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This is what's wrong with The Industry™

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
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Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
My Spark RC SL is starting its 5th summer and getting raced tonight. I absolutely love it and still think it's the best XC race bike available. This new one is trying to be a race bike and trail bike, depending on the fork. I was considering it as my new trail bike for next year but now that I see it I'll get a Ripley or just be content putting my trail wheels on my Ransom.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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My Spark RC SL is starting its 5th summer and getting raced tonight. I absolutely love it and still think it's the best XC race bike available. This new one is trying to be a race bike and trail bike, depending on the fork. I was considering it as my new trail bike for next year but now that I see it I'll get a Ripley or just be content putting my trail wheels on my Ransom.
They've always been race / trail bikes depending on the build.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
826
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
How's this for what's wrong? In 5 years the industry hasn't come up with a better XC bike. Sure, everyone has pretty much caught up with the Spark RC, but Scott went 5 years pumping frames out of the same molds without making the small changes to geo that I see as the only improvements it needed. I feel road bikes have stagnated as well for the same amount of time. There, disc brakes and "integration" are the only "improvements" over my 2016 Fuji Transonic SL. Hopefully the MTB public doesn't clamor for integration for looks at the cost of functionality and weight. What I see as the problems with current road bikes were specifically asked for by the majority of road bike buyers.
 

jezso

Chimp
Dec 31, 2010
81
68
Dubai, UAE
Regarding the Scott Spark, I fail to see what customer issues and challanges this new design solves. I can imagine it to be a great XC bike, and I have to admit it looks beautiful. Still I'm only missing the point of the frame concept. I also fail to see why we need every year huge change in anything to evolve? I also don't beleive in any marketing but thats my shortcoming. There, tru internet comment 0 facts but bazillion opinions, I have to get a reward or sumting. :D
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,950
9,628
AK
Proprietary bullshit that ensures it doesn't last more than a couple seasons.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,497
4,743
Australia
XC racing is still bloody popular. Some of the biggest events these days are marathons and XC stage races. I think the new Spark makes a lot of sense for those people even if - funnily enough - the RM Downhill forum thinks its a weird piece of crap.

On a quick whats wrong with the industry - we can adjust bar height with 1mm spacers these days but for some reason nearly every goddamn stem manufacturer thinks 35, 40, 50, 60mm are the stem increments required. It is nitpicking I know, but would it kill them to make something different to every other brand?

*yeah Burgtec does 42.5mm and PNW does 45mm.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,950
9,628
AK
Regarding the Scott Spark, I fail to see what customer issues and challanges this new design solves. I can imagine it to be a great XC bike, and I have to admit it looks beautiful. Still I'm only missing the point of the frame concept. I also fail to see why we need every year huge change in anything to evolve? I also don't beleive in any marketing but thats my shortcoming. There, tru internet comment 0 facts but bazillion opinions, I have to get a reward or sumting. :D
Yeah, massive changes for marginal gains, in other words gains that do not offset the cost of r&d and economy of scale for the current models.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
Scott buying Bold on the cheap after they went bankrupt was a logic move IMHO. They have the same integration ideas Cannondale pushed so strongly a while ago (both had Peter Denk's design studio consultancy back in the day), and also Specialized and Trek are doing in their own ways. Paired with the Syncros patents they hold on the stem/handlebar one piece thingy they deliver a much more cohesive view when compared to the fork stanchion Trek puts underneath the top tube.
 

Katz

Monkey
Jun 8, 2012
371
788
Arizona
..On a quick whats wrong with the industry - we can adjust bar height with 1mm spacers these days but for some reason nearly every goddamn stem manufacturer thinks 35, 40, 50, 60mm are the stem increments required. It is nitpicking I know, but would it kill them to make something different to every other brand?

*yeah Burgtec does 42.5mm and PNW does 45mm.
Available in 33mm, 38mm, 42mm, and 48mm. 6000-series aluminum, but at least it says forged then shotpeen'ed.
https://spank-ind.com/collections/stems/products/spank-split-stem
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
826
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
What do you want to see that doesn't rely on component manufacturers?
The 2017 RC SL is so good there's not much to improve. However, geometry could use some tweaks and slight improvements in stiffness and weight are always welcome. As for brands besides Scott, how about building a frame that matches that 5 year old one's weight. I realize technology hasn't changed massively in that time and as bikes get better improvements get smaller, but NO improvement over 5 years (really 6 since Nino started racing it)? That seems either lazy or the companies are focusing on aspects that I don't think matter (hidden shock, 2 water bottles, in-frame storage).

I still love my bike and just took 6th in a pro XC race on it so file this as a minor complaint.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
826
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
What do you want to see that doesn't rely on component manufacturers?
Since you mention it, component manufacturers are also to blame. Pros and many "expert" riders don't need a cog bigger than 42t. For that matter are "Sport" class riders even using their 50s while on a race course? I'm guessing not. The original XX1 is still the lightest drivetrain by nearly 1/2lb and came out in 2013! All those WC XC racers hauling around 50+t cogs because they're paid to is a joke. Also, because those same racers were so slow to adopt droppers we still don't have lighter integrated droppers on XC bikes. It seems there's some weight and durability improvements to be made there.
 
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rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
23,294
11,464
In the cleavage of the Tetons

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
826
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
watch closely, some of the tracks they are definitely being used. bear in mind they're also running larger chainrings than average riders too.
When Nino has that 38t mounted you know he's not using the 10t. He's doing it to improve chainline and efficiency by staying out of the smallest cogs since he has to run the 50t anyway. If given free reign I bet they'd all be on 11spd XX1.
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
826
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
i think part of that is that there aren't spots in XC tracks that let them get going fast enough to need it regardless of chainring size.
On my XC bike I run a 34t with 29" wheels. I very occassionally use the 10t. Yesterday there were two short sections I did but was far from winding it out. Even with their greater power I'd be surprised if WCers can use a 36x10 on course and I'm sure a 38x10 is useless. Remember back in the day when there were several different tooth options for cassettes? How come if you want to run a modern drivetrain you are forced to buy gearing designed for out of shape people? I just have an aversion to unsprung weight and long derailleur cages so this rubs me the wrong way.
What's right with the industry is last time I checked 11spd XX1 parts were still being produced so it's not the end of the world yet.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,497
4,743
Australia
On my XC bike I run a 34t with 29" wheels. I very occassionally use the 10t. Yesterday there were two short sections I did but was far from winding it out. Even with their greater power I'd be surprised if WCers can use a 36x10 on course and I'm sure a 38x10 is useless. Remember back in the day when there were several different tooth options for cassettes? How come if you want to run a modern drivetrain you are forced to buy gearing designed for out of shape people? I just have an aversion to unsprung weight and long derailleur cages so this rubs me the wrong way.
What's right with the industry is last time I checked 11spd XX1 parts were still being produced so it's not the end of the world yet.
It doesn't fix the long cage (i think), but Shimano 12spd is available as a 10-45 11spd option.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,580
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Seattle
mtb'ers: "we want to run the same wheels on our DH and non-DH bikes again"

industry lizards: "ok, here's an adapter to run your 15mm wheels on your DH fork"

mtb'ers: "no not like that"
To be fair, a small company giving people an option to deal with the bullshit foisted on them by the big players isn't exactly what's wrong with the industry.

But yeah, 15mm is dumb.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,950
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AK
mtb'ers: "we want to run the same wheels on our DH and non-DH bikes again"

industry lizards: "ok, here's an adapter to run your 15mm wheels on your DH fork"

mtb'ers: "no not like that"
To be fair, you could always make 15mm bigger DIY.

1623424008724.png
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,497
4,743
Australia
I remember seeing that in the initial press release, along with a hub that took advantage of the narrower cassette, but I thought it never made it to market.
I don't know about the hub, but I thought the cassette made it into the wild.

Googling it now is giving the weird result of a 10-45 12spd offering, but not an 11spd? I thought there was an 11spd somewhere but maybe this crack cocaine is starting to affect my brain.

10-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40-45
 

Lelandjt

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2008
2,512
826
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
We're all remembering it about right but not everything Shimano promised made it to market. A friend who's a big Shimano sponsored endurance racer was supposed to get that 11spd kit and never did. I haven't seen any of it in the wild.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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We're all remembering it about right but not everything Shimano promised made it to market. A friend who's a big Shimano sponsored endurance racer was supposed to get that 11spd kit and never did. I haven't seen any of it in the wild.
I don't think those new sylence hubs made it to market either.