[jonKranked]

stop posting links to outside

A Better Derailleur? Supre Drive Splits the Traditional Derailleur in Two

The Supre Drive solves the problem of derailleurs breaking. It’s reliable like a gearbox, but it doesn’t have the drag and weight disadvantages of gearboxes. No other mountain bike drivetrain achieves this: the reliability of a gearbox combined with the efficiency and low weight of a derailleur...

www.vitalmtb.com

 

[jonKranked]

that does look really interesting though. one of those things that seems so straightforward i'm surprised nobody tried it already.

i wonder what bike company he's working with that's already developing a frame around it?

 

[StiHacka]

check this guy out. love the thinking here.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-lal-bikes-supre-drive-splitting-a-derailleur-in-half-before-it-happens-on-the-trail.html

Looks great but he's hardly "the industry".

 

[6thElement]

that does look really interesting though. one of those things that seems so straightforward i'm surprised nobody tried it already.

i wonder what bike company he's working with that's already developing a frame around it?

Forbidden is my guess.

 

[jonKranked]

Forbidden is my guess.

i'd guess a canadian company. possibly one that's already making idler high pivot bikes.

 

[Nick]

Looks great but he's hardly "the industry".

yet

 

[jonKranked]

someone over on vital has actually ridden it, says that he agrees with matt beers assessment that blindfolded you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in shift quality.

 

[6thElement]

i'd guess a canadian company. possibly one that's already making idler high pivot bikes.

Like Forbidden.

 

[jonKranked]

Like Forbidden.

in the interview w/ the guy on PB he mentioned his first proper bike was a Norco.

 

[Andeh]

I dunno. I've never actually blown up a derailleur. Bent a hanger, yes, but not the derailleur itself. My AXS one has some scars on it but it works fine. I'm also not lusting after a high pivot bike because I don't ride rough stuff frequently enough to warrant it - and don't want the lengthening bike feel in corners. Plus that setup (in the video) looks like it's got horrendous chainslap, and noisy bikes drive me nuts.

 

[englertracing]

check this guy out. love the thinking here.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-lal-bikes-supre-drive-splitting-a-derailleur-in-half-before-it-happens-on-the-trail.html

That thing is pretty wild

 

[OGRipper]

Pretty cool conceptually, and props to that guy for following through with all he's done, but even he admits that it restricts suspension design, and the need for a specific frame is also a strike that will limit widespread adoption. Still, super interesting and neat for a niche market.

 

[jonKranked]

Pretty cool conceptually, and props to that guy for following through with all he's done, but even he admits that it restricts suspension design, and the need for a specific frame is also a strike that will limit widespread adoption. Still, super interesting and neat for a niche market.

there's definitely limitations, but there's also some benefits. i certainly don't see it unseating traditional deraillers, but there's absolutely potential for it.

 

[jonKranked]

oks like it's got horrendous chainslap, and noisy bikes drive me nuts.

reading through PB and vital, its apparently very quiet. chainslap probably isn't that bad since the free lengths of chain appear to be shorter.

the video the chain looks to be moving a fair amount, but bear in mind it doesn't require a friction clutch.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

I wonder how you proceed to remove the rear wheel?

 

[Lelandjt]

I think bikes are diverging into two types. You've got the Scott types that are using a FSR layout with vertical shock to be as light and simple as possible. Then you'll have the high pivot, idler, maybe weird transmission bikes that are shooting for the pinnacle of descending prowess with no concession to complexity or weight. Caught in the middle are the mini link bikes like Santa Cruz, Ibis, and Pivot. Their design will never be as light and simple as what Transition and Scott use but it doesn't give any better kinematics and doesn't offer the promised advantages of the "weird" bikes.

 

[Gary]

I wonder how you proceed to remove the rear wheel?

Looks fairly simple to remove the chain from the idler pulley which would in turn release the tension from the chain for rear wheel removal. Not as quick or simple as a traditional mech but somehow I don't think breaking pitstop wheel change record were the guys main concern.

I like that the system seems to address the issue of reduced chain wrap and tension found in the smaller sprockets of modern stupid wide ratio cassette gearing.
This design would be a winner in regards to increasing drivetrain life on Emtbs for sure

 

[iRider]

Caught in the middle are the mini link bikes like Santa Cruz, Ibis, and Pivot. Their design will never be as light and simple as what Transition and Scott use but it doesn't give any better kinematics and doesn't offer the promised advantages of the "weird" bikes.

So whe are they exactly caught in the middle? Just take a FSR bike and shrink the chain stays to 2-4", and voila, you have a mini link bike. With both layouts you can get good kinematics and equally light frames, I even argue you can go lighter with a mini link bike as you have two structural units (main frame, swingarm) instead of three (main frame, chain stays, seat stays).

 

[Lelandjt]

With both layouts you can get good kinematics and equally light frames, I even argue you can go lighter with a mini link bike as you have two structural units (main frame, swingarm) instead of three (main frame, chain stays, seat stays).

You can't. Mini link bikes are a less efficient use of structure and materials than a 4-bar. That's why the new SC XC bike isn't a mini link and why the new Ibis XC bike is quite a bit heavier than a Spark RC or Epic. In the "trail" or "enduro" category look at who makes the lightest bikes and look at the weight of mini link bikes. SC is in a worse position than Ibis or Pivot here because their new low shock arrangement is really heavy but still, they can't be as light as vertical shock 4-bar, which can have as good kinematics.

 

[Happymtb.fr]

Trinity Mountain Bikes on Instagram: "Exploring an old idea with new tech. Just trying to push the limits of what we can create. #mtb #rn01 #sram #axs #rockshox #custom #prototype #enduro #enduromtb #aluminum #machined #fabrication #mullet #highpivot #gearbox #downhill #allmountain #kinematics #concept #manufacturing #handmade #steelisreal #blackcrowcarbon #itrack #preorder #comingsoon"

4,117 likes, 56 comments - trinity_mtb on November 9, 2021: "Exploring an old idea with new tech. Just trying to push the limits of what we can create. #mtb #rn01 #sram #axs #rockshox #custom #prototype #enduro #enduromtb #aluminum #machined #fabrication #mullet #highpivot #gearbox #downhill...

www.instagram.com

Just saw that which is kind of a new take on the Honda bike's drivetrain. Cool to see new ideas

 

[iRider]

Unno Horn is less than 1600 g w/o shock
'22 Scott spark is 1870 g with
Specialized Epic 1947 g with

Pretty similar I would say.

Pivot Phoenix 29 Carbon XL Frame Only with hanger 3171.4g (Sicklines)
2013 V10 was claimed 3.15 kg frame + Vivid Air shock
Scott Gambler 29 is claimed to be 2650 g w/o shock
Transition TR11 27.5 is claimed 4000 g (M, w/o shock)
Cube Two15 29" is claimed 3.3 kg w/o shock

Same here, frame weights seem to depend more on the philosophy of the manufacturer than the layout of the bike.

 

[sethimus]

now do the last bike

 

[slyfink]

Back to the LAL bike guy... I hadn't watched to video till this weekend. I found out he is local to me, and lives on the trails I ride regularly. In fact, to access one of the trails in the video, we ride through his yard. I always wondered who was cool enough to let randos ride through his yard! @canadmos : a whole bunch of that is filmed at Camp Fortune.

While I think the design is awesome - I'm totally on board with anything that gets the derailleur hanger out of harms way - I wonder why he went through all that trouble to redesign the derailleur system, but didn't factor in reducing unsprung weight. It seems to me that one of the biggest advantages of the gearbox system is reducing unsprung weight at the rear wheel. From my untrained perspective, it seems this system could be designed to shift the cassette centrally, closer to the BB no? I might ask him the next time I ride through his yard!

 

[HAB]

Back to the LAL bike guy... I hadn't watched to video till this weekend. I found out he is local to me, and lives on the trails I ride regularly. In fact, to access one of the trails in the video, we ride through his yard. I always wondered who was cool enough to let randos ride through his yard! @canadmos : a whole bunch of that is filmed at Camp Fortune.

While I think the design is awesome - I'm totally on board with anything that gets the derailleur hanger out of harms way - I wonder why he went through all that trouble to redesign the derailleur system, but didn't factor in reducing unsprung weight. It seems to me that one of the biggest advantages of the gearbox system is reducing unsprung weight at the rear wheel. From my untrained perspective, it seems this system could be designed to shift the cassette centrally, closer to the BB no? I might ask him the next time I ride through his yard!

I bet chainline is a big limitation in trying to mount the cassette in the frame. The run of chain from the crank to the cassette would be super short, and that would limit now many gears / how wide a range you can stuff in there. Probably fine for a DH bike, less fine for a modern 12s trail bike.

 

[jonKranked]

I bet chainline is a big limitation in trying to mount the cassette in the frame. The run of chain from the crank to the cassette would be super short, and that would limit now many gears / how wide a range you can stuff in there. Probably fine for a DH bike, less fine for a modern 12s trail bike.

also packaging issues when trying to design the suspension system, especially with such a large cassette.

 

[OGRipper]

Isn't there at least some reduction in unsprung weight with this design, because part of the derailleur is moved to the middle of the bike? Or that reduction offset by the additional mounting points on the swingarm and other extra stuff going on?

 

[trib]

What's right with the industry is people making weird shit with almost zero commercial interest for their personal enjoyment... Like a disk/coaster brake

Long live the makers asking "why not"

 

[SylentK]

Bong Shed Ginger Bread House

Not really bike industry, but bong shed industry?

 

[Kanye West]

Cordless night lights. Can't believe they took that long but they simplify the whole operation greatly.

 

[Jm_]

Cordless night lights. Can't believe they took that long but they simplify the whole operation greatly.

Inherently flawed IME, but there are some good points.

You want the most lumens and most burn time on your head IME, not your handlebar. This ties the biggest and brightest lights to big batteries, not to mention fairly large head units. You can at least get a decently powerful head unit that isn't crazy big, but you still need some serious battery to burn for more than just 1.5 hours. Self-contained is good as a secondary or a bar-light, but it just doesn't do it for my primary source IME.

Light remotes on the other hand...I'm finding those as useful as dropper posts/remotes. Going into a "climb" mode with minimal light, being able to brighten as your speed increases, etc...

I will say that self-contained lights are 1000x better than a decade or two back, well, maybe not 1000, but now that you can get at least 1000 lumens in light with some decent burn time for around 60-70, it's a huge win for night riding of all sorts, commuting, makes a great back-up (for both more dedicated setups or the long-afternoon ride that gets into a dark evening/sunset) or bar-mount. I do like the progression here...but again, inherently flawed without the same longevity and 2000-3000 lumen output of dedicated non-self contained lamps. That rules them out as a primary light source for me and I want the primary light source on my head for max visbility/ability to see what's coming.

Yeah, it's kinda a PITA trying to route an extension line to a remote battery (I'm finding the jersey-pocket in my XC ski jacket is pretty good), but the 2500 lumens when hitting jumps and gaps at night at speed is worth it.

 

[Lelandjt]

I've got Lezyne's biggest self contained handlebar light. It installs/removes in seconds with a rubber belt. It's brighter than the stock headlight on my Sur-ron (which I removed) and plenty for trail riding. I use it for night time grocery runs on the Sur-ron.

 

[sethimus]

will somebody PLEASE think of the wild life?

 

[canadmos]

I've got Lezyne's biggest self contained handlebar light. It installs/removes in seconds with a rubber belt. It's brighter than the stock headlight on my Sur-ron (which I removed) and plenty for trail riding. I use it for night time grocery runs on the Sur-ron.

Looks nice, I like the mount on it. Only thing that seems odd is that they don't mention the battery capacity.

I picked up one of these recently (have yet to test it out, ughhh) and is pretty similar - https://magicshine.com/collections/bike-front-light/products/magicshine-rn-3000

Its freaking bright and has a 10000mAh battery. They say it will last 2 hours on high, but we'll see...

Huge benefit is the USB C charge port, so it charges quite fast.

It has too many modes though..

 

[dump]

Since we're on the topic, in my experience night riding, there's such a thing as too bright... particularly when in dense woods where the trees close to you catch the light, creating highlights to the detriment of the light shining on the trail. You get used to it, but I find myself not going full blast all the time... and not wanting anything more. IIRC, my setup is 2x 1200 lumen (handlebar and helmet). When I'm in snow, I pretty much just ride on low unless there's cloudcover/moonlight, in which case I'm often just off.

 

[Jm_]

will somebody PLEASE think of the wild life?

No

 

[Jm_]

Since we're on the topic, in my experience night riding, there's such a thing as too bright... particularly when in dense woods where the trees close to you catch the light, creating highlights to the detriment of the light shining on the trail. You get used to it, but I find myself not going full blast all the time... and not wanting anything more. IIRC, my setup is 2x 1200 lumen (handlebar and helmet). When I'm in snow, I pretty much just ride on low unless there's cloudcover/moonlight, in which case I'm often just off.

I haven't found that necessarily, but what I do find that intensity depends on my speed. The faster I go, the more I need to be able to see ahead and flood the area with more light. Just tooling around slow in the snow, 500 lumens can be enough due to how reflective it is, but it can also not illuminate "catchers" as well. I hit a branch a few years back where my eye got swollen shut. That shit'll rock your world when you aren't expecting it.

 

[StiHacka]

Since we're on the topic, in my experience night riding, there's such a thing as too bright... particularly when in dense woods where the trees close to you catch the light, creating highlights to the detriment of the light shining on the trail.

I can't run my handlebar light at full 1800 lm, the leaves just become "too hot" for my eyes' comfort.

 

[Jm_]

I can't run my handlebar light at full 1800 lm, the leaves just become "too hot" for my eyes' comfort.

I can understand that though...

I think some might have to do with beam dispersal and flood too though. Some lights are very "spot" ish and work well from the helmet, the floods work well from the bar, but you need a good combo of each. I'll say this too tends to be one of the disadvantages of the self-contained units, they tend to not flood as well IME.

 

[canadmos]

Could some of this be down to an individuals eye sight as well? I am nearsighted so have to wear contacts when riding - not sure if its related, but I also have piss poor vision at night. So full blast all the time is how I rock my lights.

Could also maybe due to the colour of the light? My old lights are much more yellow (warm?) looking, so even at full blast, to me, it seems more natural.

Compare this to the new light I got, which is pretty much like having a blue/white laser beam pointed out front.

 

[Jm_]

I've never round "too many lumens" for commuting on the other hand. If I could have laser beams that burn skin, I would. That would at least have a chance of getting the attention of a driver before they turn while looking in the opposite direction they are going...