[iRider]

An EMTB rides absolutely nothing like a (lite) moto at all. Those "fat" riders you dislike's weight, lifestyle and fitness are not actually a problem at all.

This summer one group of these, in your opinion, so honorable gentlemen ran a female novice rider from my group off the trail because she could not let them pass quickly enough in a tight single track. Tire buzzing on the rear tire of the novice rider was only possible for those fucks because they had electro power.
Call me narrow minded, I am happy to be that if this is OK behaviour in your opinion.

 

[Gary]

No. that's shit. Obviously.
Hopefully you all returned the favour and threw the ignorant cunt and his bike off the trail.
Despite this one unfortunate incident you still shouldn't be tarring every overweight Ebike rider you deem to have an inferior fitness level with the same brush as that arsehole. That's the narrowminded part.

Some people are dicks. That's pretty much a given in all walks of life.

 

[rideit]

That happened to me as well in Left Hand Canyon.
Dude buzzed my tire twice while we were climbing.
And the crazy thing was that it was on double track, he could have passed.
Total dick move, and it put me off ebikes for a good while.
I totally understand why people don’t want them mixing with regular bikes on crowded front country trails as a result of shit like that.

 

[canadmos]

That happened to me as well in Left Hand Canyon.
Dude buzzed my tire twice while we were climbing.
And the crazy thing was that it was on double track, he could have passed.
Total dick move, and it put me off ebikes for a good while.
I totally understand why people don’t want them mixing with regular bikes on crowded front country trails as a result of shit like that.

That's odd behavior when he could just go around. Did you tell him fuck off?

When my friends tire buzz me I just give a good hard tap of the brakes. It usually keeps them at bay for a while, I'm sure it'll work for some rando as well. Would be a shame if their tire got sliced by your brake rotor! A shame I tell you.

 

[Westy]

Bernard Kerr on Instagram: "Eebin all around. @pivotcycles shuttle LT gets it DONE! sick day! #shuttlelt #pivotcycles"

19K likes, 43 comments - bernard_kerr on November 17, 2022: "Eebin all around. @pivotcycles shuttle LT gets it DONE! sick day! #shuttlelt #pivotcycles".

www.instagram.com

Man paid to promote a product likes said product, news at 11:00.

 

[toodles]

We're not all the same. Thank fuck.

Except Enduro riders. And XC riders. And Yeti owners. And the Dutch. And Scotch

 

[toodles]

This summer one group of these, in your opinion, so honorable gentlemen ran a female novice rider from my group off the trail because she could not let them pass quickly enough in a tight single track. Tire buzzing on the rear tire of the novice rider was only possible for those fucks because they had electro power.
Call me narrow minded, I am happy to be that if this is OK behaviour in your opinion.

A cunt is a cunt no matter what bike they're on.

 

[iRider]

Some people are dicks. That's pretty much a given in all walks of life.

A cunt is a cunt no matter what bike they're on.

Somehow ebikes seem to attract them though.

 

[HardtailHack]

Somehow ebikes seem to attract them though.

And the dickish ones are able to ride further/faster so you will see them more often than dickish non E-bikers.
Same sorta reason walkers hate bike riders, they see a shit ton of them and one rider in five is probably a dick of a human.

 

[Gary]

Man paid to promote a product likes said product, news at 11:00.

Man chooses a sensible option out of the 10 bikes he's paid to ride MOAR like.
[doesn't make UK news]

That's a tiny little Southern English DH/jump bike park you have to pay for a day pass to ride but has no uplift service.
Taking your Ebike there makes tons of sense.
Remember: We don't have the #drama over riding mtbs with little motors on mtb trails the land of FREEDOM does.

 

[Westy]

Man chooses a sensible option out of the 10 bikes he's paid to ride MOAR like.
[doesn't make UK news]

That's a tiny little Southern English DH/jump bike park you have to pay for a day pass to ride but has no uplift service.
Taking your Ebike there makes tons of sense.
Remember: We don't have the #drama over riding mtbs with little motors on mtb trails the land of FREEDOM does.

So I'm guessing maybe a few hundred feet of elevation change a lap for a professional athlete? I am pretty sure he doesn't need an e-bike and would probably benefit from some long easy pedaling days this time of year. Not shown was probably the time he put on the trainer earlier in the day. But he sure made a bunch of 50 year old pre diabetic dentists feel like they can be like the pros.

I'm not even trying to bag on e-bikes here. Just laughing at the effectiveness of the marketing.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. YOU probably know way better than Bernard's coach as to what he needs

Just laughing at the effectiveness of the marketing.

Have you even ridden one?

No one's buying a £10k Pivot Eeb just because they saw Bernard Kerr send his local bike park's quad jump to flat on his.

very few 50yr old's are buying them off the back of seeing Pro DHers sending them. But plenty young guys who already send are realising how much more fun they are than wasting most of your day plodding up thousands of feet in a stupidly low gear on an Enduro bike.

 

[SylentK]

Have you seen the recent Yeti reviews? $10K USD? $5K for just the frame? I can go just down the street from them and get a Commencal for way less. Or even drive a bit into Denver and visit GG for less than that. All quality bikes. But wow Yeti. Love you, but not my jam. Unless you're sending Chris Conroy to my house to inspect and maintain the magical switch infinity system.

 

[Gary]

$5K for just the frame? I can go just down the street from them and get a Commencal for way less. Or even drive a bit into Denver and visit GG for less than that. All quality bikes.

So the same price as a colnago road frame?
I can go down the street and buy a Giant for way less. or even drive a bit to have a custom Shannd built for less than that. All quality bikes

Are you new to cycling?

 

[SylentK]

So the same price as a colnago road frame?
I can go down the street and buy a Giant for way less. or even drive a bit to have a custom Shannd built for less than that. All quality bikes

Are you new to cycling?

I think you missed the point. This is the "What is wrong with the industry thread" and this comment is related to prices. And I bring it up mostly because there are new reviews on these bikes. And I just can't believe it. I mean they're local. And I'd love to support them, but just can't justify it.

Are you new to this thread?

You seem extra surly lately. Maybe you should buy a Surly brand bike. Would probably make you happier

Been riding "for real" since 1993. GT Karakoram w/ Rock Shox Mag 10, Shimano LX. And it wasn't over $2K. Brand new. I mowed a ton of lawns to pay for that bike.

 

[Gary]

And I bring it up mostly because there are new reviews on these bikes. And I just can't believe it. I mean they're local. And I'd love to support them, but just can't justify it.

Yeah. fair enough.
My point was simply that pricing in cycling has always been mental. Especially for more niche brands.
At the end of the day no one is making any of us buy the most expensive bikes/components/accessories/clothing. Have you thought about popping into YETI and asking if they want their lawn mowed?

This thread became the place for bitter old men to moan about the price of things they were never going to buy anyway a long time ago. Very little of that IMO is "what's actually wrong with the industry".

 

[Gary]

Been riding "for real" mtb since 1993. GT Karakoram w/ Rock Shox Mag 10, Shimano LX. And it wasn't over $2K. Brand new. I mowed a ton of lawns to pay for that bike.

mine was a Raleigh with full Reynolds 531 frame, rigid fork and 21 spd Deore II groupset back in 1990. would have retailed at around £900.

Maybe you should buy a Surly brand bike. Would probably make you happier

Surly's frames are pretty poor quality in comparison to that old Raleigh and cost 3 times the price today. Which sounds about right taking inflation into account. I've actually ridden a lot of Surly's (none mine) but the sort of riding their bikes are designed for is the polar opposite of everything I enjoy about riding a bike. I allso met the guys who own Surly through a mad Surly fanboi friend who'd invited them over to ride fatbikes on our beautiful local beaches. Didn't do any riding with them just splaffing with them in a local pub. The night was far from Surly.

 

[SylentK]

Have you thought about popping into YETI and asking if they want their lawn mowed?

This thread became the place for bitter old men to moan about the price of things they were never going to buy anyway a long time ago. Very little of that IMO is "what's actually wrong with the industry".

Mowing Yeti's lawn. That made me LOL. If it gave me free frames! I'd give up my IT job for that! Maybe. Would still need a hook up to buy all the parts. Have to ask the wife first

I kind of always wanted a Surly Karate Monkey. But I have an SC Chameleon. So no.

 

[StiHacka]

We need a new thread.

 

[toodles]

Yeah. fair enough.
My point was simply that pricing in cycling has always been mental. Especially for more niche brands.

I'm pretty sure the COVID demand meant a lot of companies could price stuff at whatever they wanted and it would still sell, and as things returned to normal some board member simply said "lets just keep upping the ante until we find the point people stop buying shit"

And they're still gonna sell out of everything at whatever ridiculous asking price they put on them. A bunch of us will whinge and buy better value bikes, and a bunch of more wealthy people will buy the stupid expensive shit and justify it with some wank about build quality or reliability or whatever.

 

[Gary]

I'm pretty sure the COVID demand meant a lot of companies could price stuff at whatever they wanted and it would still sell, and as things returned to normal some board member simply said "lets just keep upping the ante until we find the point people stop buying shit"

100% nope Mr C

If anything. Over here Covid and Brexit caused profit margins on bikes and components to drop. Business was good because of increased demand rather than price increases.

Dunno about in Auz but here a large number of reasonably well off people were introduced (or re-intoduced or parents introduced by proxy) to cycling over the height of the pandemic and lock downs. a lot of them noobs who simply accepted the price of their new hobby.

 

[toodles]

Here everything was selling at full ticket prices, often before it was even assembled by the shop. Shops were actually competing with each other to get what limited stock was available. Second hand stuff shot up in value and prices increased due to shipping cost increases (although that hasn't really rolled back now that shipping is back to nearly normal).

Actually pretty impressed that a couple of companies have rolled prices back a bit - YT and Commencal I believe.

 

[Gary]

bike shops here always sell at full RRP. it's the online shops like CRC etc. that give the punters the idea that shops are overpriced when nothing could be further from the truth in a bricks and mortar highstreet bike shop. CRC for example sell a lot of stuff at lower than trade prices even if a shop is on the highest margin teir.
Local shops did struggle with supply but many helped each other out whenever possible.
YT, Canyon and Commencal would have been struggling to sell as many bikes in the UK due to the Brexit fiasco reducing savings over other brands.
apparently new import tax legislation for bikes is about to happen which may sort out EU bike pricing in the UK again

 

[Toshi]

My gripe about Surly is that they discontinued the Big Easy. That was a fine riding e-cargo bike. Now they have some weird mid-long option that doesn’t seem sturdy enough to cart multiple kids.

My first bike was a 1990 Proflex 550. About $1200 iirc, which is $2736 in today dollars. Should have pushed for the Trek instead with a sweet in retrospect Deore group with their high quality indexed thumb shifters.

 

[Gary]

I wouldn't trust Surly at all if you're be considering carrying anything precious.

1990 Proflex 550

Was that the one with rear suspension and a flex stem?
mind you those old undamped trek beam suspension frames were possibly worse.

remembering just how good we had it back then puts quite a different view on all the little non issues cunts are moaning about today

 

[Toshi]

I wouldn't trust Surly at all if you're be considering carrying anything precious.
Was that the one with rear suspension and a flex stem?
mind you those old undamped trek beam suspension frames were possibly worse.

remembering just how good we had it back then puts quite a different view on all the little non issues cunts are moaning about today

yup. Rigid fork (that I bent, replaced with a Quadra 10), elastomers in the flexstem and in the rear later upgraded with fancy microcellular elastomers (oooooh). Pre V brake era as that was 1995 or 1996 XTR iirc. Lots and lots of side to side flex.

The Trek wasn’t one of those 9000 beam fs deals that predated the horrid OCLV and Y bike era but a straight up fully rigid bike.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. I've ridden one of those Proflexs and all the Treks from BITD.
I'm that friend who you'll look up to see smiling back while riding your bike rather than hanging about waiting.
I might not even know your name.

 

[Westy]

Yeah. YOU probably know way better than Bernard's coach as to what he needs


Have you even ridden one?

No one's buying a £10k Pivot Eeb just because they saw Bernard Kerr send his local bike park's quad jump to flat on his.

very few 50yr old's are buying them off the back of seeing Pro DHers sending them. But plenty young guys who already send are realising how much more fun they are than wasting most of your day plodding up thousands of feet in a stupidly low gear on an Enduro bike.

Yep I have ridden one. When I returned it to the guy I borrowed it from he grinned and said I was going to want one now. I answered with an emphatic no. Spent my day plodding up several thousand feet of mountains today. Didn't realize I was wasting my time, didn't get that memo, I though I was having fun. Turns out I actually enjoy riding my bike, seeing how jaded all the posts in this forum have become I feel like that may be a rare thing.

 

[Toshi]

I very much enjoy riding my e-bike in the front range

 

[rideit]

I like riding bikes.
Period.

 

[StiHacka]

I like lamp.

 

[HardtailHack]

mine was a Raleigh with full Reynolds 531 frame, rigid fork and 21 spd Deore II groupset back in 1990. would have retailed at around £900.
Surly's frames are pretty poor quality in comparison to that old Raleigh and cost 3 times the price today. Which sounds about right taking inflation into account. I've actually ridden a lot of Surly's (none mine) but the sort of riding their bikes are designed for is the polar opposite of everything I enjoy about riding a bike. I allso met the guys who own Surly through a mad Surly fanboi friend who'd invited them over to ride fatbikes on our beautiful local beaches. Didn't do any riding with them just splaffing with them in a local pub. The night was far from Surly.

I was looking at Surly frames a while back because they had finally made something with almost modern geo.
But I didn't want to attract merino Jersey wearing weirdos, some of the steel is real people are really fucking annoying!

 

[rideit]

 

[buckoW]

Thanks to this thread, I’m now 100% sure I don’t do anything right.

 

[Westy]

Thanks to this thread, I’m now 100% sure I don’t do anything right.

Pretty sure you are the only one doing it right.

And I may hate you for it.

 

[sethimus]

I'm pretty sure the COVID demand meant a lot of companies could price stuff at whatever they wanted and it would still sell, and as things returned to normal some board member simply said "lets just keep upping the ante until we find the point people stop buying shit"

trek just lowered their prices

 

[aaronjb]

E-bikes (better called "mopeds") are probably lots of fun. I believe that wholeheartedly. But they aren't bicycles. My best local trails are on a mountain that's an hour climb to the top with some pushing, or alternatively up a steep granite face that I haven't been able to ride for 15 years, even going criss-cross. If I ever get one of these contraptions for routes like that, I'm sure as shucks not going to tell people I pedaled a bike up the hill, since I can't currently ride up it at all. You wouldn't tell people you pedaled up the hill after doing lift laps at the local bike park, nor would you tell anyone that the engine in your car is just supplementing the energy you're outputting when pushing down the accelerator. The ebike motors and batteries are advancing quickly technologically, and the "the motor just supplements" argument will sound absurd in a few short years.

We're a gullible bunch, cyclists. Those of us who've been riding for a few decades are middle aged, have disposable income and our feeble bodies can't do the things they used to, and since the industry has made $8,000 bikes the standard, then why not just get the $8,000 bike that helps go uphill quicker?

I ride mostly on suburban-adjacent trails that are shared use and e-bikes are already causing significant friction with the land trusts and landowners who allow access. The louder that you shout that these are "just bikes", the more regulatory and access issues we'll have down the road as the power output increases, and as the motor assist bikes become indistinguishable from "legacy" bicycles.

The refrain and lobbying from the bicycle industry's marketing of e-bikes as bikes will backfire. And let's not get started on the sustainability and sourcing issues with the batteries.

You able-bodied goobs with a need for uphill speed and "m0ar lapZ" are going to ruin it for people like my daughter, who lives with a significant physical disability and who could benefit from an e-bike for genuine accessibility and adaptive purposes, if you keep insisting that bikes with (currently, mind you) a few hundred watts of additional power output are no different than the Ritchey hardtail you bought in 1991.

 

[StiHacka]

... but I want to ride with my bros!11!!!!!1!! ...

 

[norbar]

E-bikes (better called "mopeds") are probably lots of fun. I believe that wholeheartedly. But they aren't bicycles. My best local trails are on a mountain that's an hour climb to the top with some pushing, or alternatively up a steep granite face that I haven't been able to ride for 15 years, even going criss-cross. If I ever get one of these contraptions for routes like that, I'm sure as shucks not going to tell people I pedaled a bike up the hill, since I can't currently ride up it at all. You wouldn't tell people you pedaled up the hill after doing lift laps at the local bike park, nor would you tell anyone that the engine in your car is just supplementing the energy you're outputting when pushing down the accelerator. The ebike motors and batteries are advancing quickly technologically, and the "the motor just supplements" argument will sound absurd in a few short years.

We're a gullible bunch, cyclists. Those of us who've been riding for a few decades are middle aged, have disposable income and our feeble bodies can't do the things they used to, and since the industry has made $8,000 bikes the standard, then why not just get the $8,000 bike that helps go uphill quicker?

I ride mostly on suburban-adjacent trails that are shared use and e-bikes are already causing significant friction with the land trusts and landowners who allow access. The louder that you shout that these are "just bikes", the more regulatory and access issues we'll have down the road as the power output increases, and as the motor assist bikes become indistinguishable from "legacy" bicycles.

The refrain and lobbying from the bicycle industry's marketing of e-bikes as bikes will backfire. And let's not get started on the sustainability and sourcing issues with the batteries.

You able-bodied goobs with a need for uphill speed and "m0ar lapZ" are going to ruin it for people like my daughter, who lives with a significant physical disability and who could benefit from an e-bike for genuine accessibility and adaptive purposes, if you keep insisting that bikes with (currently, mind you) a few hundred watts of additional power output are no different than the Ritchey hardtail you bought in 1991.

So what exactly are the issues caused by e-bikers that are caused by them having this bike and not a different bike and how do you think not calling them e-bikes would change that? Since it sure as hell seems to me that either trails will get closed or they won't. Regulatory nuance is rare and it seems like going on a bike equivalent of "vegan milk is not milk" won't change that?

I'm 100% for talking about batteries being problematic for the environment but I don't get what bitching how we call assisted pedally thingys really changes our situation.

Also regarding people who really need an e-bike. All the dentists buying e-bikes are the only reason the prices for those will keep going down and why there is choice. While I feel for people with disabilities (and I have people in my family buying ebikes for that reason) they are too niche of a market to make ebikes something our silly industry will care about.

 

[slyfink]

So what exactly are the issues caused by e-bikers that are caused by them having this bike and not a different bike and how do you think not calling them e-bikes would change that? Since it sure as hell seems to me that either trails will get closed or they won't. Regulatory nuance is rare and it seems like going on a bike equivalent of "vegan milk is not milk" won't change that?

I'm 100% for talking about batteries being problematic for the environment but I don't get what bitching how we call assisted pedally thingys really changes our situation.

Also regarding people who really need an e-bike. All the dentists buying e-bikes are the only reason the prices for those will keep going down and why there is choice. While I feel for people with disabilities (and I have people in my family buying ebikes for that reason) they are too niche of a market to make ebikes something our silly industry will care about.

finally, a question worth answering. it has been our experience where I am located (Ontario/Quebec in northeast North America) that all attempts to ban cyclists from trails on public land are caused by negative interactions with other users (i.e. walkers). usually walkers are just against sharing "their" space with anyone else, and don't want their experience to change in any way. fuck them I say. but, there are some instances, where speed and inability to slow down can cause problems. so it's worth trying to limit those negative interactions (both with education and rules). there are also enough trails around here that we can segregate user groups and assign some trails to each. it kinda sucks that I can't ride where I want whenever I want, but if there's still enough good places to ride, and the hikers are happy with what they have, then we have reached somewhat of an equilibrium.

but trying to minimize negative interactions is crucial. we have reached somewhat of a balance here now. But mopeds are changing that balance. for one, they can ride faster on more difficult terrain, and they can access more remote terrain. as a result, around here (and in many places throughout North America I suspect) they are causing negative interactions with other user groups - mostly hikers, but also equestrians and non-motorized bikers. these negative interactions include the aforementioned tire buzzers, but also the people who refuse to yield when the should (uphill vs downhill) and just plain going too fast. my experience with e-bikers on our trails has been:

• one older fellow that I let by on a climb, but couldn't ride DH worth shit, yet wouldn't let me pass on the descent. I had to take a break to let him ride ahead so I could still enjoy my descent. Why is that on me? I let him pass on the climb, why wouldn't he let me pass on the descent? I was on a 'lunch ride' and didn't have much spare time.
• I once stopped to take a picture with my son at a picturesque section of trail. we were encroaching on the trail a bit (totally my bad), but it wouldn't be a problem for hikers or other non-motor assisted bikers because it's a slow section and they could get around. this douche in full body armour rips past us going at least 15mph in full boost. we could hear the motor assist well before he arrived, but still had to jump out of the way to avoid getting smoked. nary a "good day" or "have a good ride" came out of his mouth. kinda crummy.
• I've graduated to intermediate trails with my youngest now, but he still struggles in rock gardens with his 24" wheels - they tend to drop into the holes more than 29r.... I've lost track of how many times he's been buzzed, forced to pull over, or stepped off his bike because some douche on a e-bike can't fucking wait 30 seconds, or slow down a bit till is safe (or even polite) to pass. Almost all other interactions with non-motor assisted bikers is the opposite: lots of cheering and encouragement for making it up and over the challenging stuff.

So yeah, that's just my experience. I think that if we can find a way to minimize those conflict points, then there would be no issue and everyone could go about their merry way. but I'm skeptical. I think the speed inherent to ebikes is the main cause of the conflicts that arise. I'm just not sure it's an activity that is compatible with the majority of trails and the other users in this area...

I can see how it may be different elsewhere (the Alps and Scotland, and to some extend trails out west), but here, with the density of users we have? it's going to get worse before it gets better. but I'm also trying to keep an open mind... I promise, I really am. scouts honour.