[Drunken_Ninja]

i just have one question...why didn't they interrogate saddam hussein before they told the world?

afterall, there are ways of extracting intelligence without torture that are chemically effective. They must want direct answers.

First question: where the hell is bin laden?

we all need some answers fast to that one...

answer prolly like: he is in his own damn mountain. what you want me to take you to it? never been there, really.

 

[biggins]

" Cia Director Casey personally spearheaded the effort to ensure that Iraq had sufficient military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to avoid losing the Iran -Iraq war..... the united states actively supported the iraqi war effort by supplying the iraqis wit h billions of dollars of credits, by providing US military intelligence and advice to the iraqis, and by closely monitoring third-country arms sales to Iraq to make sure that I raq had the military weaponry required"
Howard Teicher
memebr of Reagans National
security council in a sworn
affidavit in 1995

to monitor the sale of weapons from third country arms which basically means we sold them or gave them to our ally at the time happened to be Saudi Arabia and they sold or gave them to Irag. its like a big happy giving tree.basically they were the pusher we were the supplier.

 

[biggins]

and finally to sum it all up, in 2001 the US consumed more than 40% of iraqi oil and gave him the key to the city of detroit in the 70"s.
proving once and for all that it is all about oil. What really happened to cause the war? Saddam was beginning to cut george off on the lube.

 

[Toshi]

nonono, it's not just about the oil. it's about overthrowing the whole middle east, one country at a time. that's nastier than the oil explanation, at least to me.

 

[HippieKai]

Originally posted by drt_jumper
first of all why dont you ask the familys of the hundreds of thousands of iraqi's whos families have been torn apart thanks to one saddam, how about him gasing his own people, funding terrorisim (maybe not al queda) but has been linked to funding other organizations....

No your right he did not fund Al Queda......WE DID we funded them and another group called Hummas! We paid for them to be trained and we gave them guns!
So don't you spout off without knowing the facts...





I hate when people watch Fox or take rumors as facts! I STUDY THIS STUFF!!!!

"So please don't talk if you don't know what your saying"
some smart dude-



i'm out i can't stand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by Mag204
...we funded them ...

What's one thing got to do with another

So what, we funded the enemy... big deal. At the time, they weren't, things change.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by LordOpie
What's one thing got to do with another

So what, we funded the enemy... big deal. At the time, they weren't, things change.

Didnt we really fund "the taliban" not Al Queda anyway? In which case, who else were we supposed to fund....the RUSSIANS

 

[N8 v2.0]

Don't you know that we (America) funded the terrorists... through our lavish use of petrolem products such as gasoline and plastics to maintain our lifestyle we demand as our birth right. That's the source for the $'s used against us.

 

[looseunit]

ok nate, so you object to it on the grander scale. and, assuming your thoughts on what would have happened under a different president are correct, this would be the correct thing to do. however, i think that the pansy "active dialogue" or however you portrayed it IS the right thing to do. we can't fight the whole world. therefore we must figure out what we're doing that's pissing them off so (supporting israel in all of their actions both acceptable and outrageous, like the wall) and change. i would rather compromise and not have a fascist-leaning govt than live in a secure state where true freedom of speech (since when has dissent become illegal? oh wait.) is nowhere to be found.

Cant agree more, American need to work out why there are pissing everboy off. Even the Americas Allies are not always sure how to support America and often only do because of finatual reasons. One of the main reasons for Australia involment in the illiagle war was to try and sucurre a free trade agreement with USA after 50 years of trying, we still dont have one.

As for taking action against Irqui do you not think it was all set up to help Bush win the next election. This has been done by many governments to take the interest off local politics and with the war on terror why not a arab nation. Any one rember the fuakland war. Not going thru the UN is the stupids think ever, what was the UN put in place to do, talk about pissing many countries off and then finding no WMD the main point of going to war. The end of Sadams rein is a good thing, but they way to do it was wrong way.

What are the most important things in Western Democaties are free speach, free press, right to a fare trial and free trade. Dont let me start on the suposted terrorist in cuba. This is what America should be pushing on the world and not showing the world a bad example of it.

If people dont try and understand other peoples and other countries culture the world is doomed. The same thing worked for Hitler with the jews. Cant tell me now with the war on terror people are not scared of arabs and Muslims and is helping Dubya Bush stay in power.

The world is becming alot more like 1984.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by looseunit
Cant agree more, American need to work out why there are pissing everboy off. Even the Americas Allies are not always sure how to support America and often only do because of finatual reasons. One of the main reasons for Australia involment in the illiagle war was to try and sucurre a free trade agreement with USA after 50 years of trying, we still dont have one.

As for taking action against Irqui do you not think it was all set up to help Bush win the next election. This has been done by many governments to take the interest off local politics and with the war on terror why not a arab nation. Any one rember the fuakland war. Not going thru the UN is the stupids think ever, what was the UN put in place to do, talk about pissing many countries off and then finding no WMD the main point of going to war. The end of Sadams rein is a good thing, but they way to do it was wrong way.

What are the most important things in Western Democaties are free speach, free press, right to a fare trial and free trade. Dont let me start on the suposted terrorist in cuba. This is what America should be pushing on the world and not showing the world a bad example of it.

If people dont try and understand other peoples and other countries culture the world is doomed. The same thing worked for Hitler with the jews. Cant tell me now with the war on terror people are not scared of arabs and Muslims and is helping Dubya Bush stay in power.

The world is becming alot more like 1984.

cratching head:

 

[Jorvik]

Originally posted by looseunit
Cant agree more, American need to work out why there are pissing everboy off. Even the Americas Allies are not always sure how to support America and often only do because of finatual reasons. One of the main reasons for Australia involment in the illiagle war was to try and sucurre a free trade agreement with USA after 50 years of trying, we still dont have one.

As for taking action against Irqui do you not think it was all set up to help Bush win the next election. This has been done by many governments to take the interest off local politics and with the war on terror why not a arab nation. Any one rember the fuakland war. Not going thru the UN is the stupids think ever, what was the UN put in place to do, talk about pissing many countries off and then finding no WMD the main point of going to war. The end of Sadams rein is a good thing, but they way to do it was wrong way.

What are the most important things in Western Democaties are free speach, free press, right to a fare trial and free trade. Dont let me start on the suposted terrorist in cuba. This is what America should be pushing on the world and not showing the world a bad example of it.

If people dont try and understand other peoples and other countries culture the world is doomed. The same thing worked for Hitler with the jews. Cant tell me now with the war on terror people are not scared of arabs and Muslims and is helping Dubya Bush stay in power.

The world is becming alot more like 1984.

Was that a drunk post? If so, sober up and get your thoughts into a cohesive argument.

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by looseunit
Cant agree more, American need to work out why there are pissing everboy off. Even the Americas Allies are not always sure how to support America and often only do because of finatual reasons. One of the main reasons for Australia involment in the illiagle war was to try and sucurre a free trade agreement with USA after 50 years of trying, we still dont have one.

As for taking action against Irqui do you not think it was all set up to help Bush win the next election. This has been done by many governments to take the interest off local politics and with the war on terror why not a arab nation. Any one rember the fuakland war. Not going thru the UN is the stupids think ever, what was the UN put in place to do, talk about pissing many countries off and then finding no WMD the main point of going to war. The end of Sadams rein is a good thing, but they way to do it was wrong way.

What are the most important things in Western Democaties are free speach, free press, right to a fare trial and free trade. Dont let me start on the suposted terrorist in cuba. This is what America should be pushing on the world and not showing the world a bad example of it.

If people dont try and understand other peoples and other countries culture the world is doomed. The same thing worked for Hitler with the jews. Cant tell me now with the war on terror people are not scared of arabs and Muslims and is helping Dubya Bush stay in power.

The world is becming alot more like 1984.

Did that come from a random generator?

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by biggins
the streets still are not safe and over half the population still supports saddam.

Did you fo over there and take a poll or something?

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by Toshi
i must say that it also really pisses me off that this will help bush's reelection chances.

Well I'm trying o put a positive spin on it. Maybe people will think that now that Hussein is captured, dubyah has served his purpose and now they can get someone else. He was the guy to make sure stuff done got blowed up good. He accomplished the task of getting Hussein. Great. Suivant/next.....

 

[llkoolkeg]

I was hoping for some decent debate this morning, but I'll not find it in this thread. No matter which party controls the White House or Congress, any good that occurs is immediately taken credit for and any ill that occurs is automatically blamed on the other guy. Such horse$hit. We are so polarized to extremes that we only see good when we can claim credit for it ourselves.

Dubya has thus far successfully piloted our nation through a very perilous time. Is he not at least as deserving of a second term as Bill Clinton, whose mettle was never really tested(though his wood was)? I'm no big fan of JFK, but for God's sake- I give the man his due for guiding us through the Cuban Missile Crisis. People who only see the world through the eyes of an elephant or a donkey are the biggest fools of all.

Whether it be the Republicans or the Democrats running things, wars occur, taxes are levied, business cycles run their course, pets die, the gulf between rich and poor grows, spouses cheat, seasons change and the stupid-assed politicians continue to bicker amongst themselves over how best to fleece the middle class and distribute the spoils.

 

[mrbigisbudgood]

Bob Dylan for President, Bob Weir as VP. Call it the Psychadelic Party.

 

[MMike]

Originally posted by -BB-
Did you fo over there and take a poll or something?

Actually if you (not YOU, you...I mean you in general terms), watch news other than Fox/CNN/MSNBC not everyone was dancing in the streets. I watched CBC news again last and they showed a VERY different picture than the US news networks.... They interviewed a bunch of Iraqis, Jordanians, palestinians, and there are still MANY people who support Saddam and they saw yesterday as a very sad day for the arab world.

....and then there's even more who are fighting the US because even though they were against Saddam, they are against the US even more....but I digress a little....

 

[LordOpie]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
No matter which party controls the White House or Congress, any good that occurs is immediately taken credit for and any ill that occurs is automatically blamed on the other guy.

That's partisan politics for you and it won't change. The only "solution" is disbanding the two parties or getting a third or fourth to a similar level of power.

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
Dubya has thus far successfully piloted our nation through a very perilous time.

No offense, but many could argue just as successfully that it was very perilous *because* of his actions... going into Iraq. If you're refering to 9/11, there was much to navigate.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by llkoolkeg
I was hoping for some decent debate this morning, but I'll not find it in this thread.

Well, come up with a new one LL... we'll play!

This one is dying.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by MMike
Actually if you (not YOU, you...I mean you in general terms), watch news other than Fox/CNN/MSNBC not everyone was dancing in the streets. I watched CBC news again last and they showed a VERY different picture than the US news networks.... They interviewed a bunch of Iraqis, Jordanians, palestinians, and there are still MANY people who support Saddam and they saw yesterday as a very sad day for the arab world.

....and then there's even more who are fighting the US because even though they were against Saddam, they are against the US even more....but I digress a little....

I had a chance to be in Downtown Everett, WA working a temp job when we went into Iraq. The Iraqi people living in Everett were happy and organized a parade by themselves to show their appreciation of what the US was doing there. I was able to talk to many of the Iraqi's on the street that day. They said theycouldn't go back to Iraq for fear of Saddam and his loyalists and the harm that would come to them if they returned.

Yesterday......On the local news, I saw many of the same Everett locals rejoycing in the streets and in their homes. In interviews they now feel that it will be safe for them to travel back to see family and friends. This very micro view (Everett, WA of all places) of life for Iraqi people has helped shape my views that I hold today.

I know my experience locally means little to most but it gave me a look, I wouldn't normally have had, at the people directly effected. Saddam's capture is a good thing, but not the end of drama in Iraq unfortunately. The fact he gave up with little fight and didn't go down in a blaze of glory is better in teh long run for the US. Hopefully the young men ready to commit suicide for Saddam will see him less worthy......because he didn't make himself a maurter(sp?) The strong leader was found hiding and without strength to fight back.

I hope he is tried and at the minimum sentenced to the equivalent of a hard life sentence. I don't know if killing him humanely is fitting of him. These are my personal views and I have to say Saddam is lucky I am not on the jury.

As far as politics...his capture should cross over all parties as a good moment. Worry about the presidential race tomarrow. I saw plenty of side stepping from the hopefulls as they attempted spin control...I would have done the same.

12/13/03 what many Everett WA Iraqi's call, "Iraq's Independance Day."

Rhino

 

[fluff]

Originally posted by N8

cratching head:

Yeah!

For possibly the first time ever, I'm with you!

This thread must contain the worst collection of poor english in any thread I have seen on this site. With a few honourable exceptions most of the posts have verged on unintelligible.

I know it's bad form to criticise people's postings on the basis of spelling and grammar but it began to be easier to find mistakes than correctly spelt words! If people want others to even consider their arguments, opinions and points, they'd do well to make them comprehensible.

Was there anything worthwhile here? The pain of trying to work out what people were trying to say got too much for me..

 

[llkoolkeg]

Originally posted by fluff
This thread must contain the worst collection of poor english in any thread I have seen on this site. With a few honourable exceptions most of the posts have verged on unintelligible.

I know it's bad form to criticise people's postings on the basis of spelling and grammar but it began to be easier to find mistakes than correctly spelt words! If people want others to even consider their arguments, opinions and points, they'd do well to make them comprehensible.

Was there anything worthwhile here? The pain of trying to work out what people were trying to say got too much for me..

Hahaha. Some of the posters write like Birminghammers.

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by fluff
Yeah!

For possibly the first time ever, I'm with you!

This thread must contain the worst collection of poor english in any thread I have seen on this site. With a few honourable exceptions most of the posts have verged on unintelligible.

I know it's bad form to criticise people's postings on the basis of spelling and grammar but it began to be easier to find mistakes than correctly spelt words! If people want others to even consider their arguments, opinions and points, they'd do well to make them comprehensible.

Was there anything worthwhile here? The pain of trying to work out what people were trying to say got too much for me..

a close 2nd to this is alarmist rhetoric -- from all political persuasions. For me, this has been one of the hardest threads to read.

 

[DRB]

Originally posted by Mag204
No your right he did not fund Al Queda......WE DID we funded them and another group called Hummas! We paid for them to be trained and we gave them guns!
So don't you spout off without knowing the facts...

I hate when people watch Fox or take rumors as facts! I STUDY THIS STUFF!!!!

"So please don't talk if you don't know what your saying"
some smart dude-
i'm out i can't stand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing like a good pile on. This thread is utter crap. Its like a monkey f'ing a football.

BUT this post has to be my favorite.

Notice I STUDY THIS STUFF, but starts with HUMMAS. Is that some sort of hybrid vegan terrorist group? Or is that the group that Burly Surly started to instigate his war between PETA and Greenpeace.

 

[MMike]

Nothing to do with anything really, but watching CBC last night they showed footage from 1982, with Donald Rumsfeld meeting and being all chummy with saddam.... back when the common enemy was Iran....

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by MMike
Nothing to do with anything really, but watching CBC last night they showed footage from 1982, with Donald Rumsfeld meeting and being all chummy with saddam.... back when the common enemy was Iran....

...and Saddam had yet to use chemical weapons on his internal enemys, invade his neighbor to the south, feverishly work to get WMD's, yadda, yadda, yadda... nope, he hadn't done any of that yet...

 

[MMike]

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

 

[tgaines72]

"we got him."

That wasn't Saddam Hussein, its Santa Claus

Now what are we gonna tell the children

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by MMike

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

it meant little then, and it doesn't mean squat now. keep bangin' that drum, & all you'll find is the like-minded ilk around you. This is called "the minority", and there ain't no affirmative action plan i know of to "reinstate your rights".

Funny how the anti-bush crowd plays down his capture, touting "he wasn't in control / he was no longer a threat", but yet embrace this infamous pic as the most "damning evidence" of how hipocritical our administration is. Is this now issue #1? Are they breathing their last breath? There are other more relevant & recent events you could use to further your cause against this administration (yes, i've pigeon-holed you), like fiscally irresponsible foreign aide, energy policy, etc.

 

[Toshi]

i'm not anti-bush. i'm anti-idiot.

to clarify: i didn't like clinton, i don't like bush, and i don't like either party. i voted for nader, for instance (but libertarian in every other race). why i don't like these two people in particular isn't because of party loyalty, but because i think they're defective to the point that they shouldn't be in office.

 

[ummbikes]

I have a couple of questions for the pro-Bush crowd.

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to dissent from the mainstream views on a topic?

Does it make you less of a patriot than someone supporting the Bush regime and it's policies?

Is it possible to be happy Saddam is captured and still be concerned about how the next 20-30 years will be played out as result of our occupation of Iraq?

Our nation is very divided over this issue and others like the environment, corporate ethics and healthcare.

Is there common ground between conservatives and progressives?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Originally posted by ummbikes


Is there common ground between conservatives and progressives?

I think in actuality there is, but in instances like now, the Democrats arent playing that card. They're trying to be the anti-bush, and while that might be fine for a certain part of the population...its certainly not going to win an election. However, agreeing with Bush is also not going to win an election...and that brings me to my current stance...he obviously must be doing ok if you cant really find something wrong to attack.
Sure, its fine to disagree with anything, and you're still a patriot so long as you love your country.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I have a couple of questions for the pro-Bush crowd.

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to dissent from the mainstream views on a topic?

Does it make you less of a patriot than someone supporting the Bush regime and it's policies?

Is it possible to be happy Saddam is captured and still be concerned about how the next 20-30 years will be played out as result of our occupation of Iraq?

Our nation is very divided over this issue and others like the environment, corporate ethics and healthcare.

Is there common ground between conservatives and progressives?

Yes to all your questions.

There is a lot of hardcore partisanship on this Forum. To balance the extremeist views quite often posted here (i.e. corporate America is the devil, Pres Bush is a drunken moron, N8 smoked the Magic 8 Ball , etc...) I tend to post a bit more partisian than I normally am in everyday life.

I have a lot of disagreement with the current administration but it's the best choice we have at the moment (in my opinion).

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I have a couple of questions for the pro-Bush crowd.

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to dissent from the mainstream views on a topic?

since it's an opinion, it can't be wrong, but can be properly (or poorly) defended.

Originally posted by ummbikes
Does it make you less of a patriot than someone supporting the Bush regime and it's policies?

certainly not (as related in the prev response)

Originally posted by ummbikes
Is it possible to be happy Saddam is captured and still be concerned about how the next 20-30 years will be played out as result of our occupation of Iraq?

not just possible, but intellectually honest and consistent.

Originally posted by ummbikes
Our nation is very divided over this issue and others like the environment, corporate ethics and healthcare.

Is there common ground between conservatives and progressives?

duh! mnt biking! sorry roadies...

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by N8
N8 smoked the Magic 8 Ball

That is a great tag line...

 

[N8 v2.0]

Originally posted by ummbikes
That is a great tag line...

It's classic Lord O' Pie that 4 sho'!

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by ummbikes
I have a couple of questions for the pro-Bush crowd.

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to dissent from the mainstream views on a topic?

Does it make you less of a patriot than someone supporting the Bush regime and it's policies?

Is it possible to be happy Saddam is captured and still be concerned about how the next 20-30 years will be played out as result of our occupation of Iraq?

Our nation is very divided over this issue and others like the environment, corporate ethics and healthcare.

Is there common ground between conservatives and progressives?

Everyone can have an opinion, but I find it amazing people think they are safe from people questioning their own opinions. I think jsut about everyone is defensive when another questions their beliefs. I think this happens on all sides It has nothing to do with pro/anti-Bush. It happens regardless of whether it is main stream or not. It is more of an "I don't agree with you" mentality everyone has, and especially in this forum can express.

Patriot is what people lable someone with their own beleifs. Patriots are different for every side and traders to the others. It is a lable.....kind of like Freeride.

We should be concerned about the future especially how it will now be after Saddam has been removed from the gene pool.

Common ground? Yes and they are labled fence sitters by everyone. There are reasons (varied) why people lean to different degrees to their own side. The existence of two major parties is good an bad. Many times nothing gets done (good or bad? depends on the subject and what side you are on I guess) The end results normally is a compramise that both sides will have to live with.....if either side had 100% ultimate power I think the US would go into the sh!tter faster than anyone can imagine.

Did I miss anything other than spell check

 

[MMike]

http://msnbc.msn.com/Default.aspx?id=3708757&p1=0

another interesting article....Iraqis questioning just how much better off they are now....

 

[$tinkle]

Originally posted by MMike
http://msnbc.msn.com/Default.aspx?id=3708757&p1=0

another interesting article....Iraqis questioning just how much better off they are now....

yes, one Iraqi in particular - the erstwhile leader - is certainly not fairing as well as he was the previous 35 years.

do i really have to trot out the gains realized by the avg iraqi citizen since we've started occupying? Let's just pretend i did instead, & i'll keep my pom-poms under my desk.

 

[Toshi]

and how much of their previous misery was due to saddam? and how much due to the US? (hint: before saddam life wasn't all that bad. hint 2: sanctions don't increase quality of life)