[kidwoo]

what i won't ever do is build shore type features on federal land...that didn't end so well for some folks out here a while back...

Yeah it did. One of them moved out to warshington and built a bunch of sketchy scary trails that I've had a lot of fun on.


I'm curious what you do individually to 'build' trails. What I'm talking about is 1-5 people working every single day, sometimes across 3 years to build a few miles. When that gets shut down or just destroyed by hacks who can't keep their mouth shut......you're damn right people get pissed. That's an investment wasted, pissed on by people who lever lifted a finger.


I will say this: It's just different on the west coast. People are nicer in the southeast. (fuck new england ) And there are thousands fewer of them bro brah-ing out on bicycles because it's the cool thing to do. People are just entitled assholes in CA (and starting to be that way in the PNW, especially in the vancouver to whistler corridor). And the incoming stream is literally endless.

 

[jstuhlman]

Yeah it did. One of them moved out to warshington and built a bunch of sketchy scary trails that I've had a lot of fun on.


I'm curious what you do individually to 'build' trails. What I'm talking about is 1-5 people working every single day, sometimes across 3 years to build a few miles. When that gets shut down or just destroyed by hacks who can't keep their mouth shut......you're damn right people get pissed. That's an investment wasted, pissed on by people who lever lifted a finger.


I will say this: It's just different on the west coast. People are nicer in the southeast. (fuck new england ) And there are thousands fewer of them bro brah-ing out on bicycles because it's the cool thing to do. People are just entitled assholes in CA (and starting to be that way in the PNW, especially in the vancouver to whistler corridor). And the incoming stream is literally endless.

admittedly, nothing like that...different coasts, different strokes. if i lived closer to the part of pisgah i like to ride i'd for damn sure cut some remote "natural" trails of my own tho...

 

[Westy]

Yeah it did. One of them moved out to warshington and built a bunch of sketchy scary trails that I've had a lot of fun on.


I'm curious what you do individually to 'build' trails. What I'm talking about is 1-5 people working every single day, sometimes across 3 years to build a few miles. When that gets shut down or just destroyed by hacks who can't keep their mouth shut......you're damn right people get pissed. That's an investment wasted, pissed on by people who lever lifted a finger.


I will say this: It's just different on the west coast. People are nicer in the southeast. (fuck new england ) And there are thousands fewer of them bro brah-ing out on bicycles because it's the cool thing to do. People are just entitled assholes in CA (and starting to be that way in the PNW, especially in the vancouver to whistler corridor). And the incoming stream is literally endless.

I think there is also a big difference between the coasts in regards to acceptable risks, at least between WA and VA. People were so terrified of getting sued in VA, even private trail owners would neuter their own trails and liability waivers were required for everything. Washington law waives liability for pretty much all recreational activities.

So we get unauthorized trails on corporate and public land that can stick around for awhile.

We also have several hundred people a year that disappear or die in the mountains with little note, at least until a white woman dies/disappears.

 

[kidwoo]

I think there is also a big difference between the coasts in regards to acceptable risks, at least between WA and VA. People were so terrified of getting sued in VA, even private trail owners would neuter their own trails and liability waivers were required for everything. Washington law waives liability for pretty much all recreational activities.

So we get unauthorized trails on corporate and public land that can stick around for awhile.

We also have several hundred people a year that disappear or die in the mountains with little note, at least until a white woman dies/disappears.

All I ever heard about on the east coast growing up was "california lawyers gonna sue over this or that"

California has the same law as WA regarding recreation on private land (here and in WA that's sierra pacific industries usually). It ain't california fucking up VA or NC. It's the distinct lack of public land making everyone think every inch of it needs to be 'managed' and controlled. Private land owners have the same wierd mentality. Scared shitless of phantoms.

Regardless, you know it's different out here. People finding out about a trail that a land owner/manager doesn't want to deal with is just different. Thank god in washington DNR can't even agree with their counterparts two miles away over what to do about bike trails.

 

[Westy]

All I ever heard about on the east coast growing up was "california lawyers gonna sue over this or that"

California has the same law as WA regarding recreation on private land (here and in WA that's sierra pacific industries usually). It ain't california fucking up VA or NC. It's the distinct lack of public land making everyone think every inch of it needs to be 'managed' and controlled. Private land owners have the same wierd mentality. Scared shitless of phantoms.

Regardless, you know it's different out here. People finding out about a trail that a land owner/manager doesn't want to deal with is just different. Thank god in washington DNR can't even agree with their counterparts two miles away over what to do about bike trails.

I am glad I grew up when I did. Had 1000 acre of woods behind my house owned by some old dude. I dug, I rode, I blew shit up. No one cared. I did cross the land owner once, armed with a shot gun he asked what I was doing. Just riding my bike. He made sure I wasn't doing the weed or devil worshipping and said I could ride there anytime.

That was people's biggest worries then. Weed and devil worshipping. Satanic cults were the ANTIFA of the '80s.

 

[toodles]

I think there is also a big difference between the coasts in regards to acceptable risks, at least between WA and VA. People were so terrified of getting sued in VA, even private trail owners would neuter their own trails and liability waivers were required for everything. Washington law waives liability for pretty much all recreational activities.

Just heard today that one of the best trail networks (unauthorised but accepted) in South East Queensland is in the process of being shut down. Bulldozers out there started yesterday to close the trails, apparently the land manager got sued by some twatmuffin who fell off a wet wooden bridge.

Getting real tired of the douchebags that are coming in through the "grow the sport/revenue pool" mentality.

 

[kidwoo]

Getting real tired of the douchebags that are coming in through the "grow the sport/revenue pool" mentality.

Good.

Because the only assholes who ever said that had jobs that depended on bike market sales.

I really wish ebikes didn't exist. Because the indisputable fact that pedaling uphill for 2 hours just kind of sucks was a really nice barrier to entry. Now it's all fucked.

 

[Jm_]

Good.

Because the only assholes who ever said that had jobs that depended on bike market sales.

I really wish ebikes didn't exist. Because the indisputable fact that pedaling uphill for 2 hours just kind of sucks was a really nice barrier to entry. Now it's all fucked.

Wait until you find out that jumps and features will no longer be designed assuming gravity transfers into forward motion...

 

[jonKranked]

2. You've obviously never had trails lost because of exposure

I am glad I grew up when I did. Had 1000 acre of woods behind my house owned by some old dude. I dug, I rode, I blew shit up. No one cared. I did cross the land owner once, armed with a shot gun he asked what I was doing. Just riding my bike. He made sure I wasn't doing the weed or devil worshipping and said I could ride there anytime.

That was people's biggest worries then. Weed and devil worshipping. Satanic cults were the ANTIFA of the '80s.

man, he would hate Sleep

 

[jonKranked]

I really wish ebikes didn't exist. Because the indisputable fact that pedaling uphill for 2 hours just kind of sucks was a really nice barrier to entry. Now it's all fucked.

the ultimate squirrel catcher.

 

[marshalolson]

red

I really wish ebikes didn't exist. Because the indisputable fact that pedaling uphill for 2 hours just kind of sucks was a really nice barrier to entry. Now it's all fucked.

this.

around here it’s the same thing. What was brutal, steep, hard climbs leading to amazing natural trails that 20 people a year rode, now is totally blown out moondust, eroding super fast, and endangered to get shut down from repeated injuries to joeys riding above their head, because 100 people a day are riding it on ebikes.

 

[chuffer]

We currently still have land management that turns a blind eye to our trails, but I wonder how much longer that is going to last. The number of people using our trails has gotta be up by a factor of 10 over the last year. It used to be I would see a small handful of people in a week and I knew everyone of them. Now there are occasionally out-of-state plates at the trailhead.

Fuck anyone who bleets, "Gotta grow the sport, bruh!"

 

[Lelandjt]

Why is the term "tribe" now only applicable to native americans?

That's what I thought. This feels like pandering to a small, vocal group of wealthy liberal white people suffering so intensely from white guilt that they have forgotten what the word "tribe" means or maybe never knew the history of humanity. I am also a liberal, white, and by some measures wealthy person but am way too intelligent and educated to see this as anything besides silly marketing and cowing to a petition with 1000!!! signatures. Still, in this era it's effective marketing* so "you go Yeti!"

*I'm gonna go show my support for "indigenous peoples**" by dropping $$$$ on a teal trail slayer.

**WTF does that even mean? Indigenous as of what time? Everyone came from the Rift Valley and moved elsewhere. Is my friend indigenous to Breckenridge because his mom moved here 15 years before me and birthed him here 5 years after I arrived***?

***People who genuinely argue about this stuff need a better hobby.

 

[Jm_]

That's what I thought. This feels like pandering to a small, vocal group of wealthy liberal white people suffering so intensely from white guilt that they have forgotten what the word "tribe" means or maybe never knew the history of humanity. I am also a liberal, white, and by some measures wealthy person but am way too intelligent and educated to see this as anything besides silly marketing and cowing to a petition with 1000!!! signatures. Still, in this era it's effective marketing* so "you go Yeti!"

*I'm gonna go show my support for "indigenous peoples**" by dropping $$$$ on a teal trail slayer.

**WTF does that even mean? Indigenous as of what time? Everyone came from the Rift Valley and moved elsewhere. Is my friend indigenous to Breckenridge because his mom moved here 15 years before me and birthed him here 5 years after I arrived***?

***People who genuinely argue about this stuff need a better hobby.

That is similar to my point about all the "Well I was born here, so I can live here, but you need to find some other place to live!"-people: Because if you trace back, at some point, those people, or their ancestors, DID move there, and if was alright for THEIR family line to do that, you better believe it's ok for MY family line to do the same thing. Unless we are actually talking about the rift valley, their family line moved there at some point...and of course it was "ok" for them.

 

[maxyedor]

RE Barelli and trail poaching, sounds like much adieu about nothing really. It's PB, so take it with a couple grains of salt, https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-yoann-barelli-guinea-pigs-a-30-foot-step-down-on-his-trail-bikke.html

Sounds like the guy who originally cut the trail to the drop never rode it because he got hurt and decided he didn't want to hit it. If the guy who built it doesn't want to ride it anyway, do you then have to let nature reclaim it, then re-cut the trail before you can hit it? Blowing up the spot on social media is wrong, but riding it, who cares?

Getting real tired of the douchebags that are coming in through the "grow the sport/revenue pool" mentality.

I think I've said the same thing like 87 times but...

I absolutely can't stand the "grow the sport" mentality, it's industry driven, but get's parroted by everybody and their brother, then they get mad when you ask why? Seriously, why do we give a shit if the sport gets bigger? It's been big, and the pros got paid shit, it's been small and the pros got paid shit, it's big again and the pros are being paid shit. Growth has never seemed to speed up innovation, and lack of growth doesn't really seem to slow it down. More people on bikes just means more people are on bikes, but shop wrenches are still getting paid shit, Asian kids are still making $4/year to lay up carbon frames, and the same few hard core riders are out throwing dirt to make trails, trails that will likely be shut down due to overuse or conflict with other user groups, but I guess a tiny number of people at the top make some extra money, and a couple shop owners get Sprinters and Airstreams, so that's cool.

That makes 88.

 

[jonKranked]

I think I've said the same thing like 87 times but...

I absolutely can't stand the "grow the sport" mentality, it's industry driven, but get's parroted by everybody and their brother, then they get mad when you ask why? Seriously, why do we give a shit if the sport gets bigger? It's been big, and the pros got paid shit, it's been small and the pros got paid shit, it's big again and the pros are being paid shit. Growth has never seemed to speed up innovation, and lack of growth doesn't really seem to slow it down. More people on bikes just means more people are on bikes, but shop wrenches are still getting paid shit, Asian kids are still making $4/year to lay up carbon frames, and the same few hard core riders are out throwing dirt to make trails, trails that will likely be shut down due to overuse or conflict with other user groups, but I guess a tiny number of people at the top make some extra money, and a couple shop owners get Sprinters and Airstreams, so that's cool.

That makes 88.

the real problem (which i too have stated before) is that when the industry says "grow the sport" all they mean is "growing sales". not growing access to more trails, or increasing trail mileage.

 

[Westy]

the real problem (which i too have stated before) is that when the industry says "grow the sport" all they mean is "growing sales". not growing access to more trails, or increasing trail mileage.

Well it is ggrowing trail mileage but it seems to direct that more towards heavy machine built bike park like trails.

 

[jonKranked]

Well it is ggrowing trail mileage but it seems to direct that more towards heavy machine built bike park like trails.

not around here.

 

[canadmos]

Well it is ggrowing trail mileage but it seems to direct that more towards heavy machine built bike park like trails.

BERM this BERM that and BERM that too.

 

[jonKranked]

BERM this BERM that and BERM that too.

you know what that berm needs? ANOTHER BERM

 

[canadmos]

Its funny how excited some of us in our ride group get when we stumble across a section off camber trail or a big nasty pile of roots....

 

[canadmos]

you know what that berm needs? ANOTHER BERM

UPHILL BERMS!!!!!!!

 

[jonKranked]

UPHILL BERMS!!!!!!!

uphill jumps!

seriously though, a few weeks back we had a lot of downed trees. someone built a dirt up and over a big log, but really more of a jump for the descent. someone complained the backside needed to be bigger so he could climb it on the ascent.

 

[slimshady]

A friend (member of my biking crew) sent me this video last week, as an example of well utilized resources:

Twelve million dollars thrown basically at removing every single natural feature from a trail, sanitizing it to the point it looks like you could ride it down on a skateboard...

 

[Jm_]

Well it is ggrowing trail mileage but it seems to direct that more towards heavy machine built bike park like trails.

To play the devil's advocate, many trails have been adopted by mtb, improved and worked on, but actual hand-building mtb trails is extremely labor and time intensive and I'd suggest that this is a rarity, not only in current times, but even before, as most mtb trails were adopted or re-purposed from existing trails/paths of some sort.

 

[Jm_]

uphill jumps!

Hit them on my e-bike.

 

[jstuhlman]

To play the devil's advocate, many trails have been adopted by mtb, improved and worked on, but actual hand-building mtb trails is extremely labor and time intensive and I'd suggest that this is a rarity, not only in current times, but even before, as most mtb trails were adopted or re-purposed from existing trails/paths of some sort.

that's why i like working at the local trail that I do - it's one of the very few around here that's 100% hand cut. and it shows. not that you can't make a good trail using machinery properly, but it's much rarer and for the most part creates a trail with a rather different feel.

 

[HAB]

Hit them on my e-bike.

The climb up one of my local riding spots starts by going around a gate at the bottom of a forest service road. There's a path around it, and you can climb it if you get a solid head of steam going, but it's sloped steeply uphill and has a couple big exposed roots in it, so it takes some momentum. A buddy of mine, who I barely ride with anymore because he's turned into an e-bike dork, went for it on his moped, dramatically underestimated the amount of assist he was getting, and basically launched himself off the trail and into the bushes behind the gate. I just about gave myself a hernia from laughing.

 

[Lelandjt]

Supposedly it works better than this
View attachment 147449

My understanding was they had to replace that cuz it infringed on VPP's patent for "counter rotating links". Replacing it with little Kashima stantions was just brilliant marketing.

 

[canadmos]

Christini Releases Range of AWD eMTBs - Pinkbike

Two-wheel drive e-bikes are now a thing.

www.pinkbike.com

No arch on the fork..
Brakes lines routed on the outside of the frame...

 

[Lelandjt]

I had one of those, actually worked well. I sold it after a year so no clue on how they were from a maintenance standpoint.

The blue part spun on a set of tiny balls that weren't sealed well. I never opened one up that wasn't so rusty and contaminated that it was hard to differentiate the balls from the debris.

 

[slimshady]

My understanding was they had to replace that cuz it infringed on VPP's patent for "counter rotating links". Replacing it with little Kashima stantions was just brilliant marketing.

Nah, the VPP patent was already gone by the time they launched the Switch. They retired it because of the lack of any proper sealing and the harshness/binding it experienced when the link started rotating the opposite way.

The fuckers even acknowledged it on the Switch Infinity introductory piece at PB. They WROTE how they knew the previous version was sub par, yet they sold those models for what, 3-4 years?

And their tribe still praise those dentomobiles...

 

[Banga]

A friend (member of my biking crew) sent me this video last week, as an example of well utilized resources:

Twelve million dollars thrown basically at removing every single natural feature from a trail, sanitizing it to the point it looks like you could ride it down on a skateboard...

It‘s a duel use (walking and riding) trail in a national park- can’t exactly be gnarcore now can it champ?

The trail is also located in an area that gets 7+ metres of annual rainfall which impacts how the trail has to build to be sustainable.

 

[slimshady]

It‘s a duel use (walking and riding) trail in a national park- can’t exactly be gnarcore now can it champ

I stand corrected then. Thanks for stopping me from going full retard.

 

[Nick]

The trail is also located in an area that gets 7+ metres of annual rainfall which impacts how the trail has to build to be sustainable.

 

[jstuhlman]

armor it nao.

 

[boostindoubles]

This was the beginning of my bike lust... dammit BMX Plus! and here we are 24 years later, I still want new shiny things. (I've moved on from Spin wheels but still want this thing...)

 

[iRider]

It‘s a duel use (walking and riding) trail in a national park- can’t exactly be gnarcore now can it champ?

The trail is also located in an area that gets 7+ metres of annual rainfall which impacts how the trail has to build to be sustainable.

Maybe there are places where no trails should be?
Watching the video it seems to be a giant waste of money with a serious environmental impact for how many potential trail users?

 

[kidwoo]

Blowing up the spot on social media is wrong, but riding it, who cares?

This

I absolutely can't stand the "grow the sport" mentality, it's industry driven, but get's parroted by everybody and their brother, then they get mad when you ask why? Seriously, why do we give a shit if the sport gets bigger? It's been big, and the pros got paid shit, it's been small and the pros got paid shit, it's big again and the pros are being paid shit. Growth has never seemed to speed up innovation, and lack of growth doesn't really seem to slow it down. More people on bikes just means more people are on bikes, but shop wrenches are still getting paid shit, Asian kids are still making $4/year to lay up carbon frames, and the same few hard core riders are out throwing dirt to make trails, trails that will likely be shut down due to overuse or conflict with other user groups, but I guess a tiny number of people at the top make some extra money, and a couple shop owners get Sprinters and Airstreams, so that's cool.

That makes 88.

and that

 

[Jm_]

But I think there's a fair point, over-repeated by people like Hambini, that we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in this industry as far as design. Engineers worth their shit either don't stay long, or actually go to good-paying jobs and security. But when we grow the sport with the e-bikes and all that crap, well, that's where the engineers spend their time and effort, so we still end up screwed.