This is what's wrong with The Industry™
- Thread starter Electric_City
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i decided to just ride with it until it fell off. even then, it’s in the shade on the bottom of my bike, so no exposure to direct sunlight. didn’t even need the protector anyway really. right?
i decided to just ride with it until it fell off. even then, it’s in the shade on the bottom of my bike, so no exposure to direct sunlight. didn’t even need the protector anyway really. right?
I'm not saying it's standards...Yeah, well....
yeah.
No just the whatever no-name crank that came on this Rocky Mountain; the pedal just literally fell out of one side, along with half the threads. I mean, I blame it on the bike but it could have been user error (after the pedal backed out halfway).
Half the threads are still there, so I'm going to try to thread the pedal in from the back to clean it up. And then get the pedal in there from the front. At least so that I can get through this weekend. Nothing gnarly planned; just beers bike and trails. If its breaks more, meh.
Your dentistry type failure looks....dentistry.Did that just happen riding along or you smacked something?
But really... I even order this crank through a local shop that carries the same bike as mine! Why are the cranks different?! The axle that came on my bike is almost 2 inches longer than the 100mm Sram one that the shop sold me. They better take it back, special order or not.
But it's "standards"
/meme
rant disclaimer
Right now one of my pet industry whinges is the down-speccing of shocks and forks. The development of 'cheaper' versions of things that exist simply to provide a passable alternative and make the high-spec products more appealing. There really isn't much of a cost saving in manufacturing a shock or fork with an alternative or a de-tuned damper. In terms of manufacturers cost, there might only be tens of dollars in difference. But at the retail end of the scale, the consumer is forced to either drop thousands to purchase the bike specced with the top of the line damper/shock, or purchase aftermarket and pay hundreds.
Some companies spec their bikes with the same rear shock from top of the line all the way down, except for a real 'budget' offering. Or like Orbea - offer custom specced or point-of-sale upgrading.
Most of this rant is based on my experience getting a RS Deluxe RT on my new bike btw - how the fuck that shock made it to the end-consumer without passing a dyno on the way is beyond me. While capable of taking up a role of springing the back end of a bike, it is so ridiculously made I don't think it belongs on any bike, let alone one with a RRP of $6500 AUD.
Right now one of my pet industry whinges is the down-speccing of shocks and forks. The development of 'cheaper' versions of things that exist simply to provide a passable alternative and make the high-spec products more appealing. There really isn't much of a cost saving in manufacturing a shock or fork with an alternative or a de-tuned damper. In terms of manufacturers cost, there might only be tens of dollars in difference. But at the retail end of the scale, the consumer is forced to either drop thousands to purchase the bike specced with the top of the line damper/shock, or purchase aftermarket and pay hundreds.
Some companies spec their bikes with the same rear shock from top of the line all the way down, except for a real 'budget' offering. Or like Orbea - offer custom specced or point-of-sale upgrading.
Most of this rant is based on my experience getting a RS Deluxe RT on my new bike btw - how the fuck that shock made it to the end-consumer without passing a dyno on the way is beyond me. While capable of taking up a role of springing the back end of a bike, it is so ridiculously made I don't think it belongs on any bike, let alone one with a RRP of $6500 AUD.
Yes, I've been saying that for years. Fox actually rose above this for their first few years, with their R and RL forks only lacking the adjustments of the more expensive ones, the damper was basically the same with the same high quality pistons, then eventually they succumbed to the OEM market where you could spec a few thousand forks filled with dogshit and make a few bucks. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time though, something that spikes like crazy when you try to pick up any speed has no place on the bike. If you were going to just ride it at parking-lot-speeds where the test seems to indicate that it works, you could just ride fat tires and low PSI and have just as good performance. Usually I've found that no suspension is better than shitty suspension.
I always said that if I owned my own bike company (of course I never would) that I'd spec even the entry level bikes with the "high end" suspension. Why? It's the most expensive part of the bike to upgrade and let's face it, Deore is a 10th of the cost of XTR and shifts flawlessly, brakes adequately and is pretty damn reliable.
But the reality is that you can't. You'll price it out of the "entry level".
The base level XF shock that I spec'd on my "low dough" build was less than 1/3 of the cost of the DVO Topaz. My OE cost. And the mark up on components for complete builds is nil. At least at my level.
Would I like all of my customers to have enough money to upgrade to the DVO? Sure. It works better. Period.
Do I feel bad selling it with the low line XF shock to the more budget strapped? No, not at all. I did all the initial devo and demos and test rides on that shock and it works well. It's just not as refined or controlled as the DVO.
Another factor to keep in mind is each customer's use. Some just aren't going to use the suspension that hard and will be just fine with entry level. They won't wear it out and won't over tax it.
I offered the DVO as an upgrade for a good price and most of my customers took me up on it (leaving me with a bunch of XF laying around, 'nother story about how NOT to run a bike co). For the few that kept the XF, they seem pleasantly surprised with it's performance.
I hear you, but from a bike shop, not a boutique brand standpoint.
Making your own 100, 200 or 500 frames that not a lot of people heard of, do you feel that a "low end" build is necessary? From a retail perspective, most $1500 bikes are for guys who want a dual suspension bike, but think it's for comfort, or women who are getting into riding with their boyfriends.
So a boutique brand bike that cost $1500-2500 really isn't a market. Is it? Otoh, a $2000-2500 shop brand bike by the big 3 with good suspension and mid grade components that the buyer can upgrade at will would be great for shops. Imagine a customer upgrading wheels next year and doing some of the drive train this year?
I'm probably way off, but I think you get my point.
this is one thing that's NOT wrong with the industry. "budget" is no longer synonymous with "bad"
IME, 90% of the time its the guys that can least afford the good suspension that are riding their bikes the hardest.
Agree with the new entry level shifters, brakes, wheels and cranks all being pretty damn good though.
What's the value of n here?
I guess "low end" needs to be qualified. I had a kickstarter special for $2900. That was the Low Dough build. High end model xfusion suspension, DT1900 wheels, 10 sp, no dropper.
Didn't sell any.
All of my complete builds were in the $3200-$5400 range, which started to get pretty nice. DVO, DT1500 or I9 wheels, etc.
But, I think that's gonna be the price range for any "serious" level of bike.
So, if your theoretical bike company/shop is selling complete bikes below, say $2500 minimum, the suspension components have to be pretty basic. And pretty "not that great". And the bike would likely be a tank, as in heavy.
Am I wrong? Can you get a really good bike at MSRP $2500? $2000?? That doesn't need a suspension upgrade at both ends?
yt capra al
oh well. I don't see being able to hit that price point with that component level any time soon.
Got beaten by a Whistler kid once riding a flogged out RM7 with bald minions. Thats my entire sample size.
well, you'd probably go out of business pretty fast with that model, IMO there just aren't enough people that understand this. People will always buy the 1500-2500 "junk" FS bikes that have ridiculously unsafe-at-speed damping systems. Fox, Manitou, RS and whomever will cash in to sell the OEM crap and make a few bucks.
I'm not sure, but I'll ask this- What made a $4000 bike a top tier 10 years ago that now makes it mediocre?
I know cost go up, but they claim that's why they went overseas (to bring cost down). I know an extra cog or 2 cost more, but you're now saving 2 chainrings a shifter and derailleur...
carbon
It is, but it's not the top of the line model that it was 10 years ago or so. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure this is what was being discussed. It probably won't have the high end suspension, but rather just mediocre.
So I just got my bike back from warranty with the rocker arm...I brought it in in October.
Thought this belonged here...
Thought this belonged here...
Well, MY $4000 bikes come with DVO Diamond fork and DVO Topaz shock, which I consider pretty high end. Where is gets "higher end" than that is...carbon. Carbon wheels add a LOT. throw on some carbon cranks and carbon bars, maybe a carbon dropper, superduper Eagle drivetrain.
Those are the most expensive bits to pump up the price
Well that is a nice build. Unfortunately carbon is the new hot item that riders want, but it's technically as "advanced" as cardboard.
Funny how I've seen companies introduce carbon frames as the Rolls Royce, and in turn see their aluminum frames drop in price by hundreds... Even around a grand. I forget who in particular, but their frames were around $2800. Then when carbon became the Rolls, the crabon frame went to $3200ish and the aluminum went south to $1800ish.
Why?
Because they know that they will widen the gap which makes crabboard look better.
Funny how I've seen companies introduce carbon frames as the Rolls Royce, and in turn see their aluminum frames drop in price by hundreds... Even around a grand. I forget who in particular, but their frames were around $2800. Then when carbon became the Rolls, the crabon frame went to $3200ish and the aluminum went south to $1800ish.
Why?
Because they know that they will widen the gap which makes crabboard look better.
@Tantrum Cycles , what do you think of x-fusion? Friend of mine uses them as part of sponsorship package and attended a training course in Taiwan (not far from my country) to learn how to work on them. He says they work well, are sturdy and don't have cheap plastic parts.
Xfusion is ok for the price. Full disclosure, I am only speaking of the Sweep and Trace air forks and 02 series air shocks. Started with the base models of both, which held the bike up in the air and moved over some bumps and stuff. I would say generally harsh and spiky, but VERY cheap.
This is what I did the very first reviews of including the infamous PB test when RC told me "don't bring that shitty fork out here". It wasn't shitty, just a very base model, that in the relatively smooth dirt in Indiana, with more rounded roots than sharp rocks, it was ok. When I raced the Sea Otter Enduro 2 yrs ago, I started to realize how limited it was, when on a high speed washboard, it made my vision blurry and tough to hang on to the bars.
After the PB test, XF kinda apologized for giving me that fork and explained that, because it was an OE model fork, it was even MORE baseline than the baseline aftermarket fork. It turns out this is done quite a bit in the industry, where the OE version is slightly dumbed down than the aftermarket version of the same "model" component.
Moving up to the top line model, Roughcut cartridge fork and Pro level shock gets much better. More able to react quickly to hits, but the front fork still got overwhelmed with a big hit and would spike pretty harshly. And nobody would confuse it with a topline Fox, Rockshox or DVO.
In comparison, going to the DVO, it is immediately stiffer in steering (and heavier), so much so that jumping back on the XF feels noodly. The DVO is much plusher at the top and all the way thru the travel, with better bottom out resistance and better big hit/multiple hit action. Noticeably better.
Really, the same can be said for going to the Topaz rear shock: is much plusher at the top and all the way thru the travel, with better bottom out resistance and better big hit/multiple hit action. Noticeably better.
Doddy at GMBN tech is considering X-Fusion for a bike build. It would be interesting to see what he thinks if he does go that route. Did you get to visit their factory in Taiwan and also see if they were making parts for other brands?
Ever try the newer higher end suntour products? Suntour also does the manufacturing for DVO if I'm not mistaken.
The guy I'm testing the 35mm cockpit for has contacts at X Fusion. The factory used to manufacture Fox forks at their beginnings and then came out with their own line after loosing the manufacturing contract. As far as I know they just do their stuff.
Suntour OTOH makes DVO since Ronnie had the contacts from the time they used to do the Marzocchi line.
The main reason I went with XF to start was that a friend of mine ran their U.S. Sales/Devo office in Santa Cruz. He would work with me on valving, etc, and it was good enough for me to get started with my suspension design. I could also get stuff relatively quick.
This year, XF closed up their U.S. office. So now, no close working relationship and I had to order everything straight from Taiwan. That's one reason, I've kinda steered away from XF, even for the low end. I've been to the A-pro factory, which is their parent frame company, but didn't pay much attention to the XF end of it.
Suntour does make DVO. Bryson, Tom and Ronnie all know those guys from Marz days. One of the Suntour guys was pitching their new airshock at Interbike. He was gonna bring me one but....maybe I'll see it at Sea Otter. He claimed better than the Topaz.
Aside from Taokas, did you see the bike brands manufactured by A-pro?
Darren of Suntour North America is a really nice and helpful guy. I pester him about my older model durolux rc2 and he always replies promptly.
Does x-fusion make stuff for ohlins or ohlins make their own?