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This is what's wrong with The Industry™

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
13,777
5,420
AK
United Wheels? Like when did they become a thing? I guess I've been living under a rock!


I suppose I only care because Niner is in my home town and think they really do have some good bikes.

Huffy? All the other brands? No care...
Lets see, what has Niner done since deciding to make an entire line of bikes with only 29" wheels?

Oh yeah, they managed to replicate horst link kinematics with more complicated shit hanging down below their frame.

If there was ever a brand that has backed themselves into a corner...9er.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
72,261
14,316
media blackout
Lets see, what has Niner done since deciding to make an entire line of bikes with only 29" wheels?

Oh yeah, they managed to replicate horst link kinematics with more complicated shit hanging down below their frame.

If there was ever a brand that has backed themselves into a corner...9er.
I call it "the dangler"
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
1,465
385
coloRADo
@Jm_ @SkullCrack

LMAO! Ok, fair play on the Niner suckage.

I always thought their suspension was a like an upside down VPP? I don't know.

I had a first gen WFO. But it was like 5 years old, still in the box. Bought the frame for next to nothing at their garage sale. I gotta say, the thing was waaaaay ahead of it's time. 6" Travel 29er?! That wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar back then. Thing was awesome. Solid pivots that didn't creak or loosen, 150mm rear spacing. Even if it had "outdated" geometry when I bought it, it didn't matter. It was freakin sweet.

Anyways, I sold that cuz @mtg told me to buy the Smash (the next best thing in long travel 29ers, and I did). And now look at the Gnarvana. Long travel 29er.

9ner did it a loooooong time ago. And for that, they still warm hold a soft spot for me. :)
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
13,777
5,420
AK
@Jm_ @SkullCrack

I always thought their suspension was a like an upside down VPP? I don't know.
But why, just because it has two links? With two links you can have a very good bike, or very bad, but just because it has two links doesn't mean it replicates the kinematics of any other bike with two links. In Niner's case, it was a drastically sloping AS curve, the same as you'd get from a traditional/older horst link. What was the point? Avoid specialized patent or just some random "I hope this works"? I'm not saying it worked horribly, and maybe they did help bring acceptance to 29er platforms...but once 29er platforms gained that acceptance, they stopped being relevant.
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
1,465
385
coloRADo
But why, just because it has two links? With two links you can have a very good bike, or very bad, but just because it has two links doesn't mean it replicates the kinematics of any other bike with two links. In Niner's case, it was a drastically sloping AS curve, the same as you'd get from a traditional/older horst link. What was the point? Avoid specialized patent or just some random "I hope this works"? I'm not saying it worked horribly, and maybe they did help bring acceptance to 29er platforms...but once 29er platforms gained that acceptance, they stopped being relevant.
I think the "why" I thought that is because I read it somewhere? I'm probably gullible to boot :)

True on being relevant. I just want to see a local bike company do well.

Oh man, I am the worst at reading suspension graphs. Who's got time for that? If I did, I wouldn't be doing a face palm (rolleyes? :rolleyes:) every time I ride my Ibis Ripmo (V1) when it blows through its travel on smallish hits :D (yes, I've done all the things I can to prevent, don't get me started. Pretty sure it's why there is a V2 Ripmo.)

Like I said, that WFO was awesome. The suspension just worked. No funky feelings, movements, braking or pedaling it just worked. Wish my fancy Ibis was like that! Ha!

To be fair, the Smash was more awesomer (I did put an 11-6 on it :) . And I'm sure the Gnarvana has even moar awesomeness!
 

Carraig042

me 1st
Apr 5, 2011
544
165
East Tennessee
Oh man, I am the worst at reading suspension graphs. Who's got time for that? If I did, I wouldn't be doing a face palm (rolleyes? :rolleyes:) every time I ride my Ibis Ripmo (V1) when it blows through its travel on smallish hits :D (yes, I've done all the things I can to prevent, don't get me started. Pretty sure it's why there is a V2 Ripmo
What about the Cascade link?
 

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
1,465
385
coloRADo
What about the Cascade link?
Yep, been there. Only for V2 or AF model of Ripmo. I have the V1.

I do remember the Ibis enduro team (robin wallner, bex barona) back in the day of their V1 Ripmos running different shock than the fancy X2 I have. Now I'm understanding why.

It's not the end of the world. Just a little heart burn on certain chunks of trail. :)
 

Electric_City

The orangutans are loose!
Apr 14, 2007
1,679
513
I wish Shimano or Sram would concentrate on the more important shit rather than just jamming more gears on a cassette.
When you backpedal or have to adjust your crank/pedal position to start on a hill, I really wish the chain wouldn't drop from first to seventh. That's a shitty way to try and start climbing.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
3,798
2,046
UK
I wish Shimano or Sram would concentrate on the more important shit rather than just jamming more gears on a cassette.
When you backpedal or have to adjust your crank/pedal position to start on a hill, I really wish the chain wouldn't drop from first to seventh. That's a shitty way to try and start climbing.
It's not really a SRAM or Shimano problem or a 12 speed drivetrain problem
The issue is caused by extreme chain angle and the silly little chainring acting like a guide pulley and derailling the (tensioned) chain off the stupidly big lowest sprocket.
Either
Lose weight/build better strength/fitness & increase your useable cadence range and you won't need such a wide gearing range or 12 gears.
Or
STOP pedalling backwards in bottom gear
Or
Buy an Ebike!
The freewheel in the crank spider on mid motor Emtbs COMPLETELY eliminates the issue.
 
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It's not really a SRAM or Shimano problem or a 12 speed drivetrain problem
The issue is caused by extreme chain angle and the silly little chainring acting like a guide pulley and derailling the (tensioned) chain off the stupidly big lowest sprocket.
Either
Lose weight/build better strength/fitness increase your cadence range and you won't quite need such a wide gearing range or 12 gears.
Or
STOP pedalling backwards in bottom gear
Or
Buy an Ebike!
The freewheel in the crank spider on mid motor Emtbs COMPLETELY eliminates the issue.
It's a drive system pushed to the limit of what derailleurs are capable of. A 2 x whatever would be way more reasonable.

And fuck ebikes.
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
7,517
3,291
Ottawa, Canada
It's not really a SRAM or Shimano problem or a 12 speed drivetrain problem
The issue is caused by extreme chain angle and the silly little chainring acting like a guide pulley and derailling the (tensioned) chain off the stupidly big lowest sprocket.
Either
Lose weight/build better strength/fitness & increase your useable cadence range and you won't quite need such a wide gearing range or 12 gears.
Or
STOP pedalling backwards in bottom gear
Or
Buy an Ebike!
The freewheel in the crank spider on mid motor Emtbs COMPLETELY eliminates the issue.
or, get a gear-box bike.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
3,798
2,046
UK
Once I got front derailleurs adjusted up properly, I wouldn't let shops touch them when they were doing maintenance work. Chain drops were not an issue.
How often did you pedal backwards in your big chainring and largest sprocket?
;)
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
3,798
2,046
UK
And I'll bet if you did and your chain derailled to a smaller cassette sprocket you learned not to do it again rather than moan on the internet about SRAM and Shimano.

What's wrong with the industry is mainly the punters
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
14,399
11,765
Canaderp
I've been lucky and not really experienced the chain dropping while back pedaling problem. It only seems to happen if my chain/drivetrain is really gunked up with shit or something.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
I've been lucky and not really experienced the chain dropping while back pedaling problem. It only seems to happen if my chain/drivetrain is really gunked up with shit or something.
There are a few factors that make it way worse on some bikes:
- shorter chainstays
- smaller chainring
- poorer chainline - chainring placed outboard even by a little bit
- large cassette sprockets

I don't have the backpedaling issue ATM but the line between experiencing it or not is thin - I run a non-boost spider on my cranks (-6mm dish). With a boost spider (-3mm dish), the chain starts dropping off the largest 42T sprocket. With a superboost flat spider (recommended by the crank maker), it is an effing nightmare all over the cassette.
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,596
340
Haven't experienced this on 12spd stuff.

Had this happen on some XT 11spd stuff, and Shimano's response at the time was, in short, "we don't support backpedaling on our drivetrains". 1/4 of a crank rotation and the chain would drop 6 gears. Unacceptable.
 
Haven't experienced this on 12spd stuff.

Had this happen on some XT 11spd stuff, and Shimano's response at the time was, in short, "we don't support backpedaling on our drivetrains". 1/4 of a crank rotation and the chain would drop 6 gears. Unacceptable.
It has been and is an occasionally annoying issue on my Intense Tracer with SRAM X01. I'd pretty happily go to 2 x 9 were it available.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
3,798
2,046
UK
I'd pretty happily go to 2 x 9 were it available.
go ahead.
7, 8, 9 & 10 speed cassettes/chains/mechs/shifters, double chainsets, front mechs and front shifters are ALL still available.
and will be for quite some time
 
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Electric_City

The orangutans are loose!
Apr 14, 2007
1,679
513
And I'll bet if you did and your chain derailled to a smaller cassette sprocket you learned not to do it again rather than moan on the internet about SRAM and Shimano.

What's wrong with the industry is mainly the punters
We're talking about pedal bikes Garay
 

ChrisRobin

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
3,240
130
Vancouver
Speaking of drivetrains...

Sure cramming in extra gears seems like a good idea, but between 11 and 12 speed, I don't see a big difference between cog ranges. I think most people use the upper half (as in the half of the cassette that has the low gears) more than the lower half. So what's the point in adding more gears if you're not gonna use them?
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,618
323
MA
I'm digging my 12-42 8 speed drivetrain. No adjusting and no backpedal issues. This in spite of some warping of the cassette since the Microshift Alcolyte is cheap and pinned with plastic spacers between each gear, or maybe my DT Swiss alu freehub body is getting chewed up?? Now, if only someone would make an alu carrier all steel gear 11-42t cassette :drool:

I still don't get the need for moar gears. These aren't road bikes.