Quantcast

This is what's right with The Industry®

Leafy

Monkey
Sep 13, 2019
584
374
But there's got to be a way to leverage 3d printing to (rapidly) make CF molds or something....
That there is at least mark forged can print h13 tool steel that is used for injection molds. It's actuate enough that you probably only need to post machine some critical areas and then handpolish for surface finish.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
21,269
20,507
Canaderp
There was a bad industrial accident with fox castings according to my Fox insider friend (wow, that sounds strange).
Its quite dangerous, but interesting work. We have a foundry at one building around here and there are so many restrictions with what types of metals that you can bring into the building. Like no pop cans allowed. Things go boom.
 
Feb 21, 2020
880
1,232
SoCo Western Slope
There was a bad industrial accident with fox castings according to my Fox insider friend (wow, that sounds strange).
Yep, the entire place almost went up. They were not making lowers there, but were cleaning out the magnesium lowers prior to installing the bushings.

A container of magnesium chips caught fire. If you have ever seen a little sliver of Mag light up, imagine a barrel full of it! :eek:

Practices were changed after that......
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,570
5,347
Ottawa, Canada
Sweet. They were similar when my Scout cracked - I emailed them and had a new front triangle on the way the same day, no questions pretty much.


Maybe next year you can crack it again and get that new frame. :busted:
I hope not! If anything, I'd like to get at least two more years out of this one for me, and then pass it down to my son. It'll be a few more years before he's heavy enough to put proper stress on the frame. If I could get 10 years out of the frame, that would be amazing!

(And maybe in two years time, there will be a lot of Covid bikes on the used market. As long as the industry doesn't fvck around with 'standards' too much in the ensuing time, I could be in luck)
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
55,074
20,966
Sleazattle
Yep, the entire place almost went up. They were not making lowers there, but were cleaning out the magnesium lowers prior to installing the bushings.

A container of magnesium chips caught fire. If you have ever seen a little sliver of Mag light up, imagine a barrel full of it! :eek:

Practices were changed after that......

I had a customer who had a fire in a large CNC machine while milling some magnesium parts. The molten magnesium reacted with the water in the coolant which released hydrogen that then exploded. Thankfully no one died but that machine was totalled.
 

velocipedist

Lubrication Sensei
Jul 11, 2006
560
702
Rainbow City Alabama
Given
is 3d printing rockets, the tech is there for exotic metals and metal matrix composites.

I think it is a matter of time before viable 3d metal sintering becomes available.

We are likely decades away, maybe when automotive begins to experiment tech will trickle down or in my pipe dream maker foundries begin popping up furthering access.

One can dream.

its already being done, but you can only get a couple cycles out of a 3d printed mold tops. good for prototyping, not for production.
 

Happymtb.fr

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2016
1,982
1,342
SWE

I am looking forward to the rest of the serie
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,566
912
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
No. I'm not sure what the problem was, but I couldn't get more than a few months out of them on my back wheel. They kept denting and flat spotting. I replaced them with a Spank Spike Race 33 and haven't had an issue since I put them on a year ago.
How is it not obvious that the problem is too little tire pressure/not enough tire casing/hitting things too hard? I'm of the opinion that rims aren't meant to hit the ground. They are intended to be insulated by tires. If your rim is damaged from hitting the ground the problem isn't a weak rim, it's that you let it hit the ground.

Am I "Old School" and giving too much leeway to rim manufacturers while depriving myself of low pressure traction while hauling extra weight around (DD & DH casings)? Or are you and my customers that complain about rim damage being unrealistic about how the rim/tire system works and trying to get away with pressures/casings that don't match your riding style?

Maybe we'll see a split in rim designs with some manufacturers producing heavier rims intended for impacts while others make lighter rims intended to never touch the ground. Have you seen the new Ibis alloy rims with their very short, very wide sidewalls? I wouldn't ride them but this seems to be the way some people need to go.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,570
5,347
Ottawa, Canada
How is it not obvious that the problem is too little tire pressure/not enough tire casing/hitting things too hard? I'm of the opinion that rims aren't meant to hit the ground. They are intended to be insulated by tires. If your rim is damaged from hitting the ground the problem isn't a weak rim, it's that you let it hit the ground.

Am I "Old School" and giving too much leeway to rim manufacturers while depriving myself of low pressure traction while hauling extra weight around (DD & DH casings)? Or are you and my customers that complain about rim damage being unrealistic about how the rim/tire system works and trying to get away with pressures/casings that don't match your riding style?

Maybe we'll see a split in rim designs with some manufacturers producing heavier rims intended for impacts while others make lighter rims intended to never touch the ground. Have you seen the new Ibis alloy rims with their very short, very wide sidewalls? I wouldn't ride them but this seems to be the way some people need to go.
:confused: why you comin' at me bro?!?

I'm old school too. I'm 45. Been riding since I was 15. I weigh 215 lbs (ok, probably 220 now...), and I run 30 psi in my rear tire, regardless of tire casing... I'm still on 135 hubs (converted to 142) and would still be on 26" wheels if there were bikes with good geo on them that supported them...

But man, I went through three of those rims in 1.5 seasons whereas normally I get 2 seasons out of one (aluminum) rim.

The first rim that died, I was running with a 2.3 DD DHR2. The wheel had been built at my LBS, but not by the owners (that I've known for over 20 years), but by one of their summer students. I noticed spoke tension wasn't even when I left the shop, but I was in a hurry and needed it then - I didn't have time to have them re-build it. I killed that rim on the second ride. Sure, it was on a rough trail, but I ride that trail 4-5 times per year, and hadn't had an issue before.

Second rim I killed, I had built myself. Tension was even, but it wasn't perfectly round. I chalked that one up to user error. Still w DD DHR2 at 30 psi.

Third rim I had built by one the shop owners. It lasted a bit longer. I had transitioned to EXO+ with a Tannus insert. Maybe it was bad luck, maybe it was user error, but regardless, it dented in a rock strike, and wouldn't seal tubeless anymore.

So for me, three strikes - you're out. I had my shop build up a Spank Spike Race 33, and it's still straight, true, and round. Sure, I'm riding a little less aggressively since breaking my back, but I've found riding slow can be just as tough on rims too - if you fall into holes instead of skimming over them.

I'll also say I never complained to my shop. They know me and my riding style. They build and sell catalogue carbon rims under their own brand. I've talked to them about their carbon rims before, and they don't recommend it for me. Everything breaks they said, and it hurts a little more when it's a $400 rim vs $150 (canuckistani pesos).

So, in my experience, those rims are not suited to aggressive trail duty, which is what they are marketed as. Especially coming from a brand known for it's hardtails. I've used plenty of other rims (Stans Flow & Arch, WTB, Spank Oozy to name a few). I simply think those rims are sub-par.
 
Last edited:

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,654
3,101
:confused: why you comin' at me bro?!?

I'm old school too. I'm 45. Been riding since I was 15. I weigh 215 lbs (ok, probably 220 now...), and I run 30 psi in my rear tire, regardless of tire casing... I'm still on 135 hubs (converted to 142) and would still be on 26" wheels if there were bikes with good geo on them that supported them...

But man, I went through three of those rims in 1.5 seasons whereas normally I get 2 seasons out of one (aluminum) rim.

The first rim that died, I was running with a 2.3 DD DHR2. The wheel had been built at my LBS, but not by the owners (that I've known for over 20 years), but by one of their summer students. I noticed spoke tension wasn't even when I left the shop, but I was in a hurry and needed it then - I didn't have time to have them re-build it. I killed that rim on the second ride. Sure, it was on a rough trail, but I ride that trail 4-5 times per year, and hadn't had an issue before.

Second rim I killed, I had built myself. Tension was even, but it wasn't perfectly round. I chalked that one up to user error. Still w DD DHR2 at 30 psi.

Third rim I had built by one the shop owners. It lasted a bit longer. I had transitioned to EXO+ with a Tannus insert. Maybe it was bad luck, maybe it was user error, but regardless, it dented in a rock strike, and wouldn't seal tubeless anymore.

So for me, three strikes - you're out. I had my shop build up a Spank Spike Race 33, and it's still straight, true, and round. Sure, I'm riding a little less aggressively since breaking my back, but I've found riding slow can be just as tough on rims too - if you fall into holes instead of skimming over them.

I'll also say I never complained to my shop. They know me and my riding style. They build and sell catalogue carbon rims under their own brand. I've talked to them about their carbon rims before, and they don't recommend it for me. Everything breaks they said, and it hurts a little more when it's a $400 rim vs $150 (canuckistani pesos).

So, in my experience, those rims are not suited to aggressive trail duty, which is what they are marketed as. Especially coming from a brand known for it's hardtails. I've used plenty of other rims (Stans Flow & Arch, WTB, Spank Oozy to name a few). I simply think those rims are sub-par.
Aren't you mixing two things here? Stability of the rim vs. stability of the wheel. Sure, a stronger, heavier rim usually ensures a more durable wheel (as in no taco'ing), but here the build quality is key. If you dent and flat spot rims then this is a too soft/brittle rim material combined with too low tire pressure or "oh shit" situations....and of course EAST COAST ROKX! :D
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,570
5,347
Ottawa, Canada
Aren't you mixing two things here? Stability of the rim vs. stability of the wheel. Sure, a stronger, heavier rim usually ensures a more durable wheel (as in no taco'ing), but here the build quality is key. If you dent and flat spot rims then this is a too soft/brittle rim material combined with too low tire pressure or "oh shit" situations....and of course EAST COAST ROKX! :D
Eh, maybe, but I had both issues. And after the third time, I decided to go back to a known commodity. Haven't had issues since. Coincidence?
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,596
1,087
La Verne
How is it not obvious that the problem is too little tire pressure/not enough tire casing/hitting things too hard? I'm of the opinion that rims aren't meant to hit the ground. They are intended to be insulated by tires. If your rim is damaged from hitting the ground the problem isn't a weak rim, it's that you let it hit the ground.

Am I "Old School" and giving too much leeway to rim manufacturers while depriving myself of low pressure traction while hauling extra weight around (DD & DH casings)? Or are you and my customers that complain about rim damage being unrealistic about how the rim/tire system works and trying to get away with pressures/casings that don't match your riding style?

Maybe we'll see a split in rim designs with some manufacturers producing heavier rims intended for impacts while others make lighter rims intended to never touch the ground. Have you seen the new Ibis alloy rims with their very short, very wide sidewalls? I wouldn't ride them but this seems to be the way some people need to go.
The ibis twin wall at the bead seems silly...
I like the carbon versions of wide beads better...
But thinking about it reminds me of the enve m9 setup im not an enve fan but a rim strip that pads and fattens the bead sure sounds like a win win win to me. Protect the rim from rocks, protect the tire from rim and act as the tubless liner. Not sure why we haven't seen it applied to aluminum rims.
 
Last edited:

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,654
3,101
I mentioned it already a couple of times and still think the wide rims are the issue. Most good cornering tires have a channel between the outer knobs of the running thread and the cornering knobs. With narrow rims, the rim bead is protected by the outer row of knobs from the running thread, when the rim becomes wider the bead moves directly under the channel. That way the tire will offer less protection for the rim.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
The ibis twin wall at the bead seems silly...
I like the carbon versions of wide beads better...
But thinking about it reminds me of the enve m9 setup im not an enve fan but a rim strip that pads and fattens the bead sure sounds like a win win win to me. Protect the rim from rocks, protect the tire from rim and act as the tubless liner. Not sure why we haven't seen it applied to aluminum rims.
Trek includes a Bontrager rim liner like the ones the old Enves of yore used to sport. It's not as thick as the Enve one, but it certainly is easier (and not as messy) to set up tubeless than the gorilla/kapton/3M tape and valve combo.

I've heard of several shops in the US getting rid of them because their customers are more used to the classic Stan's tape/valve/sealant combo and giving them for free to other customers.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,449
10,081
AK
I mentioned it already a couple of times and still think the wide rims are the issue. Most good cornering tires have a channel between the outer knobs of the running thread and the cornering knobs. With narrow rims, the rim bead is protected by the outer row of knobs from the running thread, when the rim becomes wider the bead moves directly under the channel. That way the tire will offer less protection for the rim.
Yeah, the worst-denting rims back in the day (early days of DH) were the super wide thin ones. They could be heavy as hell, but there's no sidewall (rim sidewall that is) support out on that flange so it it's something and bends like butter.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,596
1,087
La Verne
Trek includes a Bontrager rim liner like the ones the old Enves of yore used to sport. It's not as thick as the Enve one, but it certainly is easier (and not as messy) to set up tubeless than the gorilla/kapton/3M tape and valve combo.

I've heard of several shops in the US getting rid of them because their customers are more used to the classic Stan's tape/valve/sealant combo and giving them for free to other customers.
images (2).jpeg
The bontrager goes between the beads just replaces tape

enve-rim-275-m930-32-holes_2.jpg
The enve covers the beads....
Whole other level
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,566
912
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
:confused: why you comin' at me bro?!?

I'm old school too. I'm 45. Been riding since I was 15. I weigh 215 lbs (ok, probably 220 now...), and I run 30 psi in my rear tire, regardless of tire casing... I'm still on 135 hubs (converted to 142) and would still be on 26" wheels if there were bikes with good geo on them that supported them...

But man, I went through three of those rims in 1.5 seasons whereas normally I get 2 seasons out of one (aluminum) rim.

The first rim that died, I was running with a 2.3 DD DHR2. The wheel had been built at my LBS, but not by the owners (that I've known for over 20 years), but by one of their summer students. I noticed spoke tension wasn't even when I left the shop, but I was in a hurry and needed it then - I didn't have time to have them re-build it. I killed that rim on the second ride. Sure, it was on a rough trail, but I ride that trail 4-5 times per year, and hadn't had an issue before.

Second rim I killed, I had built myself. Tension was even, but it wasn't perfectly round. I chalked that one up to user error. Still w DD DHR2 at 30 psi.

Third rim I had built by one the shop owners. It lasted a bit longer. I had transitioned to EXO+ with a Tannus insert. Maybe it was bad luck, maybe it was user error, but regardless, it dented in a rock strike, and wouldn't seal tubeless anymore.

So for me, three strikes - you're out. I had my shop build up a Spank Spike Race 33, and it's still straight, true, and round. Sure, I'm riding a little less aggressively since breaking my back, but I've found riding slow can be just as tough on rims too - if you fall into holes instead of skimming over them.

I'll also say I never complained to my shop. They know me and my riding style. They build and sell catalogue carbon rims under their own brand. I've talked to them about their carbon rims before, and they don't recommend it for me. Everything breaks they said, and it hurts a little more when it's a $400 rim vs $150 (canuckistani pesos).

So, in my experience, those rims are not suited to aggressive trail duty, which is what they are marketed as. Especially coming from a brand known for it's hardtails. I've used plenty of other rims (Stans Flow & Arch, WTB, Spank Oozy to name a few). I simply think those rims are sub-par.
Not giving you a hard time. Just commenting on the current state of rim/tire damage I'm seeing around the shop. It does sound like you had bad experiences with one rim and good with another while keeping other variables the same. My only advice is to go with a wider rear tire. 2.3" Maxxis are tiny. I even find the 2.4" DHR to be lacking in width. BuckoW has 2.5" DHRs that flow down from the factory racers and that's what I want on the back of a DH or Enduro bike. I think the Vittoria Martello 2.6" could be the working man's version of that unobtanium tire.
 
Last edited:

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,570
5,347
Ottawa, Canada
Not giving you a hard time. Just commenting on the current state of rim/tire damage I'm seeing around the shop. It does sound like you had bad experiences with one rim and good with another while keeping other variables the same. My only advice is to go with a wider rear tire. 2.3" Maxxis are tiny. I even find the 2.4" DHR to be lacking in width. BuckoW has 2.5" DHRs that flow down from the factory racers and that's what I want on the back of a DH or Enduro bike. I think the Vittoria Martello 2.6" could be the working man's version of that unobtanium tire.
Would be nice to give it a try, but 2.5 don't fit in my stays. Well, they might in theory - if there's no mud or any dirt on the trails - but in practice it's a no-go.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,746
478
Given
is 3d printing rockets, the tech is there for exotic metals and metal matrix composites.

I think it is a matter of time before viable 3d metal sintering becomes available.

We are likely decades away, maybe when automotive begins to experiment tech will trickle down or in my pipe dream maker foundries begin popping up furthering access.

One can dream.
Both of those exist in a far more technologically mature form than you are forecasting.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
7,049
6,147
They would be less likely to snap off as they have more support from the pedal body and are thicker where the load hits them, if they do break you probably won't get damaged thread like you do when you wind out a munted SHCS.

But, they can be a pain to get out when they are damaged.
Doubt I could bring myself to pay whatever they cost.
 

mykel

closer to Periwinkle
Apr 19, 2013
5,242
3,990
sw ontario canada
Awesome seeing point of origin listed on all the parts but isn't that pedal expensive as hell? In Australia that's a $400 set of pedals.
$210.00 US


For reference on quick search Deity T-Macs are $180.00 US and RF Atlas are 180.00 and the US made Tenet Omen are 185.00.

Most expensive quick off the top of my head would be Crank Brothers Stamp 11 Ti at 300.00 US$.
 

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
16,948
13,482
Cackalacka du Nord
$210.00 US


For reference on quick search Deity T-Macs are $180.00 US and RF Atlas are 180.00 and the US made Tenet Omen are 185.00.

Most expensive quick off the top of my head would be Crank Brothers Stamp 11 Ti at 300.00 US$.
dudes. get on it! https://www.rei.com/product/100427/race-face-atlas-platform-pedals?CAWELAID=120217890002282096&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=108109049674&CATCI=aud-1396942684275:pla-934015977119&cm_mmc=PLA_Google|21700000001700551_1004270002|92700056322818364|NB|71700000062146846&gclid=CjwKCAjwt7SWBhAnEiwAx8ZLahdl5GPOgj4Tbx_fyOOhFnrv9k7RH2TkdVXhol06K0QvjvqPhj-eNBoCcSUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

fwiw i got mine when i spotted them at $129US
 

Leafy

Monkey
Sep 13, 2019
584
374
These prices for flat pedals make XTR clips look like a steal.
Cost difference makes sense to me. Way more assembly time putting all those little screws in and it starts from a much bigger piece of aluminum.
I'll stick with plastic flats, they're the same color all the way through.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,570
5,347
Ottawa, Canada
OK, so I get the attraction of flat pedals, but each time I tried to run them on a DH bike (three separate times), I never got more than a couple of months out of them. I'd smash the platform on rocks and just destroy them. So not a question of maintenance or anything, but flat out destruction. How do you guys make them survive so long?!?!
 

Leafy

Monkey
Sep 13, 2019
584
374
OK, so I get the attraction of flat pedals, but each time I tried to run them on a DH bike (three separate times), I never got more than a couple of months out of them. I'd smash the platform on rocks and just destroy them. So not a question of maintenance or anything, but flat out destruction. How do you guys make them survive so long?!?!
140mm cranks.:jester: