If only the young MTB industry had a suspension supplier with Moto experience that could have set the standard of quality over marketing.
This is what's wrong with The Industry™
- Thread starter Electric_City
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Marzocchi was never a massive OE supplier to anyone in the moto world. They were still somewhat "boutique" even at their largest volumes.
Would still rather look at their ads than see another years worth of dreamed up dumbass acronyms that the rest of the companies are marketing.
so you can get finns bike for just 10k?
Finns bike is a prototype, so no. What's the point here?
You don’t need damping when you got DDs
Depends. Aftermarket, or stock?
seems plush.
The Vanderbilt's actually made their fortune on the transition from the penny farthing to the safety bicycle and George Soros the Enduro bike. Modern bike geometry and technology was known by the Vanderbuilt's but they kept it a secret and released knowingly suboptimal bikes as a means of selling new year models. They also own the technology for the water carburetor. Enduro bearings is actually owned by the descendants of the Howard Hughes fortune and Bill Gates banned hardtails at Whistler.
vamderbilts...makes sense that biltmore is in the middle of le pisgah, eh?
Their main home was in NY, but lizards are cold blooded so a warmer winter home was needed. I bet Cane Creek's logo makes more sense now.
how much coin would one need to add to get a dh bike like one ridden by the top 20 over a stock bike?
how much coin would one need to add to get a mx bike like one ridden by the top 20 mx racers over a stock bike?
how much coin would one need to add to get a mx bike like one ridden by the top 20 mx racers over a stock bike?
My Buddy got 6th or 7th at the Last Hangtown 500 National beat Jeff Stanton aborad his CR500 with aftermarket suspension and basic motor mods. So you don't need that FACTORY RIDE that all those guys get free to be competitive. Another thing that the ECONOMY OF SCALE argument doesn't address is that everyone in the MOTO industry makes way more money like noticeably more on engineering ends and looks like the bike market did $1 BILL more in sales in THE US than the motorcycle world just 2 years ago.
Hey if you want to live in Bay Area and start at $60K a year engineering seats at Specialized that's cool. But you will never be able to buy that crappy $1.45 million dollar 1600SQ/FT home built in 1989 at that rate of pay.
I spent a decent amount of time trying to raise funding for a US Race Team. It was sort of funny of learning how much more a Factory MX Team costs to operate. I'm not sure who "manages" the BIG TEAMS nowadays. But it sure seems like they aren't trying too hard to get real money backing their outfits so they can pay team members decent money....
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correct me if i'm wrong, but don't all the major moto companies have other business segments? eg they don't exclusively make dirtbikes.
two other things on the moto vs mtb topic:
model complexity.
bike companies off WAY more models than moto companies do - even when you account for things like trail, race bikes, dual sports. it's not even close. and then there's multiple sizes of each model. example: specialized has about 12 core mtb models (there's different tiers based on parts spec, but for this we're just focusing on the frames). about half (6) of them are offered in both alloy and carbon, so that's technically now 18 models. and let's say they are each offered in 5 sizes. that makes 90 unique models. honda, for example, offers 28 models total (across 4 categories: trail, competition, adventure, dual sport).
pricing.
honda dirt bikes start at $1650 (crf50). across their 28 models, only 5 of them cost less than $5k. only 6 cost 10k or more.
mountain bikes, on the other hand, have a very wide price range. spesh bikes range from $700 to $15k. half of them are below $4k. about a quarter of them are $2k or less. only 15 are $10k or more. so their offerings skew to more models on the low end of the price range. and the largest sales volumes on bikes are going to be on that lower end of the price spectrum.
should also add, anyone that's worked in a bike shop will know that bikes themselves don't have very high profit margins, the largest margins are in accessories: clothes, helmets, shoes, etc.
model complexity.
bike companies off WAY more models than moto companies do - even when you account for things like trail, race bikes, dual sports. it's not even close. and then there's multiple sizes of each model. example: specialized has about 12 core mtb models (there's different tiers based on parts spec, but for this we're just focusing on the frames). about half (6) of them are offered in both alloy and carbon, so that's technically now 18 models. and let's say they are each offered in 5 sizes. that makes 90 unique models. honda, for example, offers 28 models total (across 4 categories: trail, competition, adventure, dual sport).
pricing.
honda dirt bikes start at $1650 (crf50). across their 28 models, only 5 of them cost less than $5k. only 6 cost 10k or more.
mountain bikes, on the other hand, have a very wide price range. spesh bikes range from $700 to $15k. half of them are below $4k. about a quarter of them are $2k or less. only 15 are $10k or more. so their offerings skew to more models on the low end of the price range. and the largest sales volumes on bikes are going to be on that lower end of the price spectrum.
should also add, anyone that's worked in a bike shop will know that bikes themselves don't have very high profit margins, the largest margins are in accessories: clothes, helmets, shoes, etc.
covid wild card, people in big cities were buying bikes so they could get outside. dirt bikes weren't an option for them. all signs are pointing to a slowdown in bike sales now that things have been open up for a good span of time. also sales figures aren't the same as profit margins.
Top 20 for each, very little. A few $k maybe. Travel costs and tire costs will be FAR greater.
Top 5 for each, start adding 0's.
The economies of scale thing is a bit amusing too. Frame production #'s are probably way lower than dirt bike production numbers, but forks/shocks aren't. I'd say those are FAR greater, especially since they're all really the same architecture. The # of SKU's that a frame manufacturer has to manage between sizes, models, and color combos is just bonkers. That partially makes up for the added complexity of the engine/electronics....but not completely.
And yes, all the moto manufacturers have other market segments. Street bikes, power tools, generators.......pianos.
New mountain bikes have a higher profit margin than powersports vehicles do by a loooong shot too. 5% is the target margin for new moto vehicle sales, and (pre-COVID) most dealers were clearing 1-3% on dirt bikes. 10-25% on UTV's/SXS though. Dirt bikes have always been loss leaders for dealers and manufacturers.
COVID wild-card applied big time to dirt bikes just the same. Huge markups, scarcity, etc. Dealers actually made money on these things and enjoyed real margins for a bit. Used market was just stupid, especially in CA as some of the new EPA/CARB restrictions were coming into place. A 3 year old bike would be listed for MORE than new MSRP and be gone in a matter of hours. That has definitely cooled now but it was silly for a while.
Fox.
bikerumor.com
Fox sues SRAM over bleed valves on 2023 Rockshox suspension forks
Fox is suing SRAM for patent infringement, claiming the pressure relief valves used on their 2023 forks are ripping off Fox's patented tech.
bikerumor.com
Yep - even my Ribbon coil has bleed ports.
Main seal equalization port, also used by old fox open bath forks without proper oil seals.
SRAM got one for attaching a battery to a derrailleur, tell me about stoopid patents...
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is it the problem that companies are submitting for questionable patents, or the patent office for issuing them?