The Zerode thread
- Thread starter EVRAC
- Start date
... and the tease is over Finally!!!
I tried to grab a pic from the Flash slideshow, but so far I haven't been able to, so I'll just post a low-res screen cap:
holy shit, this could well be my next bike. I think I've got at least another couple of seasons on my existing bike. This give me time to set some money aside... the only thing that has me worried is the 65° head angle. I'm looking more for a long travel trail bike than an enduro bike, and wonder if this might be too much. I've got time to wait for reviews I guess.
I know that that derailleurs have gotten to a point where they're pretty solid these days, but I just can't shake all those years of busted derailleurs and worn out gears. The lack of maintenance, low unsprung weight of the rear wheel, and robustness of the system is what will lead me to eventually purchase a gearbox trail bike...
I know that that derailleurs have gotten to a point where they're pretty solid these days, but I just can't shake all those years of busted derailleurs and worn out gears. The lack of maintenance, low unsprung weight of the rear wheel, and robustness of the system is what will lead me to eventually purchase a gearbox trail bike...
Sweet bike... Pinion is a brick though
WEIGHTS
Gearbox 3 2350,0 g
Rotary shifter 95,0 g
Crank arms „CNC“ 175 mm 4 434,5 g
Crank arms „Forged“ 175 mm 4 481,5 g
Chain tensioner (Federstärke: 2,5 mm) 5 122,0 g
Chain ring 30t 51,0 g
Chain ring 24t 37,5 g
Gearbox Spider 104 mm 40,0 g
Rear sprocket 26t 37,5 g
Rear sprocket 21t 29,0 g
That's like ~7 lbs for cranks and gear change stuff.
I think normal derailleur stuff is around 3-4 lbs for similar.
WEIGHTS
Gearbox 3 2350,0 g
Rotary shifter 95,0 g
Crank arms „CNC“ 175 mm 4 434,5 g
Crank arms „Forged“ 175 mm 4 481,5 g
Chain tensioner (Federstärke: 2,5 mm) 5 122,0 g
Chain ring 30t 51,0 g
Chain ring 24t 37,5 g
Gearbox Spider 104 mm 40,0 g
Rear sprocket 26t 37,5 g
Rear sprocket 21t 29,0 g
That's like ~7 lbs for cranks and gear change stuff.
I think normal derailleur stuff is around 3-4 lbs for similar.
so hot.
low pivot?
It is a bit of a disappointment for me too... we will see if I get over it or consider a craftworks instead
Mr Zerode mentioned issues with the chain jumping from the idler as the main reason for going away from high pivot.
Serious question: Props to dude for getting to this point, but am I missing something that makes this bike more exciting than it appears? By moving away from the high pivot/idler that people seem to gush so much about with the downhill bike, this looks more like a pretty straightforward bike Pinion would commission to test the market for a carbon bike with its gearbox. Maybe that's the point?
(Also, ahem, looks flexy.)
(Also, ahem, looks flexy.)
I would guess after riding the two trail bikes he created with a high pivot he found a single pivot with a lower pivot point would work better for "enduro" applications not only in the frame design but also in its trail-side performance. I am guessing its super playful and poppy....
Has anyone here ridden a pinion? I'm curious if it feels draggy... both gearbox bikes I made felt super draggy and slow. ie: -20 watts from what you are actually pedaling.
I know turning power through spur gears is not as efficient as a chain, and you have a chain on this bike anyways.
I know turning power through spur gears is not as efficient as a chain, and you have a chain on this bike anyways.
Yeah I have one. Can't say I notice any drag. I do notice being in a more efficient gear more often though. and ride up more stuff than fitter riding buddies do. Mine's an 18 speed though, although I rarely use the extreme gears and the 12 still has a massive range. 12 will be much better, as my only issue with mine is I double shift most gear changes as the changes are too close. Does have the bennifit of perfect cadence always, but the 12 will be close enough.
I highly doubt anyone will be unhappy with efficiency. You save more energy being in the ideal gear more often IMO.
Grab a ride of one when you can.
I'd have liked to have seen the high pivot one make it to production too. I think noise was the main reason for abandoning it. I don't think the chain was coming off, and that'd be fixable so it didn't happen. Idler would've been less efficient. I think the best balance of compromises was aimed for to cater to most riders. Perhaps Zerode will bring out a higher pivot one in the future.
The pivot point on this one isn't super low anyway.
The pivot point on this one isn't super low anyway.
Any theories as to why this would be the case? There are lots of variables but I don't understand how a gearbox will turn a reasonably competent rider who knows how to shift a derailleur into a better climber than a stronger person. I don't have much time on a gearbox and am truly interested. Do you think less unsprung weight at the rear wheel will have that big an impact on climbing? What bike/suspension are we talking about?
Guessing it's probably from being able to shift easily while climbing. You do have to soft pedal like with a mech, but you don't need to accelerate as much to do so, and the shifts are much quicker and easier, especially when shifting multiple gears. The multi gear shifting is probably it. I'm talking walking speed climbing, When most mates just go fkcu it and bother walking than trying to grind through a few gear changes. My current bikes a Nicolai Helius. I don't think it is drasticly different to the Zerode at sag when climbing in regards to anti squat. It just spins really easy and effortlessly when climbing. You can still get caught out in tight techy stuff by not being able to gear change, but it's a lot lot less frequent than with a mech.
Maybe the drag of a 1 x system in the lowest gear is more than the Pinion, wouldn't imagine it'd be much if at all though. I'd say it's mainly ease of gear changing.
If you get stalled and loose your momentum with a mech due to a wheel spin or a techy bit, it takes a lot of energy to get up to speed again, with the pinion you can jump to a lower gear easily. Lots of energy gets saved with a gearbox that isn't on the table in the efficiency debate of Pinion Vs Mechs.
If we just stopped during a climb to discuss this or wait for a buddy, I've just switched to a lower gear to get going while we sat and chatted. Yes you may have dismounted and lifted your "lighter"bike by the seat and pedalled it through a few gear changes, you've still used energy and fuss while I'm getting out of oxygen debt accept for this long ramble, LOL.
I think the lower unsprung weight won't have that much of an impact on climbing, but having a single front chainring and single rear cog means the suspension will have the same ideal pedaling efficiency no matter what gear you are in, and that will have a big impact on climbing. I think the Pinion has a wider gear range than most double chainring set-ups and it can be shifted under load, so maybe it's the sum of all those factors that allows noskidmarks to out-climb his fitter buddies.
Low pivot is pretty unexpected!
Wonder how the LR curve will be, it looks like that may end up on the flat side too, curious to see a Linkage mapping. I'm surprised at the change in attitude with respect to suspension, perhaps the more conventional aesthetics and layout will sell more bikes though.
Nice seat angle which is good to see. Gearbox implementation looks neat too.
Wonder how the LR curve will be, it looks like that may end up on the flat side too, curious to see a Linkage mapping. I'm surprised at the change in attitude with respect to suspension, perhaps the more conventional aesthetics and layout will sell more bikes though.
Nice seat angle which is good to see. Gearbox implementation looks neat too.
You still need to pause from pedalling for a millisecond to allow it to shift. so by shifting when you do that it changes quicker. Guessing this lessens cable stretch too.
It comes standard with largish size sprockets(by Pinion standard). By running smaller ones you could increase anti squat if desired. Not sure how much effect it'd have. The same anti squat in every gear will make it feel predictable, not that as much is needed in every gear.
With other brands/designs a lot of the climbing anti squat bennefits are lost once you ditch the granny ring in favour of 1 x systems.
Grip shift only for now. Works well with a gearbox IMO. Is quite sturdy shifting, so I doubt you'll miss shift. I run it with nearly full grip though.
There is a brand doing carbon cranks. Check the gearbox thread I think.
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Definitely not true, many bikes these days have good AS curves, and most are optimised for 32T 1x drivetrains. The linkagedesign website publishes this data for most bikes so anyone can verify this freely.
At this point nobody has an aftermarket trigger made. There is a French company that has been working on one for awhile. There was also a set of carbon cranks for the Pinion but I have not seen those around anywhere. I think they where at last years bike show in Asia. The Pinion cranks are pretty light 460 grams I think..
I'm guessing a bit of a nomad-esque leverage curve with the non-linkage driven shock. All the salsa bikes that do that seem to have a similar curve. I'm not good enough to simply eyeball it.
I love the cleanliness but I'm confused by the pivot location. I'm guessing he wanted that zero chain feedback feel you get with idlers rather than performance based anti-squat. Moving the pivot up like another inch would have given this bike a bit more sprinting and climbing ability, I think.
Still, it's the cleanest gearbox bike going aside from the wildly expensive cavaliers.
I love the cleanliness but I'm confused by the pivot location. I'm guessing he wanted that zero chain feedback feel you get with idlers rather than performance based anti-squat. Moving the pivot up like another inch would have given this bike a bit more sprinting and climbing ability, I think.
Still, it's the cleanest gearbox bike going aside from the wildly expensive cavaliers.
@no skid marks - thanks for the actual review of a pinion bike. I'd love to ride one, but have never even seen one.
I'm still doubting the efficiency of the gearbox and would like to see actual numbers of power lost, but I'm sure no one will ever lab test one fairly.
On my xx1 I just bang gears while pedaling hard and 99% of the time the shift happens fine. Haven't bent a chain or cassette in thousands of miles.
I'm still doubting the efficiency of the gearbox and would like to see actual numbers of power lost, but I'm sure no one will ever lab test one fairly.
This is a deal breaker for me. It drove me nuts with my alfine based gearbox bike. Going up a hill I'd want an easier gear to keep going- then have to push hard on the pedals, coast for a sec wait for the shift to happen (quickly) then keep pedaling. I would always screw this up and end up walking or losing traction.
On my xx1 I just bang gears while pedaling hard and 99% of the time the shift happens fine. Haven't bent a chain or cassette in thousands of miles.
and shifting drivetrain mass from unsprung to sprung.all of this just to avoid derailleurs.
I must be lucky. I rarely damage rear mechs, my drivetrain shifts great, and I need/want a huge range of gearing because I'm fat/old/slow™. Additional ground clearance would be a benefit, but the gear box seems (to me) to be a complex heavy solution to am exaggerated problem. Especially on a trailbike.
I didn't word that the best. There's more anti squat if used with a granny on lots of designs and plusher in larger gears. So with 1 x you loose these advantages.
If designed around 32t, anyone wanting a smaller ring is probably more of a climber and happy with possibly more anti squat and vica versa anyway.
With the Zerode/Pinion you can probably reduce or enlarge both rings to change anti squat if desired. Depending what gear you're in won't change anti squat like with a cassette.
Pretty sure it's on the short side of average.
Would be great to see a review of five different used Pinion bikes and five different deraileur bikes, varying in how much use they'd had, and just plucked stright from the hill without servicing.
I'll try testing my Zerodes Alfine Vs Pinion shifting on the same hill. Might take a while as I'm injury damaged for a couple of months.
It is only gearng. But there is a lot of small advantages to a gearbox Vs a mech. Once you've lived with a Pinion gearbox and swap back, they're all more evident. I'd still ride a good bike with derailleur as mechs are good now days. I do prefer the gearbox bennefits though. Suspesnion design still outweighs gearbox benefits IMO.
I think the ranges of most systems are on a Shedlon Brown page. Worth a look at for curiosities sake. Pinion also has more equal jumps between gears I think, adding to the predictable nature this bike should have.
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What idler did Metzy mention in that vitalmtb interview? Zerode uses no idler, just chain tensioner. Then, his high pivot prototype with Pinion has been using idler (logically). So which bike making noise did people complaint about ?
I can see the reasoning behind developing not only DH bike, and trying to catch the enduro wave, so the choice of Pinion seems obvious to me even though linkage frame can be made for Speedhub/Alfine equiped bike. Yes, the single pivot is not the only option. Sure, the huge rearward axlepath obviously isn't desired for enduro bike, but even that can be solved by 4-bar (non-single pivot) frame.
But why the hell so low single pivot? He could have at least tried to ask DW for SplitPivot license. I think Weagle would welcome such a cooporation.
Either-way, the bike looks super sexy, stunning to me. Pretty clean lines and silhouette. This is how a mountainbike should look like. I like the Pinion but its weight is awkward. I've read forged version of Pinion cranks have issues with durability of spline interface, and CNC version is durable only a bit longer. I find this, a custom cranks, being a big disadvantage of Pinion.
I can see the reasoning behind developing not only DH bike, and trying to catch the enduro wave, so the choice of Pinion seems obvious to me even though linkage frame can be made for Speedhub/Alfine equiped bike. Yes, the single pivot is not the only option. Sure, the huge rearward axlepath obviously isn't desired for enduro bike, but even that can be solved by 4-bar (non-single pivot) frame.
But why the hell so low single pivot? He could have at least tried to ask DW for SplitPivot license. I think Weagle would welcome such a cooporation.
Either-way, the bike looks super sexy, stunning to me. Pretty clean lines and silhouette. This is how a mountainbike should look like. I like the Pinion but its weight is awkward. I've read forged version of Pinion cranks have issues with durability of spline interface, and CNC version is durable only a bit longer. I find this, a custom cranks, being a big disadvantage of Pinion.
