in kindergarten, and know how the Venezuelan and western opposition media have been reporting pure lies and half truths most of the time, and to add the findings of this article above, I'd like Jmvar to show me some proof of those claimed black listings.

As I see it right now, the claimed black listings are the same as the ones above, and that "the wisper game" has played us once again.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,659
0
Filastin
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised is a 2002 documentary about the April 2002 Venezuelan coup attempt which briefly deposed Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez.

A television crew from Ireland's Radio Telifís Éireann happened to be recording a documentary about Chávez during the events of April 11, 2002. Shifting focus, they followed the events as they occurred. During their filming, the crew recorded images of the events that they say contradict explanations given by Chávez opposition, the private media, the US State Department, and then White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer. The documentary says that the coup was the result of a conspiracy between various old guard and anti-Chávez factions within Venezuela and the United States.

EDIT: For truth seekers, strongheaded bridge burners, who dare confront that they've been living in, and beliving in lies, watchesitz:



ANDRES IZARRA, Head of News Production, Private TV Channel:
One of the channels had a camera opposite to the palace Miraflores, a camera from the channel Venevision. They captured images from people shooting from the bridge. It looks like they're shooting at the opposition march below. But you can see they them sleves are ducking. They're clearly being shot at, but the shots of them ducking were never shown. The Chavez supporters were blamed. The immages were manipulated and show over and over and over again, to say that the Chavez supporters had assasinated innocent marchers.
What a pinko commie.

Private TV Channel (Venevision?):
Look at that Chavez supporter. Look at him empty his gun. That Chavez supporter has just fired on the unarmed peaceful protesters below. Peaceful protesters who were totally unarmed.
The documentary commentator:
What the TV stations didn't broadcast was this camera angle, which clearly shows that the streets below were empty. The opposition march had never taken that route. With this manipulation, the deaths could now be blamed on Chavez.
He's arrogant, he deserved it.

At the Office of the First Minister, Dude #1:
Listen, we've heard that the opposition has taken over Channel 8 (the state run channel). The technicians can't get in and there's no sign of the army (who collaborated with the coup makers). Can you find out if it's true so I can inform people here?


Dude #2:
It's unconfirmed... ..but they say one renegade commando unit has taken over Channel 8.
To ensure a free press, of course..

Documentary Commentator, About the Morning After the Coup Night:
One hour later Venezuela awoke to a new regime, and to an extrodinary TV moment in which all was revealed.
Read below.

TV Commentator, for a Morning TV Show (private channel, of course), Friday April 12:
Good morning! We have a new president.

A Punter, on the TV Show:
I must thank Venevision and RCTV!

Commentator, again:
I must say, thanks to all the TV channels (and starts counting them up).

The Punter, again:
Thanks to the media.

Commentator:
How did it come about?
Punter:
The general's statment on TV, which we filmed in your house.

The Commentator, while laughing and showing he had nothing to do with the coup:
No! You just happened to call in with some photos for the show. I'm a journalist!

Punter:
So we shot the video in your house. The generals video statement was to make Chavez stay in Venezuela...
...Because Chavez had a trip planed to Costa Rica, and we needed him here for the plan to work. So then Chavez stayed here and we activated the plan.

Commentator:
What was the plan?

Admiral:
The plan was to get people on the street. And when things reached their peak, to activate the army.[/QUOTE]

Is that your meaning of free press?

PEDRO CARMONA, Coup Leader on Private TV From the Presidential Palace:
This is not a military government, this is a new government blessed by the people.
The people of the USA?

Ortega, A cronie:
President Chavez must be tried according to the law. Not only for violating human rights...
...But for repressing freedom of expression.[/QUOTE]

Before they shut down on freedom and democracy propperly.

Presidential Swearing In at the Palace, Apil 12:
I, Pedro Carmona, as president of the republic of Venezuela, swear before God, the nation, and the people, to re-establish justice, equality, solidarity, and social responsibility.
Sure he was.

Newly Apointed Attorney General:
We hereby decree, that a democratic transitional government shall be established in the following manner. We hereby dissolve the national assembly. We also dissolve the supreme court. We dismiss the attorney general, the head of the central bank, the ombudsman, and the national electoral board.
Justice, ezuality, solidarity, and social responsibility, he said?

PEDRO CARMONA, Coup Leader on Private TV From the Presidential Palace:
Thanks to this mandate, which we recieved from the Venezuelan people... ...A mandate more valuable than any referendum.... ...With the support of all the sectors of society.... ...We accept thisresponsibility.
More valuable than a referendum? If that isn't pissing on people then I don't know what.

ANDRES IZARRA, Head of News Production, Private TV Channel:
The censorship started that morning. We were told it was forbidden to show Chavez supporters on TV. The head of the channel said "this is the official line". "Accept it or leave". This was against my principles, so I resigned.
During the rest of the coup Channel 8 remained closed and so did all regional TV and radio stations that were state run.

The spanish CNN was a part of the media coup.

Chavez, on the Press Conference After His Arrival to the Palace:
Firstly, I want to call for calm on today /..../ Sunday April 14. I've been "incomunicado" for the past few hours. /..../ The most important thng I want to say to you is... ...go back to your homes. We need calm. Those of you who oppose me. Fine, oppose me! I wis I could change your minds. But you can not oppose this constitution. This is the peoples book. It's like the "Popol Vhu", the book of the Mayas. The book of the community. You have to recognize this. But most importantly, don't be poisoned. Don't let them poison you with their lies.
I concur.

Colin Powel, "the Peace Dove":
We support democracy. We support the community of democracy that excists in our hemisphere. Really, we've had disagrements with president Chavez in the past, ehm (coughing), and we will have them in the future.


This **** sure took it's time but it was worth it..
 
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jmvar

Monkey
Aug 16, 2002
414
0
"It was a funny angle!"
Yes there are interwebz in Venezuela. However, Chavez has pretty much outlawed Ridemonkey and has forced Venezuelan mountain bikers to exclusively use Pinkbike. The reason for this is so that drops in Venezula can me measured in Pinkbike feet as opposed to the more realistic Ridemonkey feet.

Going a step further, Chavez has formed a private committee that censors the word "feet", the symbol " ' " (that signifies feet), "ft", and "ft." automatically changing it to meters further inflating the egos of Venezuelan riders who love to defy gravity.

In the US the biggest drop I have done is probably the deck drop at Diablo which measure 4-5 Ridemonkey feet. When I got to Venezuela I can use the standard Pinkbike equation PB Drop ft. = (actual feet) x 1.5 + (rear travel)*.5 and then turn that into meters....netting 11 meters for me from this drop (not me in pic, I choose to drop towards earth with wheels perfectly straight and no style while praying I make it out alive).

 
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