[Defenestrated]

I thought military contractors were evil in principle up until a certain point in time, I then realized they were evil in practice. However this is a new low, I didn't think it could be much worse aside from a massacre, but just

This is what happens when you privatize the military, any transparency and accountability you might of been able to squeeze out of the armed forces evaporates very quickly when you turn to corporate guns.

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/05/contractor-fraud-and-theft-in-iraq.html

Allegations of widespread mismanagement and corruption among private contractors in Iraq are nothing new; if anything, tales of cronyism, over-billing, and embezzlement have become so frequent that our national tolerance for them seems only to have increased as the Iraq War has drawn on. Even so, the testimony earlier this week of three whistleblowers before the Senate's Democratic Policy Committee (DPC) stands out for the sheer outrageousness of their accusations—namely that U.S. private contractors looted Iraqi palaces and ministries, stole military equipment, fenced supplies destined for U.S. troops, and even operated a prostitution ring that may have contributed to the death of fellow contractor. Yet despite its focus on such salacious matters as sex and corruption, the session earned little media attention.

 

[Samirol]

Um, this is obviously false, the free market works fine.

"The free market punishes irresponsibility. Government rewards it."

 

[Defenestrated]

The real question is, did the Nazis make spurs out of Jew gold?

 

[jimmydean]

The real question is, did the Nazis make spurs out of Jew gold?

Duh..

 

[MikeD]

Oh, please. Can the theatrics.

Criminals are criminals in the military or out of it. [Boy, I bet I know how that's going to end up quoted and chopped in a snarky manner in a reply post...] Criminals should be punished appropriately, but I also don't blame the criminal if his crimes are known and he's not punished. I bet we have some common ground there...there are people who should be held accountable for their crimes and there are people who should be held accountable for not holding criminals accountable for those crimes the criminals committed. (I just wrote it like that for fun. I'm the sort of man who'd put iocane powder in his own cup.)

Lack of oversight is an organizational issue. It's got nothing to do with private contractors vs. military.

Early on in the Iraq conflict, contractors were often improperly supervised, and it's gotten much better now. This is fact. This doesn't make contractors or the industry in general "evil." Or "good," frankly. Throwing normative terms into the debate is just hystrionic nonsense.

 

[Samirol]

Oh, please. Can the theatrics.

Criminals are criminals in the military or out of it. [Boy, I bet I know how that's going to end up quoted and chopped in a snarky manner in a reply post...] Criminals should be punished appropriately, but I also don't blame the criminal if his crimes are known and he's not punished. I bet we have some common ground there...there are people who should be held accountable for their crimes and there are people who should be held accountable for not holding criminals accountable for those crimes the criminals committed. (I just wrote it like that for fun. I'm the sort of man who'd put iocane powder in his own cup.)

Lack of oversight is an organizational issue. It's got nothing to do with private contractors vs. military.

Early on in the Iraq conflict, contractors were often improperly supervised, and it's gotten much better now. This is fact. This doesn't make contractors or the industry in general "evil." Or "good," frankly. Throwing normative terms into the debate is just hystrionic nonsense.

It can only happen with extremely heavy regulation, but what Blackwater and their ilk do is disgusting. It is state-sponsored terrorism at best. I would classify the stuff that Blackwater has done and does as "evil", and I don't think that is a strong enough word for it.

 

[MikeD]

And just what are Blackwater and their ilk doing that is state-sponsored terrorism?

 

[Samirol]

And just what are Blackwater and their ilk doing that is state-sponsored terrorism?

Besides the highly publicized case of the 17 Iraqis killed, a Blackwater sniper shot and killed 3 guards for the Iraqi Media Network without any provocation.

Here is the account told by Steve Fainaru on Democracy Now!

Sure. The incident happened in the morning of February 7. The Blackwater team was escorting a member of the—a US embassy diplomat to the Ministry of Justice, which is across the street from the Iraqi Media Network compound. When the Blackwater team got to the ministry, they set up some of their people in sniper positions on the roof of the ministry, which overlooks the interior of the IMN compound. Across the street, the IMN, which is a state-supported complex, they had their own guards who were set up, some of whom were set up in an abandoned building inside the complex, but also overlooking a sort of square that is in between the two buildings.

At some point, one of the Blackwater snipers perceived or seems to have perceived one of those guards as a threat and opened fire and shot and killed one of the guards who was on a landing that was overlooking the square but also below the Justice Ministry roof. When that guard was shot, a number of the guard’s colleagues rushed to his side. When that happened, another guard was shot and killed.

The Iraqis went out to try to confront Blackwater and try to figure out what was going on. It was chaos, but over a short period of time, the Justice Ministry alerted the IMN guard team and also an Iraqi army company that has jurisdiction over that neighborhood that it was the private security company that was doing the shooting. They tried to confront Blackwater before they left, according to them, and Blackwater was unresponsive and then basically exited the area, dropping smoke grenades for cover as they left and returned to the Green Zone.

When the Iraqis went back inside the compound, they were looking for another guard who was actually the armor, the keeper of the weapons for the security guard staff, and they couldn’t find him. And when they—one of the guards returned to the balcony, where the other two guards had been shot, they found this third guard dead on the same location.

They deliberately targeted non-combat units and break the laws of war, which causes fear. Since the U.S has continued their contract, they are actively sponsoring a fear-causing, non-combatant targeting group.

They also have horrific contracts with their workers. Frontline did a fantastic program about the private contractors (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/)

 

[MikeD]

Yeah, I'm pretty intimate with the investigation of 17 Sept; not as much as some, of course. It was a **** sandwich and no one knows who started it, even if everyone goes ahead and draws a lot of conclusions that they want to draw.

It wasn't a good day for anyone involved or nearby, that's for sure. It doesn't indict a whole industry or even the contractors involved.

As far as your article, well, even it admits that the Blackwater personnel may have seen a threat. It's possible the Iraqi was pointing with his weapon, as they often use them to direct traffic or point out something interesting. Sounds like his loss. Point a gun at me and you'd get the same response. There's a chance the contractor's a murderer, too. But to call it "terrorism" is laughable. No one in the Department of State said "go out there and shoot someone to scare the Iraqis into compliance..."

And that's the problem. People perceive contractors to be doing a job that the military somehow used to do, but never actually did in any meaningful scale if at all (protection of civilian VIPs in war zones). They also think contractors are doing the job that the military actually does and is designed to do...kill people and break things...whereas the contractors are paid to 1) avoid fights and 2) run away (if possible) from any fight that starts.

 

[MikeD]

Samirol, I don't need Frontline to tell me about the industry. Thanks, though.

I'm not uninformed; I just know that you are.

PS I personally think Blackwater doesn't need its contract renewed by the Department of State, but for obviously far different reasons than you do...won't go into them here.

 

[Samirol]

But to call it "terrorism" is laughable. No one in the Department of State said "go out there and shoot someone to scare the Iraqis into compliance..."

Their actions cause fear, and the U.S supports it. Of course the Blackwater people say that they felt threatened, they shot innocent people. No other witnesses say that the security guards fired first.

Since you are familiar with the business, then I'm sure you recognize this photo:

Right, those are two Blackwater contractors who drove through the middle of Fallujah in a jeep and got murdered. Turns out their superiors at Blackwater ordered them to do the run, even though they objected, and the US Army deemed it "operationally dangerous" and refused to allow soldiers to enter. Blackwater also failed to provide a heavy gunner who was promised to the men to safeguard their trip. As a result, and the fact they couldn't refuse the order without bankrupting themselves and their families, they ended up like that.

Naturally, when this came to light, the families of the men were upset because Blackwater failed to adequately safeguard the lives of its men and openly lied to them about the working conditions. They opened legal action against Blackwater for negligence and wrongful death. In reply, Blackwater refused to release their dead husbands back wages (some collected during the run they died doing) and filed suit for breach of contract and a bunch of other legal mumbo-jumbo like the cost of their defense and ****.

As a result, they pointlessly lost their husbands due to corporate negligence, have not been paid the monies owed them, and are being sued to the tune of millions for holding the company to account for its failures.

 

[MikeD]

I've never argued that Blackwater, specifically, was a company I'd want to work for or want my friends to work for, just that being in the security industry doesn't make you evil or a terrorist or even a "mercenary," which is such a popular slander these days. If these guys had been hired to take an objective instead of provide security, I'd call them mercenaries without hesitation, or frankly even a perjorative overtone...

However, unlike their military bretheren, those contractors could also have said "no" when assigned the job and gone home. And, like I said, the early days of contracting in Iraq were fraught with bad decisions, bad management, and inexperience on all sides. Hopefully the mistakes won't be repeated; mistakes in this arena cost lives and that makes industry growing pains tragic. I feel for those contractors on the bridge, but I also know that when they chose the job, they accepted the risk and the fact that they wouldn't be mourned iby the public in flag-draped coffins like a dead Marine private...

There's just this "evil" label tossed around whenever security contractors come up. People call the contractors evil when it suits them and makes them the victims of evil corporations when it suits them, as long as they get to unleash some venom on the industry, which is bearing the brunt of America's backlash to the misguided policies of the Bush administration.

Add to that the completely ineffective and often counter-productive attitude of most/all PMCs towards furthering their own image or even garnering understanding of the job they actually perform and it gets really bad.

Like I said, I think Blackwater doesn't need to be doing WPPS work for State anymore; I'm no apologist for the company itself. However, the guys doing the actualy protection are, by and large, good and competent men. And Blackwater has been unfairly blamed for/associated with some truly sickening conduct performed by PMCs of various nationalities working for corporate entities out in the middle of nowhere with no oversight at all.

 

[Samirol]

I'm not accusing all the employees on the ground of being evil, but the corporation as a whole does outrageous things.

It doesn't matter if they accepted the job while knowing the risks, that is how the railroad companies 100 years ago got away with people getting their limbs ripped off. The fact that they can get fired for not going on suicide missions is ridiculous.

There are companies that do evil things that have decent people in them, even*people on the board of directors can be good men. Blackwater as a whole has done things that are, without a doubt in my mind, reprehensible.

 

[MikeD]

Comparing highly-paid and competitively-hired security contractors to desperate 19th century railroad workers is a stretch even I wouldn't make...

 

[Samirol]

Comparing highly-paid and competitively-hired security contractors to desperate 19th century railroad workers is a stretch even I wouldn't make...

I was comparing the business practice of saying "hey, you signed up for the job, tough **** if you die", not the job itself.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

The comparison that I think is valid is the do-the-wrong/stupid-thing-or-lose-your-livelihood trap that people find themselves in.

Of course, the trap exists in any field of endeavor.

 

[Samirol]

In most cases, the options are do your job or lose your house, not lose your life or lose your house.

 

[dan-o]

In most cases, the options are do your job or lose your house, not lose your life or lose your house.

True, except when you sign onto a lucrative contract to provide security in an active war zone.

 

[Defenestrated]

Killing is my business and business is goooood.

 

[Samirol]

True, except when you sign onto a lucrative contract to provide security in an active war zone.

There's a difference between what Blackwater did there and normal contracting work.

 

[JohnE]

Get the book "Big boy rules"...good look at security contractors in Iraq. I was "recruited" by Blackwater before leaving my last unit, and the guys pitch was along the lines of "100 k per year and we promise you will get trigger time." They hire alot of special operator types (I am not one, mind you...) and apparently your military record has little or nothing to do with whether you get in or not (Lots of UCMJ violators, discipline problems and cowboy types.), just what tabs you are sporting on your shoulder.
Their antics only serve to make life worse for those of us who go into the AOR under directives regarding use of force...

 

[reflux]

^ Yippie kay yay melonfarmer!!