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This is what's wrong with The Industry™

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,636
1,096
NORCAL is the hizzle
I was a diehard shimano fan for a long time, but they lost me on drivetrains when 1X arrived, and they fell even further back when AXS was released (which I like, but nobody really needs). I still prefer the feel of shimano brakes over SRAM brakes. Drivetrains in general are so good these days we're talking marginal differences at most. I'd be wiling to try XT or XTR full kit on a future rig, but probably mechanical.
 

Toshi

Harbinger of Doom
Oct 23, 2001
37,750
7,387
the bite point does wander a bit, but overall I'm very happy with my 11 speed XT Di2 + 4 piston brake setup. no ragrets
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
19,913
18,776
Canaderp
I loved Shimano brakes, but it gets tiresome having to constantly bleed them, replace a lever here, replace a lever there...etc etc. Oh no the calipers leaked? No probs, lets drop another $85 on pads.

Switching to Hayes Dominions have been amazing. The same power and grabbing feeling of Shimano (I mean just get someone who has Sram brakes to try them, tell them to really grab them...lol), but with none of the "oh shit the levers are suddenly on the bars and i'm pooing myself" moments. I dragged and used the absolute hell out of the Dominions on the 5000 foot descent on Martha Creek, they were howling for me to let go. But they didn't fade at all and no goofiness.
 
Aug 27, 2023
63
67
Canton, Georgia
(like... wandering bite point issue has been around for how long - 10 years?)
Is this really a design issue, or bleeding issue? I have certainly read plenty about it, but never experienced it. However, I do burp my brakes on the regular.

So after some digging, it looks like I can direct mount a Deore 5100 series mech that will work with my existing XT shifter and cassette.
Why there is no SLX/XT option, no clue (unless you switch over to Link Glide)

New mech on the way
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,367
783
I am very much on the SRAM program, but it has nothing to do with brand loyalty (except maybe for suspensions). I've had Shimano drivetrain and brakes in the past, which I liked, but now my fleet has reached a critical point where going for other brands would reduce the cross-compatibility between my bikes and I don't really want to go there if there is no real benefit.
- I like having only 1 type of drivers for all my bikes (XD)
- SRAM brakes are not particularly exciting, but they've been reliable for me, are easy to bleed and I find the power adequate, so I tend to stick to them.
- Top level RockShox forks and shocks are less expensive than other options and I like their performance. I can accept that Fox Factory are possibly better, but I am still mad at them for the garbage damping tune they put in the 2013 Float34 Factory CTD or whatever-it-was-called. It should have been a recall, but they decided the customers had to pay to fix it.
- I like XT crankset with OneUp Switch DM spider. SRAM cranks are alright and I like their 3 bolts DM interface, but the 54N-m bolt is often a pain to get out and I am not a fan of the SRAM plastic preload ring. I find the Shimano cranksets are just better, so that's what I use.
 
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Aug 27, 2023
63
67
Canton, Georgia
I have only used Shimano drivetrains since that is what I knew, and (to me) represent the best combination of price, quality, and availability. I would have no issue with trying SRAM, but I wouldn’t even know what products are comparable to XT stuff.

The 5100 derailleur was $39. My XT cranks were $140, BBs are $20, and so on. I just don’t see value in other comparable products that cost 2-3 times as much.

I run Magura MT calipers with Shimano levers. Magura levers are fragile, hard to find, and outrageously expensive. I tend to break things, so being able to quickly & cheaply source levers makes a difference to me. And lastly, I don’t want to mess with DOT for bike brakes.

Currently running all Fox suspension, but if I go coil, it will be a RS SDU. I am sure seeing a RS coil and Fox fork on the same bike will get all the bike park fan bois all frothy :D
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,367
783
On Shimano vs SRAM drivetrains, it seems Shimano is the clear winner for their low-budget offers, but SRAM probably has an edge for high-end stuff.

SRAM: SX is garbage, NX is meh, GX is OK and X01/XX1/T-type is great (but expensive).
Shimano: Not even sure how low you'd need to go to have something comparable to SX or NX. I don't have experience myself, but it seems everybody raves about the cost/performance ratio of Shimano's low-end stuff.
 

FlipSide

Turbo Monkey
Sep 24, 2001
1,367
783
I have only used Shimano drivetrains since that is what I knew, and (to me) represent the best combination of price, quality, and availability. I would have no issue with trying SRAM, but I wouldn’t even know what products are comparable to XT stuff.
A few years ago, you could consider XT to fall pretty much between GX and X01. I assume it's probably still the case these days.

If I ran Shimano, I'd buy XT.

I have no problem using GX if that's what comes on a complete bike, but I'll go for X01 on a custom build or if I have to replace broken GX stuff.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,749
9,472
AK
On Shimano vs SRAM drivetrains, it seems Shimano is the clear winner for their low-budget offers, but SRAM probably has an edge for high-end stuff.

SRAM: SX is garbage, NX is meh, GX is OK and X01/XX1/T-type is great (but expensive).
Shimano: Not even sure how low you'd need to go to have something comparable to SX or NX. I don't have experience myself, but it seems everybody raves about the cost/performance ratio of Shimano's low-end stuff.
I won't add too much to the same conversation that's been said over and over, but I think one point besides the lower end SRAM stuff being lower than the Shimano, it's not a 1:1 relationship either. People tended to think that GX, XO and XX should be SLX, XT and XTR, whereas X0 and XX are more like 95% similar, not just in function, but actual parts, whereas the XT is always a different base design than the XTR, so the X0 and XX are a lot closer than XT and XTR are. GX is a decent offering...but more like the SLX level...and it just goes down from there.
 

Andeh

Customer Title
Mar 3, 2020
976
960
The big difference between the SRAM/Shimano drivetrain comparisons is that (IME), XTR is basically designed to be uber light racer weight weenie stuff made out of cheese, whereas XT is the true performance/workhorse version. The difference between X0 & XX is mostly about a few grams, a lot of dollars, and not much difference in durability (unless you count silly carbon derailleur cages). SLX & GX have a lot of the same compromises (missing some non-essential features like multi-shift, heavier stamped components).
 

rideit

Bob the Builder
Aug 24, 2004
22,748
11,060
In the cleavage of the Tetons
Interestingly, the latest Gen XTR rear derailluers have proven to be WAY more robust than the XT counterparts. Cranks, chainrings, etc, are equal or better. The only advantage XT has in durability is the cassette these days, and (maybe) the shifter.
The brakes are (basically) identical. (4 pot)
 
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slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
SLX & GX have a lot of the same compromises (missing some non-essential features like multi-shift, heavier stamped components
They catch play a lot faster than their better siblings too. At least the derailleurs do.

My friend who owns a bike shop and built my homemade dirt jumper frame is a Shimano fanboi, and he always says an XT shifter makes a bigger difference than an XT derailleur in the transmission's performance. It's not about the multi-shift feature, but about the ability to release the cable a lot faster than the rest of the family (with exception of XTR, obviously).
 
Aug 27, 2023
63
67
Canton, Georgia
he always says an XT shifter makes a bigger difference than an XT derailleur in the transmission's performance.
Correct! I used the basic Deore mech, and cassette on my daughter’s bike, but with an XT shifter. I could not feel a difference compared to my full XT setup.

I always believed XTR was just a lighter version of the same XT design, but I have seen a few instances where the inner workings are not interchangeable.

SLX is the line I don’t quite understand. The price is closer to XT, but the performance is closer to Deore. Why can’t good (Deore), better (XT), best (XTR) be enough?
 

canadmos

Cake Tease
May 29, 2011
19,913
18,776
Canaderp
Correct! I used the basic Deore mech, and cassette on my daughter’s bike, but with an XT shifter. I could not feel a difference compared to my full XT setup.

I always believed XTR was just a lighter version of the same XT design, but I have seen a few instances where the inner workings are not interchangeable.

SLX is the line I don’t quite understand. The price is closer to XT, but the performance is closer to Deore. Why can’t good (Deore), better (XT), best (XTR) be enough?
It's a trap to spend more money.

Deore is fine, I have a Deore derailleur paired with an XT shifter, on an SLX cassette. Great combo, without it costing a fortune. If I smack the derailleur, it's around or less than $100 to replace.

The one thing that the SLX derailleur has, I think, that Deore doesn't, is tool free clutch adjustment. But who the heck even adjusts that more than once?
 

konifere

Monkey
Dec 20, 2021
477
595
OK I have a Deore M6100, an SLX M7100 and an XT M8100 derailleur. Here’s what’s up:

DERAILLEURS : Deore is almost identical to SLX except it’s got a nicer color IMO (I don’t like the blueish SLX tint). Both have no bearings in their pulleys, both have the plastic part at the knuckle that develops play in, both have non externally adjustable clutch. When I got the SLX the Deore didn’t exist otherwise I would have got the Deore. but I also question the presence of SLX in Shimano’s lineup. The XT M8100 is almost identical to the other two but has bearings in its pulleys. Same aluminum cage as the SLX, same plastic knuckle that will probably develop play. So far it seems to have the least « initial play ». I really doubt there will be any functional difference apart from the pulleys turning more easily, but I got the XT for a great price so we’ll see.

SHIFTERS: I own and use both the Deore and SLX 12 spd. Functionally, they feel identical, visually too, but apparently, looking at the exploded views that I didn’t look at, that there is an inside part (the mechanism, so quite important) that’s weaker on the Deore. I got the SLX as a new take off but if I had to buy a new one, I’d get a Deore unless it was just a few bucks more (I just bought an SLX at 50% off) I’m in the minority who I don’t like the harder feel of the XT shifters.

CASETTES: I just use Deore even if they’re heavier. The biggest aluminium cogs are prone to creaking which I’ve read happen to the XTR, XT and SLX but not on the Deore M6100. Plus it’s all steel cogs so they will last longer (especially the 51t) vs the more expensive ones.

CRANKS: I got the XT before covid because it looked nicer than the SLX and was available in 165mm length. Deore didn’t exist yet, but I’d have gotten that if it was offered in 165mm.

CHAINS: I’ve used SLX and Deore and didn’t see any durability difference yet, but I replace them early. Just got some XTs at 50% off but apparently they’re worth the price hike for durability.

-If one was to min-max it, I’d go Deore everything.
-Durability and functionality is a priority : Deore everything except for SLX shifters that might last longer and XT derailleur with the bearing pulleys. I’ce never been blessed with in there, so that might be totally unnoticeable. I like my M8120 crankset though.
-XTR way too expensive for me to justify for drivetrain parts.

Now going to make a coffee and swap my tire, insert, rotor and cassette from one shitty Deore-hubbed wheel to the other.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,749
9,472
AK
Damn, I had almost forgotten that bullshit about removing a wheel from a shimano derailleur bike without the sram derailleur catch.
 

konifere

Monkey
Dec 20, 2021
477
595
Man this is bonkers if Absolute Black (just writing the entire brand name here for search references) really stalked him and made that website and Linkedin profile. I bought one of their oval rings in 2012 (probably their first year of operation) to try and see what it was about. I still have it on my city bike and every time they come out with a stupider product, I feel badder for giving them my money more than 10 years ago. I'd burn it but it's made of aluminium... or is it?!

Doing something like that is downright stupid, and thinking you'd never get caught or traced back is unbelievable especially coming from a company. Stuff you'd see in high school or elementary school.
 

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,444
369
Correct! I used the basic Deore mech, and cassette on my daughter’s bike, but with an XT shifter. I could not feel a difference compared to my full XT setup.

I always believed XTR was just a lighter version of the same XT design, but I have seen a few instances where the inner workings are not interchangeable.

SLX is the line I don’t quite understand. The price is closer to XT, but the performance is closer to Deore. Why can’t good (Deore), better (XT), best (XTR) be enough?
this is why Hone always made more sense to me than SLX. Hone was supposed to pair with Saint like Deore and XTR - Race level Saint trickling down to weekender level Hone.

SLX seems completely unnecessary, much like LX used to.

Shimano Road has 4 meaningful separations (plus a gravel group set), I’m not sure why mountain needs 5.

To that end I really don’t see how Alivio/ Acera/ Tourney/ Claris etc is cheaper to produce than one single low end group set. I’m glad shimano seems to be replacing that hierarchy.

On a separate note, Shimano naming is easier for me to understand than Srams N/G/GS/X/0/1 system.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,903
19,631
Sleazattle
this is why Hone always made more sense to me than SLX. Hone was supposed to pair with Saint like Deore and XTR - Race level Saint trickling down to weekender level Hone.

SLX seems completely unnecessary, much like LX used to.

Shimano Road has 4 meaningful separations (plus a gravel group set), I’m not sure why mountain needs 5.

To that end I really don’t see how Alivio/ Acera/ Tourney/ Claris etc is cheaper to produce than one single low end group set. I’m glad shimano seems to be replacing that hierarchy.

On a separate note, Shimano naming is easier for me to understand than Srams N/G/GS/X/0/1 system.

Going to guess that Shimano strategy aligns well with worldwide sales tiers and not just focusing on bougie MTB dentists.
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
To that end I really don’t see how Alivio/ Acera/ Tourney/ Claris etc is cheaper to produce than one single low end group set. I’m glad shimano seems to be replacing that hierarchy.
That's where these new sil-tec lower end gruppos make sense. They all share a common chain and chainrings, and only differ in the number of gears.

As for the Tourney saga, I guess Shimano keeps a separate production line just for that, and has it running 24/7 for all the low end/supermarket/city/folding bikes out there, they surely recovered the production costs decades ago.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,411
5,334
UK
XT shifter fans. Do you live in a dry climate?
Here. both XT and Saint shifters ALWAYS end up increasing in resistance over time to the point they end up feelinh horrible and ratchetty on the push stroke. Due to the extra complexity of design. Whereas deore/slx/Zee stay smooth.
It's a complete fallacy that XT and above shifters pull cable more accurately. They all do the exact same thing. XT and above mechs however do stay play free longer so increase shifting performance longevity.

Newer lower end shimano 12spd shifters are noticeably lower quality to older 11 and 10spd variants and exhibit flex in the main body and/or between the body and attachment clamp/mount.

It's almost like shimsno engineered flaws in them on purpose to make the higher end offerings seem better value.

1694863450410.png
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,411
5,334
UK
To that end I really don’t see how Alivio/ Acera/ Tourney/ Claris etc is cheaper to produce than one single low end group set.
SRSLY?
When did you last experience Tourney components first hand?
And you seriously think pressed steel and crude riveting has the same production costs as forged/machined Alu with precision machined pivot hardware?
A Tourney mech will often have mms of play in the shit plates straight from the box.

Claris is basically Tiagra (originally) marketed towards the female contingent. So similar in pricing and performance. Often seen cheaper because of its less masculine roots.
*Shimano haven't ever truely manufactured a road groupset with STIs suitable for smaller hands. I've lost count of the number of women I've helped set up shimano brifters braking so they can actually make their bike stop from the hoods position.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,411
5,334
UK
As for the Tourney saga, I guess Shimano keeps a separate production line just for that, and has it running 24/7 for all the low
Yeah. Clearly.
Tourney outsells any of the stuff we here would consider running ten fold and more.
Bicycle forum contributors generally don't have a fucking clue about real world bicycle sales or the sort of buyer/owner/rider of cheap generic bicycles
 

slimshady

¡Mira, una ardilla!
Bicycle forum contributors generally don't have a fucking clue about real world bicycle sales or the sort of buyer/owner/rider of cheap generic bicycles
Well, living in a third world country with an economy devastated by the pandemic and some horrible government decisions I can say about 95% of the bikes I encounter in my home trails are low end XC 29ers with unbranded mechanical disc brakes and Tourney groupsets -if lucky!, most of them have either unknown Indian components or knock-off Shiamno (and NO! That's not a typo!!) shifters/RDs. About 95% of the folding bikes out there have 7-speed Tourney, and 70% of the urban bikes have Acera and Alivio.

You'll occasionally run into the rich guy here and there riding a Specialized or a Pivot, but the majority of the biking population down here has never heard of XTR or Kashima.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,411
5,334
UK
Tourney groupsets -if lucky!, most of them have either unknown Indian components or knock-off Shiamno (and NO! That's not a typo!!) shifters/RDs. About 95% of the folding bikes out there have 7-speed Tourney, and 70% of the urban bikes have Acera and Alivio.
I fix similar. Weekly
Keeping the normal down to earth punter going a little longer.

Ain't no stuck up fuckwit bicycle snob

Edinburgh can seem pretty third worldly in places.
 

sethimus

neu bizutch
Feb 5, 2006
4,762
2,059
not in Whistler anymore :/
XT shifter fans. Do you live in a dry climate?
Here. both XT and Saint shifters ALWAYS end up increasing in resistance over time to the point they end up feelinh horrible and ratchetty on the push stroke. Due to the extra complexity of design. Whereas deore/slx/Zee stay smooth.
It's a complete fallacy that XT and above shifters pull cable more accurately. They all do the exact same thing. XT and above mechs however do stay play free longer so increase shifting performance longevity.

Newer lower end shimano 12spd shifters are noticeably lower quality to older 11 and 10spd variants and exhibit flex in the main body and/or between the body and attachment clamp/mount.

It's almost like shimsno engineered flaws in them on purpose to make the higher end offerings seem better value.

View attachment 200605
i only ride when the sun shines. usually there is always one sunny place in switzerland
 

trib

not worthy of a Rux.
Jun 22, 2009
1,444
369
SRSLY?
When did you last experience Tourney components first hand?
And you seriously think pressed steel and crude riveting has the same production costs as forged/machined Alu with precision machined pivot hardware?
A Tourney mech will often have mms of play in the shit plates straight from the box.

Claris is basically Tiagra (originally) marketed towards the female contingent. So similar in pricing and performance. Often seen cheaper because of its less masculine roots.
*Shimano haven't ever truely manufactured a road groupset with STIs suitable for smaller hands. I've lost count of the number of women I've helped set up shimano brifters braking so they can actually make their bike stop from the hoods position.
I didn’t know about Claris and Tiagra being Diet Coke and Coke Zero.

And whilst tourney may be shit, it’s shit on purpose, specifically designed to make you want to upgrade. I have an acera drive train on my commuter/errands bike and it’s great for the purpose. Shimano creating shit products on purpose (tourney) is just a bad faith act.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,749
9,472
AK
The multi shift up and down is why I use the XT shifter. SLX (and below) only have on the down.

I am that one nerd who disassembles and cleans/lubes everything once a year. :p
And that multi-shift up takes so much force that it hurts my thumb and I can click off the up-shifts faster on SRAM due to this. IDK why they made it so heavy on XT and XTR...but maybe to prevent mis-shifting the multi-shift, but then that's just introducing another problem to fix a problem. It's self-defeating IME.
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,313
1,547
Warsaw :/
Why would you assume that?

I use strava pretty much every day.

have only had a free account for the past few years since the massive price hikes and only use it as an activity tracker for recording personal stats now (Mainly just for totting up weekly/yearly mileage & ride count). none of my rides are public anymore and I deleted all followers years ago as I began to find the social media aspects of it tedious and intrusive.
Strava could be good fun in the early days with a bunch of competitive mates. But that's all it was.
You just tend to not like following trends and strava kom champions can be annoying. Though I think you are focusing on an off hand comment too much.

Also Sethi is correct. All of RM should send you those weird motivating messages mid ride. Are those still a thing?
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,411
5,334
UK
I didn’t know about Claris and Tiagra being Diet Coke and Coke Zero.

And whilst tourney may be shit, it’s shit on purpose, specifically designed to make you want to upgrade. I have an acera drive train on my commuter/errands bike and it’s great for the purpose. Shimano creating shit products on purpose (tourney) is just a bad faith act.
Man... Youre being such a fucking cyclist here.
A Tourney mech is simply designed to hit a price point. And often found on a whole bicycles that cost around the same as your two tyres did.
They work absolutely fine. For their intended purpose.