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This is what's wrong with The Industry™

norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,465
1,679
Warsaw :/
Jm_ said:
Naw, just shit designed stuff, like Ferraris that you gotta drop the engine out of to change the oil or Audis with the timing belt in the rear instead of the front. You also look up some of that stuff with those exotic engine and see what their intervals are for certain components. Some of it is absolutely ridiculous, like every few hundred hours do this or that, spend lots of money and car-downtime.

Maybe not that Ferraris are "shit designed", but they'll go after performance with compromises as far as engine and drivetrain stuff. And then they are beat around a track by a 911 GT3 or Turbo. And then the reviewers say "but the sound" or something...

But, my pushrod LT1 with one of the stiffest chassis ever will punch way beyond it's price-class and shame cars on the track that cost 2-3x, all with no special maintenance or excessive requirements. In fact, I go beat on it during races time after time and it just asks for more. Porsche tends to have fairly similar design philosophy, where you can go beat on any of them racing, from a macan GTS to a 911, all day long and they just ask for more. If they design it right, you can have your cake and eat it too. You don't *have* to have more maintenance necessarily. You just need the entire package designed well.

The bicycle industry on the other hand is full of retard rejects using hope as quality control when specs and manufacturing are outsourced. Dave turner said the best setup would be tapered bearings, and then I say tapered bearings with grease ports, just like what a lot of automotive/industrial applications have, would be the best. If you had the ability to run a bearing with that lateral support and could keep it full of grease...and it was large enough for the actual forces, then I reckon we'd be sitting pretty nicely and bearing changes would be rare. Dave relented to the next-best of Igus bushing with grease ports, despite requiring moar better tolerances for alignment of the pivots, given the limited rotation of bicycle suspension. With fairly tight control on manufacturing, he could get away with it. Will you find ball bearings on the suspension on a car/truck? Nope. What they call a "bearing" is a bushing usually, as in bushings are a type of bearing. So my Pivot does pretty well over time, I've replaced all the bearings, but the bottom link ones in the frame have really small bearings, doubled up on both sides (XC frame too), but due to size restrictions they probably had to do the double-bearing thing. Then you get the ridiculous proprietary "hat" bearings with the extended inner lip that only enduo makes that are all the rage right now (which the pivot has a couple). And they shouldn't be goddam ball bearings in the first place. It's a shit-fest IMO on most bikes. What you are getting is nowhere near as good as what is possible and daresay normal in other applications.
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I mean with some weird high end car designs like on Ferraris I understand their priority is performance not serviceability so I kinda get the tradeoff. Though I also assume this becomes a design habit and the companies engineers may not think about serviceability at all.

I get an annoying design if it brings NOTICEABLE benefits. This is why i respect Koenigsegg. Their designs are compliicated AF (was it 5 or 7 clutches?) but they push the technology forward.

As for bearings. This is why I mentioned my Legend. Imho a 170mm enduro bike that's a Cross between my Old Legend and the current Banshee titan, on a mullet setup would be perfect for me. Looking at the Titan it also goes for big ass bearings and none of that Evil bs.


@Gary re. Orange. Performance wise I know it makes no sense to buy an Orange but for some weird reason I always wanted one. I won't buy one but I will always be thinking about it. I think they managed their image well so they sell. To be honest I'm quite surprised given so many people were and still are on "single pivot= bad pivot" hype train.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,920
5,824
UK
Minnaar, Peaty, Sik Mik and Brendog all managed to pilot those "things" to National and WC podiums.
Minnaar and Peat even won a few ;)

It still makes me laugh knowing that those guys on those frames would still be faster than pretty much every punter worrying about whatever it's currently en vogue to worry about in mtb marketing. If I'm honest it's partly why I'm still happily rockin up to "Enduro" rides on a tiny 26" bike.
 
SylentK

SylentK

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2004
2,388
904
coloRADo
Maybe it was just luck, but my first generation SC Nomad (2006?) needed NO bearing maintenance or really any bolt tightening in my 6 ish years of ownership and abuse. For the record I even put on an Avalanche rear shock. It was that rad of a bike.

I had a Commencal Meta 4 (2008?), pretty much same. Bearing/linkage was totally maint free.

Iron Horse Sunday, constant mess. But oh I loved that bike. Like a high maintenance girlfriend.

Turner 5spot, ugh, worst day of my life. Bolt broke off and stuck in linkage. Otherwise solid bike.

Many bikes before and later, not much bearing/pivot problems. But those stick out as best/worst.
 
jstuhlman

jstuhlman

bagpipe wanker
Dec 3, 2009
16,838
13,272
Cackalacka du Nord
never replaced bearings in my nomad. replaced them once in 8 years on my uzzi. maintained semi-randomly. ridden not a lot, but a once weekly beating on average year round in all conditions, on all trails from local xc shit to windrock and snowshoe
 
buckoW

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,805
4,775
Champery, Switzerland
FlipFantasia said:
~2800mm/yr of precip here in Squamish, and aforementioned blasting the eff out of my bike with a hose frequently, mine lasted 3 seasons before they were pooched.
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1285mm/yr here in Champery.

Different bike designs put drastically different loads on bearings. Bearings will shit the bed all by themselves without contamination if undersized.
 
iRider

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,654
3,101
Gary said:
I'd disagree.
high end FS mtbs have all the same components as lower/mid range bikes.
the difference is high end bikes often tend to GET more maintenance. Whereas low/mid range bikes are often simply ridden to destruction. and only "repaired" when they STOP functioning.
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I mean, even you posted about how much more reliable lower speed drivetrains are. Those new 12 speed ones sure seem to need a lot of adjustment. I guess this is one reason some manufacturers go back (and because of ebikes).
More hollowed out, lightweight stuff attracts more dirt, needs to be cleaned more often because it attracts more dirt.
Carbon components are more sensitive to clamping forces, so bolt check is more often needed.
Lightweight wheels need a little more attention to keep the spoke tension even and running round.
Forks need to be serviced to keep function well (I know, cheap forks feel like crap to begin with and won't change much over time).
And then there are dropper posts....

Generally I think the closer the bike and components are build to the limit of what is feasible, the more you have to keep on top of them.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,920
5,824
UK
iRider said:
I mean, even you posted about how much more reliable lower speed drivetrains are
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No. what I actually posted about was how much more durable, longer mileage and faster/smoother shifting the smaller range lower speed drivetrains I use are than super wide range 12 speed drivetrains. But no modern mtb's come a with small range cassettes anymore. Even at the low/mid range pricepoints you'll find the even ten speed drivetrains will mainly come with 11-46 cassettes and plenty will use 11 speed (11-50). Many mid priced bikes can actually be found with 12 speed drivetrains with Deore and SX/NX offering more affordable (heavier) 12 speed drivetrains using cheaper 12 speed HG cassettes/HG freehubs
Exactly what expensive components are you talking about being "hollowed out"? the rear of most cheaper cranks are whereas Higher end Shimano is hollowtech and SRAM's higher end Carbon cranks don't have a hollow rear either. and I think you're clutching at straws saying high end part bolt torques need checked more often.
You'd also hope any truely decent high end wheelset would be built to a higher standard than OEM factory assembled wheelsets. so high end wheels spoke tensions needing more attention simply shouldn't be true and on top of that higher end rims should be stronger and stiffer for their weight especially Carbon rims. and being stiffer "should" mean narrower guage spokes will actually be LESS problematic than on cheaper flexier lightweight Alu rims. Mid range suspension tends to have exactly the same service intervals as a high end. and service costs if you're not able to DIY will be really similar.
What about dropper posts? We've found over the past few years cheap (£100) Brand X* posts to be among the most reliable out there. and being cartridge based require very little maintenance other than maybe a new cable eventually. They're certainly a lot more reliable and way easier to service than either a Reverb or Fox' shite effort at a droper post.

*made by TransX as are many of the cheap OEM droppers found on entry level bikes
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,465
1,679
Warsaw :/
StiHacka said:
There are few places on this planet that are more challenging that New England. Hot and humid in the Summer, wet in Spring and Fall, and fucking nasty in Winter. I ride every day when I can.
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Yeah it depends on the location. Polish mountains are 1140mm per year but most of the rainfall is in the summer and we don't ride in the winter since you know snow. Still that would mean bearings change evert 6-9 months. This is why I loved my legend. It was a hassle free frame. Not too much load on the bearings, Big bearings. Even in New England I'd expect you to double or triple your service intervals. Not sure if the same is true on their enduro thing.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,920
5,824
UK
Rain and Snow are counted as precipitation in yearly rainfall figures.
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,920
5,824
UK
Interupting the Freedom Vs Metric face wank off for a second
What I meant was. places with a proper snow season's yearly pecipitation figure probably won't be a very accurate measure of how wet the mtb riding is.
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,262
9,899
AK
I see the zig-zag lines of the skinny bikes from time to time...
 
Gary

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,920
5,824
UK
Seriously though. Try an Emtb this winter.
It's a game changer when snow/icey.
 
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