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This is what's wrong with The Industry™

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
21,943
21,464
Canaderp
A lot of these folks call themselves designers, so I'm sure part of it is following industry trends™. Or the lizards want them to following the trends™.


Its the same thing with cars. In the days of yore, each brand had its own flare, headlight design and character. Now they are all the same colour and shaped blobs.
 

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,693
549
Sea to Sky BC
I'm not looking away from bikes, I'm just using mine a lot longer because it's still works great, is easily serviceable, and serving my purposes well. Buy something that's durable with a great warranty and support, and ignore the marginal gains game the industry is serving at premium prices.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
88,750
26,970
media blackout
A lot of these folks call themselves designers, so I'm sure part of it is following industry trends™. Or the lizards want them to following the trends™.


Its the same thing with cars. In the days of yore, each brand had its own flare, headlight design and character. Now they are all the same colour and shaped blobs.
i'm working with an industrial designer, and he can't understand why something he created in the metaverse can't be exported directly to a 3d printer.
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
I am also mad about the industry catering more and more to upper middle class men over 40 living in developed countries but that's just the pricing
TBF You seem to be angry about pretty much everything.
There are tons of young (12 - 16yr old) riders local to me who ride all the time. Backgrounds ranging from middle class to low income family life. These kids bikes vary from a 10+yr old second hand bike that's never even been used by the kid more than 5 miles from home nevermind driven places to entire fleets of current high end bikes (DH, Enduro, DJ/pumptrack & Eebs) that spend every weekend being driven by their multi high end bike owing dads all over the UK to bike parks, popular riding areas and races.
Some of the kids from the poorest backgrounds would out ride most of this forum.

You could do a lot worse that take a leaf out of their book and stopping worrying so much about shit that doesn't matter and try to just enjoy riding your bike (whatever it is)
 
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norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
TBF You seem to be angry about pretty much everything.
There are tons of young (12 - 16yr old) riders local to me who ride all the time. Backgrounds ranging from middle class to low income family life. These kids bikes vary from a 10+yr old second hand bike that's never even been more than 5 miles from home nevermind driven to a riding spot to an entire fleet of current high end bikes that spend every weekend being driven by the multi high end bije owing dads all over the UK to bike parks, popular riding areas and races.
Some of the kids from the poorest backgrounds would out rude MOAR of thus forum.

You could do a lot worse that take a leaf out of their book and stopping worrying so much about shit that doesn't matter and try to just enjoy riding your bike (whatever it is)
I was exaggerating about me being mad. Don't take everything literally.

Also I'm not saying people without dentist money don't ride. Simply mentioned the industry seems to focus most on high end products. There are still entry level products. It's just most of the focus goes on expensive stuff. Bike company focus vs what people ride in your local spots are really 2 different things though.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
21,943
21,464
Canaderp
I was ironic when I said I'm mad.

Also I'm not saying people without dentist money don't ride. Simply mentioned the industry seems to focus most on high end products. There are still entry level products. It's just most of the focus goes on expensive stuff.
We're all just raccoons attracted to the shiny bits and bobs on those expensive ones.

Plus it hides some of the lower end models that are marketed as an "XT" build for example, but 98% of the drivetrain is not XT. :butcher:
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
We're all just raccoons attracted to the shiny bits and bobs on those expensive ones.
Tbh I'm past that. I mean sure it would be nice to have all the fanciest parts but I'd rather focus on riding. Though it is weird to see companies come up with new super premium or limited edition products. The biggest number of new things seem to appear there. Not that those products aren't great. Sometimes they are but well I'm free to not like the trend.
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
Be 100% honest?
What do you spend MOAR hours of your life doing?
"researching" dissecting and debating the merits and failings of high end bicycle equipment. The industry it came from, the sport and its media coverage.?
Or
Riding a bicycle.?

#WhatswrongwithCycleEnthusiasts
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
Be 100% honest?
What do you spend MOAR hours of your life doing?
"researching" dissecting and debating the merits and failings of high end bicycle equipment. The industry it came from, the sport and its media coverage.?
Or
Riding a bicycle.?

#WhatswrongwithCycleEnthusiasts
I don't know but I don't want to get into another argument where you are mad at me for saying something and want to derail a discussion about to you again having a problem with me. We don't agree on many things and it's fine. If you think I don't ride enough you are free to think that. I will continue to ride the amount that makes me happy.

Though you do realize no one is going "oh I could be riding right now but I would rather talk about bikes on RM"? We spend time here when we can't ride. So you are presenting a false argument. Still I hope my comments didn't ruin your day and you can still spend more time riding and less time "debating". Now can we not make this another shitstorm between us? I unblocked you because I thought you had it out of your system.

PS. How long writing a post on RM takes you? Since I don't think I spend more than 15min per day here. You may be good at riding a lot but defo not at writing
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,108
10,671
AK
Be 100% honest?
What do you spend MOAR hours of your life doing?
"researching" dissecting and debating the merits and failings of high end bicycle equipment. The industry it came from, the sport and its media coverage.?
Or
Riding a bicycle.?

#WhatswrongwithCycleEnthusiasts
Recovering from damage
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
I don't know but I don't want to get into another argument where you are mad at me
It's not an argument. It's a fairly simple a question. Addressed to the forum in general. Not just you.
You 100% do know the answer.
We all do.
Once you've answered. Whether you want to share or not do take a little time to think about what actually matters to you more.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
It's not an argument. It's a fairly simple a question. Addressed to the forum in general. Not just you.
You 100% do know the answer.
We all do.
Once you've answered. Whether you want to share or not do take a little time to think about what actually matters to you more.
Yeah and the answer is we all ride more than we spend here because it takes seconds to write posts on RM. You must be really bad at writing to think otherwise. I thought UK achieved 100% literacy rate.


Bad words do heal in time
Didn't know it's bad words that broke my back.
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
Though you do realize no one is going "oh I could be riding right now but I would rather talk about bikes on RM"?
I'm lucky enough to be able to ride pretty much every day and currently less than 10ft away from 3 bikes I'm free to ride right now if I really wanted to.
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
Yeah and the answer is we all ride more than we spend here because it takes seconds to write posts on RM. You must be really bad at writing to think otherwise. I thought UK achieved 100% literacy rate.
I didn't ask how much time people are spending on Ridemonkey. Try reading my question again. Maybe come back to it a few times if understanding it exceeds your 15min limit
The interpretation side of literacy is hardly your super power so I'd stay clear of criticising others if I were you.

You do ask for this BTW.
 

Lelandjt

adorbs
Apr 4, 2008
2,637
998
Breckenridge, CO/Lahaina,HI
We're all just raccoons attracted to the shiny bits and bobs on those expensive ones.

Plus it hides some of the lower end models that are marketed as an "XT" build for example, but 98% of the drivetrain is not XT. :butcher:
Built a Santa Cruz "XO build" the other day. Only XO parts were shifter and derailleur. If I was spending $8k for a trail bike with "XO build" I'd be pretty pissed to see the cheap, heavy cassette and crank on it and the bike's 30+lb weight. I'm amazed at that company's ability to keep finding customers regardless of their pricing, spec, and weight.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
I didn't ask how much time people are spending on Ridemonkey. Try reading my question again. Maybe come back to it a few times if understanding it exceeds your 15min limit
The interpretation side of literacy is hardly your super power so I'd stay clear of criticising others if I were you.

You do ask for this BTW.
Ah yes because your comment assumes RM opinions about the industry mean we are all spending 4 hours per day doing deep intustry analisis and create excel spreadsheets and not just making comments because based on general observations. Sure.

Also we've been though this but I thought we established that the "interpretation side of literacy" is my job and it isn't yours.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
I'm lucky enough to be able to ride pretty much every day and currently less than 10ft away from 3 bikes I'm free to ride right now if I really wanted to.
So wait. You are free to ride right now. I am not and you are giving me shit for spending time on RM and not riding? I mean such a literacy expert like you must have reached the letter H in dictionary to see the problem here. Mate most of us shitpost here because we have office jobs and this is a way to procrastinate at work. You actively chose this over riding. Shut up and go riding.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,697
3,157
Be 100% honest?
What do you spend MOAR hours of your life doing?
"researching" dissecting and debating the merits and failings of high end bicycle equipment. The industry it came from, the sport and its media coverage.?
Or
Riding a bicycle.?

#WhatswrongwithCycleEnthusiasts
Which makes us not different from any other tech-based hobby: cars, motorcycles, cameras, ....
Human nature?
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
Built a Santa Cruz "XO build" the other day. Only XO parts were shifter and derailleur. If I was spending $8k for a trail bike with "XO build" I'd be pretty pissed to see the cheap, heavy cassette and crank on it and the bike's 30+lb weight. I'm amazed at that company's ability to keep finding customers regardless of their pricing, spec, and weight.
I hear people swear by their customer support and warranty service. Not sure if that attracts them new customers but it sure helps you retain them.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
Which makes us not different from any other tech-based hobby: cars, motorcycles, cameras, ....
Human nature?
Naah we are extra stupid for not spending time at our hobby and Gary will sacrifice his own riding time to tell us that.
 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,697
3,157
Naah we are extra stupid for not spending time at our hobby and Gary will sacrifice his own riding time to tell us that.
I would not say stupid. But bikes as a hobby are, at least for me, the perfect mix of exercise, challenge, adrenalin, enjoying nature, maintaining and optimizing machinery, and collecting.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
I would not say stupid. But bikes as a hobby are, at least for me, the perfect mix of exercise, challenge, adrenalin, enjoying nature, maintaining and optimizing machinery, and collecting.
I was paraphrasing his silly argument. Nothing bad with reading and talking about bikes. Especially when we can't ride since despite what our OG Scott of Biking tells us we can't spend 24h per day riding bikes.
 

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,693
549
Sea to Sky BC
Built a Santa Cruz "XO build" the other day. Only XO parts were shifter and derailleur. If I was spending $8k for a trail bike with "XO build" I'd be pretty pissed to see the cheap, heavy cassette and crank on it and the bike's 30+lb weight. I'm amazed at that company's ability to keep finding customers regardless of their pricing, spec, and weight.
I'm actually on a 2019 Bronson, got the gx package pre-covid pricing, waited till I wore out the GX, put on XT. Smashed the lowers on the Fox 36, upgraded to Lyric Ultimate. Smashed the crap rims, upgraded to some reserve 30's. The frame is super solid and the bike rarely needs maintenance, and it's sub-30 lbs when I weighed it before a bike packing trip last summer. Current pricing though....probably not making the same choice, although can't say there's much out there really exciting me as far as bikes go, just We Are 1 because it's Canadian made, but I'm also a 27.5 luddite and averse to spending that much money on a new bike.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
I'm actually on a 2019 Bronson, got the gx package pre-covid pricing, waited till I wore out the GX, put on XT. Smashed the lowers on the Fox 36, upgraded to Lyric Ultimate. Smashed the crap rims, upgraded to some reserve 30's. The frame is super solid and the bike rarely needs maintenance, and it's sub-30 lbs when I weighed it before a bike packing trip last summer. Current pricing though....probably not making the same choice, although can't say there's much out there really exciting me as far as bikes go, just We Are 1 because it's Canadian made, but I'm also a 27.5 luddite and averse to spending that much money on a new bike.
Honest question. What in SC frames really speaks to you?
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
TBF You seem to be angry about pretty much everything.
There are tons of young (12 - 16yr old) riders local to me who ride all the time. Backgrounds ranging from middle class to low income family life. These kids bikes vary from a 10+yr old second hand bike that's never even been used by the kid more than 5 miles from home nevermind driven places to entire fleets of current high end bikes (DH, Enduro, DJ/pumptrack & Eebs) that spend every weekend being driven by their multi high end bike owing dads all over the UK to bike parks, popular riding areas and races.
Some of the kids from the poorest backgrounds would out ride most of this forum.

You could do a lot worse that take a leaf out of their book and stopping worrying so much about shit that doesn't matter and try to just enjoy riding your bike (whatever it is)
Funny thing is I just realized you took what was generally a positive comment containing one thing that kinda annoys me, cropped it and pretended it was a negative one.
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
So wait. You are free to ride right You actively chose this over riding. Shut up and go riding.
What? Even if Ive already been riding today?
Twice.

I wasn't giving anyone shit for their choices at all. Simply asking others to take a second to think about them.
You seem to be doing a splendid job of beating yourself up over pretty much everything all by yourself.
 

Gary

my pronouns are hag/gis
Aug 27, 2002
8,509
6,420
UK
Which makes us not different from any other tech-based hobby: cars, motorcycles, cameras, ....
Human nature?
Slightly MOAR Hu MALE nature I'd say. But yes. I didn't say there was anything wrong with that.

But if the discussion/researching/ dissection is making you unhappy/angry you probably have the balance with actual participation fucked.
 

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,693
549
Sea to Sky BC
Honest question. What in SC frames really speaks to you?
Works great for the variety of riding I do, very reliable so I don't have to worry about long term durability, solid warranty if I ever did have a problem, and at the time it was a price I considered reasonable for those benefits. It's been through 4 seasons of pretty solid use in the Sea to Sky and beyond, including regular BC "XC", big descents, gnarly tech, slabs, etc. and does not ever let me down, and I expect it to easily last a couple more seasons before I am ready for something newer. Bearings are all well shielded and even riding in Squamish winters and spraying the shit out of it with a hose regularly it does not eat bearings, and when I needed new ones I had them for free within days and it was easy to replace them myself with limited mechanical know how. That being said their current pricing structure makes it a lot harder to seriously consider another one in the future, but we'll see what happens over the coming years since all bets are off on that front.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,508
In hell. Welcome!
One thing I dislike about my Megatower frame is the soft alloy upper link bolts so I am replacing them with aftermarket Ti bolts because :fancy:. Otherwise, the frame has been a joy to maintain and solid as fcuk so far.
 

ebarker9

Monkey
Oct 2, 2007
893
292
I have a Hightower and was trying to justify my selection of that a few days ago. In reality, most of us don't have the opportunity to ride a bunch of bikes within a segment before buying something. SC has a solid reputation, fairly typical geometry for a modern trail bike, suspension platform that works, free bearing replacement, and good support from a number of local shops. I recently had a rental Ibis Ripley AF and a Transition Sentinel. I'd be happy owning either of those as well.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
1,190
1,156
Works great for the variety of riding I do, very reliable so I don't have to worry about long term durability, solid warranty if I ever did have a problem, and at the time it was a price I considered reasonable for those benefits. It's been through 4 seasons of pretty solid use in the Sea to Sky and beyond, including regular BC "XC", big descents, gnarly tech, slabs, etc. and does not ever let me down, and I expect it to easily last a couple more seasons before I am ready for something newer. Bearings are all well shielded and even riding in Squamish winters and spraying the shit out of it with a hose regularly it does not eat bearings, and when I needed new ones I had them for free within days and it was easy to replace them myself with limited mechanical know how. That being said their current pricing structure makes it a lot harder to seriously consider another one in the future, but we'll see what happens over the coming years since all bets are off on that front.
I'd definitely seriously consider a SC frame again in the future because of that. Of the brands I've owned (Specialized, Ibis, Santa Cruz, Transition, Guerrilla Gravity, and Commencal), the SC frames had by far the best hardware, bearing protection, cable routing, and paint quality. They cost a fortune now but I'd stomach it for a frame only. Their build kit values aren't great, but most brand's aren't either.

Specialized is probably second in terms of quality on the list above, but slightly better on value for frames and certain builds. Ibis has decent value but their paint was garbage and bearing shielding sucked. Transition paint is awful but the value is good, especially on their build kits. GG has good value and paint quality, but the bearing shielding sucks. Commencal is good value but wouldn't buy anything more complicated than a DJ from them.
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
21,943
21,464
Canaderp
Girlfriend has an aluminum Bronson and its a stout frame for sure. So far its been trouble free and free bearings are free bearings. I'm not sure if they've moved on or not, but it also uses a regular old non-trunnionfucked shock. It was purchased way before covid, but still had a pretty high cost for the component spec - but in fairness everything on it has been mostly trouble free as well (except for the damn Reverb).
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
Works great for the variety of riding I do, very reliable so I don't have to worry about long term durability, solid warranty if I ever did have a problem, and at the time it was a price I considered reasonable for those benefits. It's been through 4 seasons of pretty solid use in the Sea to Sky and beyond, including regular BC "XC", big descents, gnarly tech, slabs, etc. and does not ever let me down, and I expect it to easily last a couple more seasons before I am ready for something newer. Bearings are all well shielded and even riding in Squamish winters and spraying the shit out of it with a hose regularly it does not eat bearings, and when I needed new ones I had them for free within days and it was easy to replace them myself with limited mechanical know how. That being said their current pricing structure makes it a lot harder to seriously consider another one in the future, but we'll see what happens over the coming years since all bets are off on that front.
So basically SC = Apple of bikes? (not a dig. I am writing it on a mac). Very expensive but you buy it and generally live a worry free life with the product.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
Slightly MOAR Hu MALE nature I'd say. But yes. I didn't say there was anything wrong with that.

But if the discussion/researching/ dissection is making you unhappy/angry you probably have the balance with actual participation fucked.
Well Gary. I made a generally positive comment about how it's good we get less variety of design since a lot of said variety resulted in sub par bikes. Now when everyone seems to more or less know what works it's harder to buy a bike that rides trash. I hyperbolically said I'm "mad" about where the industry is going and you decided that's 100% of my comment and that I'm sitting at home, red faced, wearing a red "make bikes cheap again" hat. Don't take everything everyone says literally. Or rather. Stop trying to pick fights with me. I am happy. You should try it.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
What? Even if Ive already been riding today?
Twice.

I wasn't giving anyone shit for their choices at all. Simply asking others to take a second to think about them.
You seem to be doing a splendid job of beating yourself up over pretty much everything all by yourself.
Naah you were implying that people talk too much about bikes and ride too little mate (hence the "how much do you ride bruh" comment). Now you seem to be backpedaling. Stop assuming I have il intent in every comment and looking for fights with me and then you can avoid having to pretend you intented to say something else than you actually did
 
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FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,693
549
Sea to Sky BC
'very expensive' is always going to be somewhat subjective, but ultimately I'm a low faff guy and want shit that just works that I don't have to fiddle with incessantly because I ride it hard, put it away wet and dirty, and don't want to have to worry about its reliability at all. so, I guess my value proposition factors that in. could I have gotten something 'cheaper'? probably. would it have been worth it? debatable. I've tried to do cheaper in the past and all that got me was cracked frames and waiting on warranties.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,503
1,719
Warsaw :/
'very expensive' is always going to be somewhat subjective, but ultimately I'm a low faff guy and want shit that just works that I don't have to fiddle with incessantly because I ride it hard, put it away wet and dirty, and don't want to have to worry about its reliability at all. so, I guess my value proposition factors that in. could I have gotten something 'cheaper'? probably. would it have been worth it? debatable. I've tried to do cheaper in the past and all that got me was cracked frames and waiting on warranties.
Well I define very expensive as "costs significantly more than the average price for a given product". Very expensive doesn't mean "not worth the price". I know one coffee shop that sells 15E per cup coffee and it's defo worth that price.
 
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toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,835
5,212
Australia
The one thing the all modern industries excel at is convincing everyone that what they have is no longer up to scratch after a couple years, or that anything but the top-of-the-line is holding you back. Cycling is no different and it can be a particularly invasive thought pattern, especially considering the "tech geek" appeal that MTB has. There's an over-representation of engineers and technically-minded folk in MTB circles, and its easy to be convinced you either need newer stuff, or better stuff. I guess there's nothing wrong with that per se, but I'd still like to see some more coverage given to the non-sponsored riders doing well on whatever they can afford or what works for them. Kinda dull seeing "bike checks" done with sponno'ed riders who bizarrely have chosen to run whatever they were given for free.