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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I can only speak for what I see but here it is rare to see kids on trails with continuous steep descents, except for the bike park kids with full TLD kits and wireless shifting. They are riding the rolling suburban parks or unsanctioned jumps/stunts behind industrial parks.
I don't disagree. At all.

But devinci is run by bike industry bros just like everyone else and the idea of growing into a purchase and living dangerously and seeking out the ways to do that has some merit too. Seattle does have that.......just not at duthie. The ones that want it will find the exits. You can haul ass in places that aren't bikeparks. Mr chainsaw sought those out and/or figured it out. Maybe that's for those kids?
 
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Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,414
20,204
Sleazattle
I don't disagree. At all.

But devinci is run by bike industry bros just like everyone else and the idea of growing into a purchase and living dangerously and seeking out the ways to do that has some merit too. Seattle does have that.......just not at duthie. The ones that want it will find the exits. You can haul ass in places that aren't bikeparks. Mr chainsaw sought those out and/or figured it out. Maybe that's for those kids?

The exits require a ride for 99.9% of kids. So that means a parent with the time and means to do that, or are into the sport. Pretty much the bike park kids.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
The exits require a ride for 99.9% of kids.
if you live in seattle

kids exist in issaquah

You know as well as I do that the idea of places is equally as valuable as regular access to those places in reality. Especially when you're a kid.

I'm more annoyed at the idea that it takes fortnine bro riding some of the tightest jank on the planet to realize that wheelbase numbers matter.
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Perhaps it has been a while since you have been here, but the majority of people living near "the exits" live in neighborhoods with HOAs that require things like minimum 10 acres lots, 3 bathrooms for every bed and a security gates, @rideit kinfolk.
what can we do to include flamethrowers with every devinci chainsaw purchase?

I think mr smith would agree
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,639
5,558
UK
What's the actual deal with the Ryan Dude? Throughout the video he has the weirdest riding position and seems to be putting on goon riding and staging "situations" just to make his *point*. Moaning about brakes in sections that barely need braking. Moaning about pedal strikes while paying fuck all attention to crank timing or pedal position. moaning about wheel flop when he's stalled on top of a rock roller in a stupid position with poor balance? moaning about a long wheelbase on a long wheelbase bike? I've no idea how he measured sag but he's clearly got the back end far too soft if he can almost bottom the shock out pushing down on it with one hand on the saddle. I guess that was staged to make his point too? No fucking wonder he couldn't pop the front to manny. Moaning about the pricepoint and the bike not being noob friendly was just weird. Some noob getting sucked straight in and making a huge mistake at a multi thousand dollar pricepoint has always been a thing. always will be. And it's far from exclusive to mtb.
Watching the video gave me the same feeling so many million+ subscriber youtube channels tend to with their polished professional production but ultimately worthless content.
Bike just looks to be a reworked bigger slacker Spartan. Which I guess probably would suit some people. The sort who wouldn't worry about the problems he's complaining about and have the sense to buy a bike sized to their riding preference.

The trails in the video didn't look particularly tight or technical compared to an awful lot of trail bike riding we have here. Plus ours generally have the added technicality of being wet. I reckon this guy would cry if he ever rode here. Fake crying "professionally produced" for views, likes and subscribes obviously.
 

rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
23,317
11,491
In the cleavage of the Tetons
Perhaps it has been a while since you have been here, but the majority of people living near "the exits" live in neighborhoods with HOAs that require things like minimum 10 acres lots, 3 bathrooms for every bed and a security gates, @rideit kinfolk.
Lol, my house is on a .1 acre lot, (easy to mow!), with 2 bathrooms for four bedrooms. All in under 2000 SQ. Feet.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,653
3,093
The trails in the video didn't look particularly tight or technical compared to an awful lot of trail bike riding we have here. Plus ours generally have the added technicality of being wet. I reckon this guy would cry if he ever rode here. Fake crying "professionally produced" for views, likes and subscribes obviously.
This! That looked really flowy and not super tight at all. Maybe a trip to ride hiking trails in the Alps is on order for him.
 

PUSHIND

PUSH Industries (Duh)
Dec 5, 2003
221
251
Colorado
I think there's something that Push intrinsically misses with their tuning, this seems to be backed up in their analysis of shaft velocity speeds and claiming that they don't ever see above x amount. There's a long shit filled thread on this on mtbr, but it seems to be that they ignore or claim above a certain speed doesn't happen, when there appears to be ample evidence it does. This would 100% explain the spiking and harshness that I've felt with them IMO. Darren always likes to say that I'm just bagging on the HC97 and they've had "thousands of other happy customers", but he claimed vehemently that it wasn't a poppet valve...and then went on to 100% describe it's configuration as a poppet valve. I've had other push tuned products too, forks and rear shocks. It was the same thing with both. Never tried the Push MX tune...but I had the Avalanche shock that they licensed the design from. Supposedly they came out with the 11.6 to move away from this, but I think it was because they were "stuck" to existing shock architecture and unless they were making their own shock completely, like Avalanche was, it didn't really make sense to continue down that road.

But all of this is why I'm a lot more interested in Vorsprung's coil shock. Everything that Steve has said over the years "makes sense". Vs. Push and some absolutely bizarre stuff. I remember years back when they were claiming that the lower end Fox open bath vanilla R dampers weren't a shimmed setup, when by the diagrams and parts they clearly were. It wasn't a huge point, but Darren eventually conceded after being shown...it's just these 100% wrong things where they've solidified rather than corrected themselves. The poppet valve HC97 was a great example. Really makes me question if they know what they are doing...or the marketing guy is just making stuff up and not communicating from the "engineering" guy. Dunno...
Jm, I think at this point you must have a Google alert setup so that anytime the term PUSH is used on the internet you can come out and flame on us! :-)

To be clear.....again. I've never claimed that high shaft velocities don't exist, simply that if you look at a histogram of on-board suspension data you will find that they are not frequent. If you ride a trail that has 10,000 events and 9,000 events fall between 0 and 2m/sec of velocity and 1,000 of those events are above 2m/sec it is my opinion that focusing on the 9,000 events makes more sense. To be clear, we have thousands of hours of data logging in our database and I am very aware that extremely high shaft velocities exist.

As for Avalanche, we never licensed anything from them. We simply purchased a base valve from them and installed it into our MX Tune head unit for a short period of time. Customers didn't care for the fact that tools were needed to adjust it so we wanted to offer that. Because Avalanche stuff is made in Taiwan it was easier and quicker for us to design and manufacture a newer version featuring external dials in-house here in Colorado. This is why we came out with the V2 MX tune. It had absolutely nothing to do with licensing. 11.6 came years later and also had absolutely nothing to do with this. I have no idea where you're getting your information but it is 100% incorrect.

You continue to jab at me on the internet...I say we set up a video call where we can discuss suspension and I can answer any questions that you may have. I can arrange the call on my end. Just email sales@pushindustries.com with your contact info and I'll get it going.

On a side note....bumpers and HBO:

 

konifere

Monkey
Dec 20, 2021
531
661
@PUSHIND Just throwing this out there, but to make it even more worthwhile, maybe that video call could be interesting other monkeys if that's a possibility.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Jm, I think at this point you must have a Google alert setup so that anytime the term PUSH is used on the internet you can come out and flame on us! :-)

To be clear.....again. I've never claimed that high shaft velocities don't exist, simply that if you look at a histogram of on-board suspension data you will find that they are not frequent. If you ride a trail that has 10,000 events and 9,000 events fall between 0 and 2m/sec of velocity and 1,000 of those events are above 2m/sec it is my opinion that focusing on the 9,000 events makes more sense. To be clear, we have thousands of hours of data logging in our database and I am very aware that extremely high shaft velocities exist.

As for Avalanche, we never licensed anything from them. We simply purchased a base valve from them and installed it into our MX Tune head unit for a short period of time. Customers didn't care for the fact that tools were needed to adjust it so we wanted to offer that. Because Avalanche stuff is made in Taiwan it was easier and quicker for us to design and manufacture a newer version featuring external dials in-house here in Colorado. This is why we came out with the V2 MX tune. It had absolutely nothing to do with licensing. 11.6 came years later and also had absolutely nothing to do with this. I have no idea where you're getting your information but it is 100% incorrect.

You continue to jab at me on the internet...I say we set up a video call where we can discuss suspension and I can answer any questions that you may have. I can arrange the call on my end. Just email sales@pushindustries.com with your contact info and I'll get it going.

On a side note....bumpers and HBO:

He's not gonna do that. Why not just make a video of some dyno plots, put it on youtube showing what happens to damping at super high shaft speeds and why it is or isn't significant in the stuff you sell. The mystery man behind the curtain working black magic motif does get pretty tiresome in the suspension tuning world (not directly solely at push, just generally). You have the acquisition tools and you already have data, show off a little bit.

I don't know JM's history regarding your bits and pieces but it should be pretty easy to lay out why he's off base or not. It would take just as much time as a one on one conference call, accomplish the same thing, and likely produce a greater appreciation of how you design things.
 

PUSHIND

PUSH Industries (Duh)
Dec 5, 2003
221
251
Colorado
He's not gonna do that. Why not just make a video of some dyno plots, put it on youtube showing what happens to damping at super high shaft speeds and why it is or isn't significant in the stuff you sell. The mystery man behind the curtain working black magic motif does get pretty tiresome in the suspension tuning world (not directly solely at push, just generally). You have the acquisition tools and you already have data, show off a little bit.

I don't know JM's history regarding your bits and pieces but it should be pretty easy to lay out why he's off base or not. It would take just as much time as a one on one conference call, accomplish the same thing, and likely produce a greater appreciation of how you design things.
I've done plenty of that:

 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I've done plenty of that:

that's a pretty good generalized video of using one but not specific to what JM is griping about or what I was referencing is it?

I don't know what 1/10th scenario you were saying you don't focus on in your previous post. Looks like that run in the video went up to 40ft/s if the closed captioning caught that correctly?

what's this one?
 

jrewing

Monkey
Aug 22, 2010
245
155
Maydena Oz
He's not gonna do that. Why not just make a video of some dyno plots, put it on youtube showing what happens to damping at super high shaft speeds and why it is or isn't significant in the stuff you sell. The mystery man behind the curtain working black magic motif does get pretty tiresome in the suspension tuning world (not directly solely at push, just generally). You have the acquisition tools and you already have data, show off a little bit.

I don't know JM's history regarding your bits and pieces but it should be pretty easy to lay out why he's off base or not. It would take just as much time as a one on one conference call, accomplish the same thing, and likely produce a greater appreciation of how you design things.
I agree on the black magic, secret squirrel stuff.
Steve @Vorsprung
Terry @shocktreatment are happy to put stuff out for the public to discuss. Guess thats someone who are comfortable in their expertise. All so Aussies are generally No BS people.
 

PUSHIND

PUSH Industries (Duh)
Dec 5, 2003
221
251
Colorado
that's a pretty good generalized video of using one but not specific to what JM is griping about or what I was referencing is it?

I don't know what 1/10th scenario you were saying you don't focus on in your previous post. Looks like that run in the video went up to 40ft/s if the closed captioning caught that correctly?

what's this one?
Just meaning that I'm happy to share whatever. The problem is that most technical suspension threads get derailed because of so much assuming that goes on. Some one asks a question, it gets answered, and it is followed by "I just can't believe that is true". Not that there's any supporting information....just seems like it wouldn't be the case.

Anyway, this thread isn't the place for it, but it would be simple to do an ask-and-answer session. Like I said.....RM LIVE! :rofl:

I honestly would have to go back and look at that specific test but I believe it was up to 3m/sec(118in/sec)
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Just meaning that I'm happy to share whatever. The problem is that most technical suspension threads get derailed because of so much assuming that goes on. Some one asks a question, it gets answered, and it is followed by "I just can't believe that is true". Not that there's any supporting information....just seems like it wouldn't be the case.

Anyway, this thread isn't the place for it, but it would be simple to do an ask-and-answer session. Like I said.....RM LIVE! :rofl:

I honestly would have to go back and look at that specific test but I believe it was up to 3m/sec(118in/sec)
I went back and read JM's post that you quoted. I'm not sure a live session would remedy that anyway

I'm pretty much relegated to shitty restackor models so I do like to see actual real life data when possible. I'll have to wait for JM to clarify his gripes regarding super high shaft velocity issues. I'll gouge my own eyes out before I go read anything on mtbr.

I'd probably have a few things I'd want to bring up myself in an rm live session ;)
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I agree on the black magic, secret squirrel stuff.
Steve @Vorsprung
Terry @shocktreatment are happy to put stuff out for the public to discuss. Guess thats someone who are comfortable in their expertise. All so Aussies are generally No BS people.
I had a good long talk with steve in person a few years ago about the few scenarios where cavitation and hysteresis were actually beneficial. He was considering a few ways to tune it in intentionally if he could control specifically when it would happen. We were trying to come up with names that made fun of rapid recovery but weren't sue worthy in court :rofl:

Agreed. No BS.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,982
9,642
AK
Well this is a bizarre turn. Darren knows the threads and what the issues are if he wants to address them as far as the velocities, but searching for "Push" on every mtb site to try and "correct" everyone is not what is right about this industry. There are other tuners, with dynos and telemetry, that are saying higher than 2m/s is common and not so rare. Really, all the info on this is back in those threads. Do you really want to "get in to it" like that? You're just going to claim it doesn't happen frequently enough and others claim it does.

You flat out claimed a poppet valve was not a poppet valve. I didn't see that in your shit-post above. This isn't a good look. You'll notice in the recent mtbr thread, I said my peace and was out.
 

Leafy

Monkey
Sep 13, 2019
548
357
It also highlighted the need to find reviewers your height. My size chainsaw would probably be shorter wheel base than his every day bike he enjoys on those trails.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
What's it called when someone who sells a product comes into a thread, speaks kind of patronizingly to someone who has issues with one of said products, says they're going to do a thing that theoretically explains away concerns, but then never does that thing once they think they've effectively just gotten the product issue raiser quiet?

It's happened ever since the internet, goes especially deep on this website, and is pretty much 90% of iNdUsTrY pArTiCiPaTiOn here over the last 20 some odd years.

There's gotta be a name for that.