[StiHacka]

On my local suburban busy trails, I've run a couple of times in a 20-something YO douchebag who is an excellent rider, but who also uses the power of his e-moped to cut his own trails and lines off the well established ones, and whose etiquette towards other riders is non-existent at best. It's quite typical, there are no more than 20 miles of singletrack in this place, and the only ebike riders I encounter are either total newbs (those helmetless are my fav ones), or middle-aged assholes who need to get moar laps in.

 

[FlipFantasia]

I can go down the street and buy a Giant for way less. or even drive a bit to have a custom Shannd built for less than that. All quality bikes

I've got no love for Yeti's, but I'd debate the quality aspect re Giant... you and norbar questioning my SCB, but it's been rock solid for 4 years, in the 4 years prior to my Bronson on a Reign I went through 3 fucking frames, one shock mount crack, two at seatmast/seat tube junction...so, while cheaper, it was pretty shit quality.

 

[Gary]

Giant are still the only carbon road bike frames I trust. Even though other brands may now have caught up.
Don't remember their more gravity orientated mtb frames ever being the most reliable. But STPs and OCRs were absolutely bombproof without weighing tons. So yeah. Durability all over the place.

The two guys I ride with who have Yetis have been through 5 frames between them over the past couple of years.
Shit happens, eh?

 

[toodles]

Thanks to this thread, I’m now 100% sure I don’t do anything right.

Oh sure, whenever I tell comment on your hairstyle or moustache to say that you dismiss me, but when this thread says it you listen.

Yep I have ridden one. When I returned it to the guy I borrowed it from he grinned and said I was going to want one now.

The anti-ebike noise and the "you need an ebike" pro-ebike noise are just as bad.

The two guys I ride with who have Yetis have been through 5 frames between them over the past couple of years.
Shit happens, eh?

Not sure about your mates, but the dudes I know that snapped their Yetis had so much bullshit to go through to get replacements. At least Giant over here are super painless for warranty replacements. Weird, cos you'd expect that dropping that much coin on a Yeti would afford you the luxury of a "no-questions-asked" silver service for any disputes or problems but the opposite seems to be true.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. I think it was a bit of a chore and eventually they were asked to saw the broken frames in half and send pics to prove they had done so before receiving replacements. sawing carbon = fun times, eh?
Yeah Giant seems to be super painless and quick on the ball with warranty here too. Spesh are too. Nukeproof are pretty good for a fairly small brand BTW.

 

[OGRipper]

Not that it will stop anyone here from judging, but a handful of bad experiences with lame people does not justify condemning an entire group. If that were the case, the bad experiences we've all had with jerks on regular bikes would mean no mountain bikers deserve to exist.

Anyway, boo e-bikes, amirite?

 

[canadmos]

Fuck horses!

 

[aaronjb]

So what exactly are the issues caused by e-bikers that are caused by them having this bike and not a different bike and how do you think not calling them e-bikes would change that? Since it sure as hell seems to me that either trails will get closed or they won't. Regulatory nuance is rare and it seems like going on a bike equivalent of "vegan milk is not milk" won't change that?

I'm 100% for talking about batteries being problematic for the environment but I don't get what bitching how we call assisted pedally thingys really changes our situation.

Also regarding people who really need an e-bike. All the dentists buying e-bikes are the only reason the prices for those will keep going down and why there is choice. While I feel for people with disabilities (and I have people in my family buying ebikes for that reason) they are too niche of a market to make ebikes something our silly industry will care about.

The technical trails in my area were largely shared-used trails with hikers, and the speeds that can be acheived on the eebs just isn't suitable for the terrain, for reasons of congestion and other mixed-use challenges that have been represented in this thread. We've largely avoided the IMBA-fication that's plagued the rest of the country, so Johnny E-Bike ripping up the rocky, rooty singletrack is problematic.

I posit that the general public doesn't care whether a bike is a Suron or pedal-assist. As soon as it's got a motor, the boards who run the land trusts around here lose their collective beans. A big trail network got shut down in the first week of the pandemic, which goes to show that they're just looking for a reason to keep bikes off trails (never mind that many of the trails were originally cut in the early 90s by mountain bikers). If there's a rare bird nesting in a 20-miles radius the avian aficionados will have entire swaths of trail taped off.

finally, a question worth answering. it has been our experience where I am located (Ontario/Quebec in northeast North America) that all attempts to ban cyclists from trails on public land are caused by negative interactions with other users (i.e. walkers). usually walkers are just against sharing "their" space with anyone else, and don't want their experience to change in any way. fuck them I say. but, there are some instances, where speed and inability to slow down can cause problems. so it's worth trying to limit those negative interactions (both with education and rules). there are also enough trails around here that we can segregate user groups and assign some trails to each. it kinda sucks that I can't ride where I want whenever I want, but if there's still enough good places to ride, and the hikers are happy with what they have, then we have reached somewhat of an equilibrium.

<snipping the rest to keep the thread a bit cleaner>

You cover many of the additional points that I would have replied with. Bottom line is that we're arguing with the boomers, who aren't known to be deep critical thinkers.

Fuck horses!

What you do on your own time is between you, the livestock, and the stablehands.

 

[SylentK]

I want moar lamp!

 

[Gary]

Fuck horses!

If that's your persuasion. and your country allows it. who are we to stop you.

 

[Gary]

the speeds that can be acheived on the eebs just isn't suitable for the terrain

12-15 mph on a climb? They don't achieve faster speeds than a normal bike anywhere else.

I posit that the general public doesn't care whether a bike is a Suron or pedal-assist.

You think? or did you just mean in the US?

 

[canadmos]

See we're not all judgy, you'd all let me fuck a horse.

God damn horses.

 

[Gary]

You seen the size of a horses cock?
I doubt the horse would even know what you were doing up that ladder behind her.

 

[canadmos]

Her?

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Amazon takes heat for selling devices to hot-rod electric bikes for more speed

Amazon is taking heat for selling a number of devices on its platform that can be used to remove the speed limit on electric bicycles.

electrek.co

 

[Gary]

How disrespectful of horse gender.
sorry.
THEY/THEM

 

[Gary]

Amazon takes heat for selling devices to hot-rod electric bikes for more speed

Amazon is taking heat for selling a number of devices on its platform that can be used to remove the speed limit on electric bicycles.

electrek.co

De-restriction just stops the motor from cutting assistance at the limit (20mph US/15.5 UK/EU) Even derestricted you still have to pedal the thing. with a max of 700w assistance you aren't gonna be doing more than 15mph for more than a few seconds up anything even vagualy steep or low grip.
trust me

the 15.5mph limit here is actually stupid. The article you linked agrees

 

[norbar]

The technical trails in my area were largely shared-used trails with hikers, and the speeds that can be acheived on the eebs just isn't suitable for the terrain, for reasons of congestion and other mixed-use challenges that have been represented in this thread. We've largely avoided the IMBA-fication that's plagued the rest of the country, so Johnny E-Bike ripping up the rocky, rooty singletrack is problematic.

I posit that the general public doesn't care whether a bike is a Suron or pedal-assist. As soon as it's got a motor, the boards who run the land trusts around here lose their collective beans. A big trail network got shut down in the first week of the pandemic, which goes to show that they're just looking for a reason to keep bikes off trails (never mind that many of the trails were originally cut in the early 90s by mountain bikers). If there's a rare bird nesting in a 20-miles radius the avian aficionados will have entire swaths of trail taped off.

Can't we just limit pedal asist to lower speeds? Since the idea is the bikes should make climbs EASIER not faster. At least for most people.

Though I have to say it really did seem like someone was looking for an excuse to ban bikes.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Can't we just limit pedal asist to lower speeds? Since the idea is the bikes should make climbs EASIER not faster. At least for most people.

Though I have to say it really did seem like someone was looking for an excuse to ban bikes.

There are loads of people who would ban bikes. I'm fighting it now with regard to some trails that I have been maintaining for more than two decades.

This 1,500 or so acres a couple of miles from my house. People using Strava ain't helping.

 

[norbar]

finally, a question worth answering. it has been our experience where I am located (Ontario/Quebec in northeast North America) that all attempts to ban cyclists from trails on public land are caused by negative interactions with other users (i.e. walkers). usually walkers are just against sharing "their" space with anyone else, and don't want their experience to change in any way. fuck them I say. but, there are some instances, where speed and inability to slow down can cause problems. so it's worth trying to limit those negative interactions (both with education and rules). there are also enough trails around here that we can segregate user groups and assign some trails to each. it kinda sucks that I can't ride where I want whenever I want, but if there's still enough good places to ride, and the hikers are happy with what they have, then we have reached somewhat of an equilibrium.

but trying to minimize negative interactions is crucial. we have reached somewhat of a balance here now. But mopeds are changing that balance. for one, they can ride faster on more difficult terrain, and they can access more remote terrain. as a result, around here (and in many places throughout North America I suspect) they are causing negative interactions with other user groups - mostly hikers, but also equestrians and non-motorized bikers. these negative interactions include the aforementioned tire buzzers, but also the people who refuse to yield when the should (uphill vs downhill) and just plain going too fast. my experience with e-bikers on our trails has been:

• one older fellow that I let by on a climb, but couldn't ride DH worth shit, yet wouldn't let me pass on the descent. I had to take a break to let him ride ahead so I could still enjoy my descent. Why is that on me? I let him pass on the climb, why wouldn't he let me pass on the descent? I was on a 'lunch ride' and didn't have much spare time.
• I once stopped to take a picture with my son at a picturesque section of trail. we were encroaching on the trail a bit (totally my bad), but it wouldn't be a problem for hikers or other non-motor assisted bikers because it's a slow section and they could get around. this douche in full body armour rips past us going at least 15mph in full boost. we could hear the motor assist well before he arrived, but still had to jump out of the way to avoid getting smoked. nary a "good day" or "have a good ride" came out of his mouth. kinda crummy.
• I've graduated to intermediate trails with my youngest now, but he still struggles in rock gardens with his 24" wheels - they tend to drop into the holes more than 29r.... I've lost track of how many times he's been buzzed, forced to pull over, or stepped off his bike because some douche on a e-bike can't fucking wait 30 seconds, or slow down a bit till is safe (or even polite) to pass. Almost all other interactions with non-motor assisted bikers is the opposite: lots of cheering and encouragement for making it up and over the challenging stuff.

So yeah, that's just my experience. I think that if we can find a way to minimize those conflict points, then there would be no issue and everyone could go about their merry way. but I'm skeptical. I think the speed inherent to ebikes is the main cause of the conflicts that arise. I'm just not sure it's an activity that is compatible with the majority of trails and the other users in this area...

I can see how it may be different elsewhere (the Alps and Scotland, and to some extend trails out west), but here, with the density of users we have? it's going to get worse before it gets better. but I'm also trying to keep an open mind... I promise, I really am. scouts honour.

I really need to ask my friend about situations like you mention as Polish mountains are super crowded (Poles tend to stay in Poland instead of going abroad) and he lives in a town that's while now bike friendly was super hostile to bikers even 6 years ago (steel lines at neck height... though that may have been aimed at moto bros too).

I see the problem though imho what you are describing is more new people getting into a sport that's growing too fast to enforce behavior norms. Kinda the same what happened with snowboard in the weird time after it became legal to ride on most slopes but before the time instructing was structured so people were self thought and were doing dumb shit annoying everyone (I say this as a snowboard instructor)

 

[norbar]

There are loads of people who would ban bikes. I'm fighting it now with regard to some trails that I have been maintaining for more than two decades.

This 1,500 or so acres a couple of miles from my house. People using Strava ain't helping.

Tbh we don't have officially mixed use trails. We have trail networks for bikes only or trails without any designation (hiking trails are not banning bikes if it's not a national park or a reserve) but I wonder would lower max speed on assist would change much or if it's just new people in the sport ruining it for everyone

 

[StiHacka]

lower max speed on assist would change much or if it's just new people in the sport ruining it for everyone

No one would be interested in e-bikes if the max assisted speed was lower than 15mph. See a few posts above.
I get that riding uphill fast is fun, but not when others don't expect you going at 15mph where bikes normally do 5-6 tops; or in places too steep for pedaling.

 

[norbar]

No one would be interested in e-bikes if the max assisted speed was lower than 15mph. See a few posts above.
I get that riding uphill fast is fun, but not when others don't expect you going at 15mph where bikes normally do 5-6 tops; or in places too steep for pedaling.

To be honest 75% if not more people would still buy it. What stopping people from doing more laps is not how fast they get up but that that doing 1500m uphill per day is not possible for many people when you add riding down, especially if you want to enjoy the ride down.
All my mates who own ebikes own them to ride MORE not to ride FASTER uphill. If you want to enjoy uphills you buy a stort travel conventional bikes. People who love uphills hate ebikes.

 

[StiHacka]

All my mates who own ebikes own them to ride MORE not to ride FASTER uphill. If you want to enjoy uphills you buy a stort travel conventional bikes. People who love uphills hate ebikes.

The only way to ride MORE in the same allotted time is to ride FASTER uphill or on flat sections, uphill likely having the biggest impact as most people can attain at least 10-12mph on flats anyway.

 

[norbar]

The only way to ride MORE in the same allotted time is to ride FASTER uphill or on flat sections, uphill likely having the biggest impact as most people can attain at least 10-12mph on flats anyway.

Wait. People use assist on flat sections? And you still talk to those people?

Every E-Bike owner I know has an ebike to go from 5kph uphils that tire you to 8-10 kph uphills that leave you fresh so you can spend 10h riding and have the energy for going down. I'd never get an ebike if my local climbs were all mellow fire roads (well unless I had health issues ofc)

 

[slimshady]

I want moar lamp!

View attachment 185194

Linux, Apache, MySQL and Python?

 

[rideit]

 

[StiHacka]

Linux, Apache, MySQL and Python?

No MongoDB, no love.

 

[slimshady]

View attachment 185203

Seriously, you need a better ad blocker.

 

[Gary]

Since the idea is the bikes should make climbs EASIER not faster. At least for most people.

Most people will climb faster on an ebike even with less effort. It just doesn't make a ton of sense to ruin yourself and use up all your energy climbing when you have a motor unless you are specifically trying to ride up previously unclmbable trails. I think of an Ebike like a FFWD for all the shit parts of riding. eg. the monotony of climbs you've done many times before or the trudgery of slow riding though soft wet condition. Apparently some folk find these fun. They're also awesome for getting you and some tools to remote trails to do a bit of maintenance work.

Once most Emtb owners get properly accustomed to their motor I find they generally tend not to boost everywhere every ride in the highest mode as fast as possible as it reduces battery range tons. If you're short of time. sure it probably makes more sense to Boost/Turbo up ALL the climbs so you can get to and ride as many descents in the shortest time. But it's really easy to do that and not to be a dick about it.

 

[Gary]

Wait. People use assist on flat sections?

A 50lb+ bike with draggy agressive tread DH casing soft compound tyres is pretty horrible on the flat so yeah Eco does makes them feel a lot closer to riding a lighter bike with faster rolling tyres without using much battery. the issue then is it's easy AF to get to the dumb EU limit so you have the choice of sititng at 15mph or riding at 17 unassisted. If you're a good rule bound citizen anyway.
I also think most folks modern Enduro bikes are too heavy and draggy to be much fun on the flat too BTW

 

[buckoW]

Wait. People use assist on flat sections? And you still talk to those people?

Every E-Bike owner I know has an ebike to go from 5kph uphils that tire you to 8-10 kph uphills that leave you fresh so you can spend 10h riding and have the energy for going down. I'd never get an ebike if my local climbs were all mellow fire roads (well unless I had health issues ofc)

I use Boost everywhere even on the descents.

 

[rideit]

On my e-commuter I have to use full boost to get even remotely close to as fast as I go downhill on normal bikes. And that bike has assist up to about 32 mph...above that, you are killing yourself to pedal much faster unless it's really steep.

 

[sethimus]

Can't we just limit pedal asist to lower speeds? Since the idea is the bikes should make climbs EASIER not faster. At least for most people.

Though I have to say it really did seem like someone was looking for an excuse to ban bikes.

that’s where the sl motors come in. every bike should have one

 

[norbar]

I use Boost everywhere even on the descents.

In which situations do you use it on descends? I feel like a total luddite here

@Gary yeah if you are on super soft DH tires sure. No assist the bike will not roll like garbage but I am 100% people tend to for too heavy tires on their enduro (and trail!!!). Sure if you are going to some trails around where Ben lives and generally go for something really fast where you need thick sidewalls it makes sense but not all trails require it. Even when I was spending my time pretending I can race DH I was using lighter tires on mellower trails. On my fun backbreaking trip my mate noticed he was rolling way slower and I was catching up to him despite him being a faster rider

Regarding the 15mph limit. I don't think it's that bad. When I'm riding to the trails I don't want to get tired so I'm riding at a mellow 19-20kph. I think I'd gain more time going up 10-15kph on the uphills vs 5-8 but I get not all trails have technical uphills so the extra speed makes more sense on those. Still the extra speed on non fire roads creates problems some people mentioned above so it's seems like a problem where no matter what you chose someone will be left unhappy.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. It's probably fine if you don't mind paying £6k+ for a bike with a motor and riding slower than a normal bike.

TRAIL mode gives the best compromise of power and control/grip when descending IMO. But only really useful for gaining speed out of tighter turns if you're a slave to the law.

Not sure the sort of punter to deliberate for months to choose a bike then weeks to fit plastic film to it before actually riding the thing need worry TBH.

 

[Gary]

You probably greatly underestimate the skill and fitness of the many Emtb owners. A lot choose the absolute gripiest tyres possible to give them confidence even on what you and I might describe as mediocre/beginner trails. And many will choose DH casings AND inserts because after their first sidewall cut the thought of pushing a 26kg bike with a puncture is unbearable

 

[6thElement]

In which situations do you use it on descends? I feel like a total luddite here

He's taking the piss (joking).

 

[Toshi]

you need thick sidewalls it makes sense but not all trails require it

Me + Colorado rox + riding style + fatness == I need DD casings or greater in the rear. Otherwise slicey slicey.

He's taking the piss (joking).

Assist is nice to pop out of slow turns. I generally ride in Trail mode all the time, though. Feels the most natural, if you will.

 

[jonKranked]

That happened to me as well in Left Hand Canyon.
Dude buzzed my tire twice while we were climbing.
And the crazy thing was that it was on double track, he could have passed.
Total dick move, and it put me off ebikes for a good while.
I totally understand why people don’t want them mixing with regular bikes on crowded front country trails as a result of shit like that.

some guy nearly buzzed me on a climb once, he was on an ebike (I did let him pass when i had a spot to safely pull off). i returned the favor on the descent. when he got all pissy with me i reminded him of his shenanigans on the climb and he promptly shut the fuck up.