This Carbon thing is getting out of hand
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- 2011 = teh carbonz warz all downhill from here banzai carbon whore carbon 9/11 conspiracy carbon! o noes! carbon-ated! carbonfiberedfailure carbowned demo9 mom wont pay s&h dick measuring contest geometryandheadtoobs hambaconcheesedoodle i know a smart guy ingineerering no carbon no friday slaterfail tardthread ofweek nominee thinkofthechildren thissh!tagain veal production
boy i think you might be legally _____.
(MOD EDIT: No personal attacks)
user edit: that was a quote from an adam sandler movie. sorry if it was taken the wrong way.
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You are right; let me frame your point differently though. All normal 'composites' are a resin and a fiber reinforcement. All resins in normal composites are polymers, or plastics.
Saying carbon fiber is plastic is insanely generic. That's like saying you have a bike made out of metal. Doesn't really mean a whole lot.
It also doesn't hold any water in "reality". "Plastics" (technically correct term: polymers) have such an insanely wide scope of possible functional performance characteristics that if you're going to rule it out as a material for any particular application just because its "plastic", then I know a Nigerian prince who needs your help.
Polymers have diverse properties, but it's within a set of limits. Have you seen a plastic that was harder than a structural metal? For sanity let's exclude metals like lithium. Epoxy resins are tough, but no polymer abrades better than a structural metal, unless it avoids abrading by deforming... and epoxy resins are brittle by nature.
I was trying to ignore the laughably patronizing "technically correct term: polymers" but... c'mon
define "harder" - what's your evaluation criteria?
The biggest drawback with carbon fiber composites for a DH frame is its relatively low impact & puncture strength (I'm assuming this is what you are referring to by "brittleness") after it's cured. Right now, the best (read "cheapest") way around this is just increasing the amount of carbon weave layers, but that's just a band-aid over the underlying issues.
I'm by no means an expert on composites, but I do have a very thorough understanding of polymers.
Hey just wondering what you guys think about molecules? Personally, I love 'em! Just my $0.02.
fvck electrons
http://www.crucialunit.com/mp3/premium_iced_tea/04_-_Crucial_Unit_-_F*ck_Electrons.mp3
change the "*" to a "u" to follow the link
We're on basically the same page. My chief complaint is that the frame will be haggard after a season or two.
These terms are mechanically specific - hardness is how resistant it is to deformation, the state of brittleness means it won't deform much before breaking. Plasticity is the malleability of a material, and why plastics are called as such- they are mostly known for that property. A matrix of polymer and a crystalline structure like glass or carbon makes a stiff, light material. That's what it is though.. a polymer and a crystalline structure.
The kind of resin and the kind of fibers and the quantity/ratio of each will define the properties, but it remains that no resin's surface is going to hold up as well against abrasion (read: rock grinding) as metal. The structure could be fine, with enough layers it will not puncture, but it will probably either chip or gouge and you'll get a whitish spot or a tuft of carbon fuzz.
Aluminum gouges too... I'm just saying any composite structure so far will be worse.
Here is one reason I will NEVER buy a carbon bike (unless specificly addressed).
I was at a race and we were all piled into the shuttle truck. People on the edge holding their bikes in the middle. One guy near me had a CF frame... Well the guy next to him didn't notice but his pedal was touching the CF guy's chainstay. After a modest 10min shuttle ride with the pedal rubbing against the chainstay, the pedal had worn all the way through and there was a HOLE in the guy's nice new carbon frame.
I've NEVER seen anything like this with Al or steel.
So when people talk about laying it down in a rock garden, it isn't always the "hit" that they are worried about (the analogy to the hammer). It is also the SCRAPE factor to be concerned with. So how about this? Take a marble tile and crack it... Take the sharp edge and rake it down your frame with a decent amount of pressure. Then do that with an Al frame. Which holds up better?
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shuttle truck + race = LOLHere is one reason I will NEVER buy a carbon bike (unless specificly addressed).
I was at a race and we were all piled into the shuttle truck. People on the edge holding their bikes in the middle. One guy near me had a CF frame... Well the guy next to him didn't notice but his pedal was touching the CF guy's chainstay. After a modest 10min shuttle ride with the pedal rubbing against the chainstay, the pedal had worn all the way through and there was a HOLE in the guy's nice new carbon frame.
I've NEVER seen anything like this with Al or steel.
also, my above comment was a quote from an adam sandler movie, meant for some lulz, didn't mean to offend anyone.
Simple test: I crash alot (many here can attest) My bikes are dented and haggard in alu form. I will check back here in 1,2,3,4,5,10 seasons time with pics of my haggard ride...
I am NOT an engineer and dont pretend to be; Ive worked with and around CF/TP for years and my experience says the doubt is massively unwarranted. My father was an engineer and a very well respected and noted architect and who doesnt trust dad over anything else? That plus solid experiece says that you are talking from your dumper. (That and you are clearly a regular user with a troll account you use for interjecting in threads you were previously dismissed from....) [Slater out -> Imp in] {time to check some logs...}
I have done things to CF that Alu or even steel would cry at... confident.
Yes, I *HAVE* destroyed plenty of frames; Bent bars and cranks; done awful things to my bikes. If anyone should be worried its me, but im not.
Ask YOURSELF this, you say "why are you defending this ONE material so much"... why are you attacking it so much? Years go by and this doubt erodes, yet some staunch opponent remains to disdain...
It is the future, it is a better material, it is mature and durable, you are choosing to disdain it for insubstantial and outmoded/dated reasons.
And why, despite the CF rep of the past, are you alone in your claims of lack of durabilty and disdain?
This is not 1992.
"Aluminum gouges too... I'm just saying any composite structure so far will be worse." = willful ignorance.
I am NOT an engineer and dont pretend to be; Ive worked with and around CF/TP for years and my experience says the doubt is massively unwarranted. My father was an engineer and a very well respected and noted architect and who doesnt trust dad over anything else? That plus solid experiece says that you are talking from your dumper. (That and you are clearly a regular user with a troll account you use for interjecting in threads you were previously dismissed from....) [Slater out -> Imp in] {time to check some logs...}
I have done things to CF that Alu or even steel would cry at... confident.
Yes, I *HAVE* destroyed plenty of frames; Bent bars and cranks; done awful things to my bikes. If anyone should be worried its me, but im not.
Ask YOURSELF this, you say "why are you defending this ONE material so much"... why are you attacking it so much? Years go by and this doubt erodes, yet some staunch opponent remains to disdain...
It is the future, it is a better material, it is mature and durable, you are choosing to disdain it for insubstantial and outmoded/dated reasons.
And why, despite the CF rep of the past, are you alone in your claims of lack of durabilty and disdain?
This is not 1992.
"Aluminum gouges too... I'm just saying any composite structure so far will be worse." = willful ignorance.
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can't we just go back to the antidote frames and drool over how sharp they look? 
and anyways for impact resistance just ad a layer of kevlar or aramid fiber on any given carbon product, will look like **** though so you probably have to paint the it.
and anyways for impact resistance just ad a layer of kevlar or aramid fiber on any given carbon product, will look like **** though so you probably have to paint the it.
carbon fiber toilet paper? man your sh!ts must be something crazy
Bacon protects the best!can't we just go back to the antidote frames and drool over how sharp they look?
and anyways for impact resistance just ad a layer of kevlar or aramid fiber on any given carbon product, will look like **** though so you probably have to paint the it.
On topic, that Antidote frame - CF or ALu - looks pretty tasty!
"This Carbon thing is getting out of hand"
I dated a chick who said that once.
Sorry dude I didn't realize your family was carbon fiber, I'll try to be more respectful.
No see you're doing that just because he mentioned it, now you're having a schizophrenic conversation with yourself
I like this thread because it's transformed Banzai's usual quirky posts into pure unadulterated Crabon FibRAGE.
Its Carboniom Philanthorpazy you turtle nurturer!
Antagony.
ill take one of the 140mm frames, in 3 years when i can afford one
Only E-riders ride carbon, real world DH riders ride bamboo
Sry, this ones 130, but theres a 120 and a 140 available, so.......
Didn't anybody noticed the downtube protector they made at TREK 2 years ago for their first carbon Remedies? They showed a slo-mo video with comparison of different CF tubes being lateraly hit by a very sharp object with triangular cross-section.
Or the DT protectors for the Alu Session 8's and 88's that were (are) cracking and tearing from impacts?
I don't know about them (those were of CF?). The one I remember presented for carbon Remedy was made of strange elastic material, don't know if composite, it behaved like a thick gum brutally slowing down the hit speed and spreading local stress on wider area. In that comparison video, the edge of sharp object almost started to bent the standard CF tube which responded and very quickly gained the original state. With that new protector, the edge traveled maybe 1/10th of distance into CF and the rebound speed was visually slower.
Oh, I know the vid you're talking about. My ADD knee jerk tangential responses might seem accusatory, but I mean (apparently unsuccesfully) to be additive.
The vid was comparing a simple CF layup vs Treks OCLV (5?) layup and then further the protector equipped OCLV.
Pardon my lack of focus!
You rang m'lord?
Apologies for lateness I've been kinds busy. As I still am. Will chime in if needed later.... when I get the time.
In the mean time I will say carbon DH frames are the future, the past (Lahar) and the present (Fury, V10c).
PEEK and other thermoplastic resin matrix composites should also be the future as these are seriously tough polymers, just very difficult to process into useable parts/components presently. To be more futuristic still - titanium matrix carbon reinforced composites will be the be all and end all!
In the mean time DH carbon frames should ideally incorporate some kind of external abrasion resistance like, as has been mentioned, aramid layers (would need to be protected form UV/sunlight though), or even thin titanium sheet or mesh. But this is not entirely nesessary as the Lahars have and continue to demonstrate.
I'm highly sceptical that Easton made genuine CNT resinforced resin parts, mainly based on the vast expense of CNTs and the comparitively low price of their bars. Also the nature of CNTs mean that it is extremely difficult to obtain an even distribution of them in the resin matrix - they clump together something chronic. If Easton has found a viable way to distribute CNTs evenly in an epoxy polymer matrix so that it truly exploits the high performance properties of these wonder materials then I highly doubt they'd be fannying about applying this technology to just push bike components. There are many big industries out there that would pay hansomely for that kind of useable technology.
Anyway, I got work to do....
Dood, it's carbon! The frame you just started desiring has already broken on some ROX. And it hasn't even been made yet!
Couldn't agree more. That's the bike I want the most