[Pslide]

I’m starting to wonder if this whole overdamped/undersprung craze of high end shock absorbers is really all it’s hyped to be. I’ve spent a year trying to tune both old and new CCDB’s to work just how I’d like on my Banshee Legend. I’ve come to conclusion that I just don’t like low speed damping.

That’s just rider preference you say. Perhaps so.

There’s no doubt that overdamped/undersprung theory provides incredible bump absorption, what feels like great traction, and provides a very stable ride. I won’t argue that.

But there are negatives too. I don’t know if it’s just me that doesn’t get along with these negatives or not, and I guess that’s why I’m posting. To see if anyone else has come to similar conclusions.

It’s more than the “dead” feeling everyone describes. Overdamping seems to not only absorb the energy from the terrain (converting it into heat in the damper), but also the rider’s energy. Body language to work the bike is damped. Pumping terrain to get traction on off cambers is damped. Pedalling is damped. And I've tried a range of low speed compression settings.

But when I open up the low speed compression all the way and free the shock from all this overdamping, it seems I can feel all that energy I put into the bike return, and my riding feels faster, livelier, and more confident.

When I’m riding one of these overdamped setups, like the CCDB or even an RC4, the suspension feels vague, I can’t compress the bike fully into corners, and for some reason I move my body weight to the back of the bike where it doesn’t belong.

Open up the low speed and I’m hammering deeper into corners and riding more over the front of the bike and attacking the terrain.

Yeah, overdamped shocks like the CCDB seem to give better traction and control, and yet when I back to back a CCDB with a Fox DHX, my times were identical (despite the DHX feeling quite a bit looser in sections).

In fact, if this overdamped/undersprung theory really was as good as everyone first thinks when they try it, wouldn’t there be more WC pros riding CCDB and BOS rather than Fox? Yeah, I know they’ve got sponsorship deals and special moar shimz, but most of those guys are hungry enough to do whatever is best for them, including taking the old sharpie to the Maxxis, and yet they have mostly stayed with more conventional shocks over the past few years.

I’m not slating the CCDB, it does exactly what it says on the tin, and I’ve found on the new tune it has enough range in the low speed circuits to open it right up and make it feel like a more conventional shock.

So I guess this overdamped/undersprung thing is not for me. Would be interested if anyone has had similar experiences and feelings...

 

[Pslide]

Dam that was a long post. Sorry.

 

[jonKranked]

Yeah, overdamped shocks like the CCDB seem to give better traction and control, and yet when I back to back a CCDB with a Fox DHX, my times were identical (despite the DHX feeling quite a bit looser in sections).

All this proves is that its the rider, not the bike, that makes the difference.


And there's a reason that suspension comes with all those knobs, as opposed to calling up a suspension company, telling them your weight, how you ride, and what frame you are on, and they send you a shock with no way to adjust it.

 

[Pslide]

Sometimes I wish shocks didn't come with so many knobs...God knows how many hours I've spent repeating the same bit of track tweaking knobs trying to find the holy grail. I know too much now and will never be happy. Ignorance is bliss.

(Actually, I'm always happy if I'm on the bike...)

 

[Jeremy R]

I agree with you. I don't like slow overdamped shocks either.
That is why I turn the knobs on my CCDB and I have a fast rebounding, lightly damped shock.
You can adjust the new one to fit about any rider style out there.
One other thing to consider is the bike that you own. I am not familiar with the Banshee, but I know on other frames the CCDB requires vastly different setups depending on the frame. Take the two Morewoods for example.
The Izimu is a very active agile feeling frame, and it works better with running just enough damping to hold the frame up in corners and to keep from bottoming. The lighter compression also helps the bikes on small bumps which can be a downside on a straight up single pivot.
The Makulu on the other hand requires a totally different setup. 185 pound riders are using 200 pound springs on the bike. When you run springs that light, it is important to run enough high speed damping to keep the spring from getting stuck down on repetitive hits. The trick to it is to have a shock that you can get the rebound fast enough on to also be able to run a light spring with a good amount of high speed damping. These kind of bikes are trickier to setup, but work great when you get it right.
Different strokes for different folks, riding styles, frame design, etc.....

 

[Pslide]

I agree with you. I don't like slow overdamped shocks either.

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

The Banshee is 8.5" of travel with quite a progressive shock curve, although it goes a little regressive at the end (where the bottom out bumper or Fox boost valve comes into effect).

Leverage curve wise it's quite similar to a Sunday, which were never well liked with the CCDB according to the internetz. I'd guess that was just the old CCDB though, which didn't really have the damping range for low leverage bikes like the Legend/Sunday. That issue has now been resolved.

I'd like to ride the Makulu, I hear it's amazing (or rather the BOS is amazing). But I reckon it feels a lot like the Legend+CCDB when I've got it set up with a soft spring, 40% sag, and a lot of damping.

And while this feels ultra buttery and controlled, I am wondering if that's all it is...just a feeling, which isn't necessarily faster.

 

[kidwoo]

I know what you mean. I said the same thing here a few years ago and several people just told me I don't know what I'm talking about. I LIKE pumping corners and transitions and damping that out takes away a lot of the fun of riding a bike on mountains.


Like jeremy said though, it depends a lot on the frame. A bike that blows through it's travel pretty easily like a sunday, gives birth to thousand page threads on how to set them up. Other frames, not so much is needed to calm down the rear end. Set your bike up how you like it. If something new is an improvement for you go for it. If not, no big deal.

 

[-C-]

Yeah, overdamped shocks like the CCDB seem to give better traction and control, and yet when I back to back a CCDB with a Fox DHX, my times were identical (despite the DHX feeling quite a bit looser in sections).

Could it be you are riding quick on both (similar times) yet you are reaching the point of where the shock is making you feel ragged and loose in the DHX's case, yet you have not quite reached that point on the DB? Maybe because its just that it further out of your comfort zone?

 

[thom9719]

Part of that could be the frame. I rode a legend for a while and the rear end had so much friction that it REALLY made it feel dead. No matter what shock I had on it, the rear end just didn't feel right. I understand the bushing theory, but the application on that bike didn't do it for me.

-KT

 

[Pslide]

Part of that could be the frame. I rode a legend for a while and the rear end had so much friction that it REALLY made it feel dead. No matter what shock I had on it, the rear end just didn't feel right. I understand the bushing theory, but the application on that bike didn't do it for me.

-KT

My bushings have very little friction (I've had the shock out enough to know!). Although it could be the way the leverage ratio works with the CCDB.

BTW, Legend Mk2 will be full ball bearings.

-C- : You could be right...perhaps I've not reached the limits of the CCDB, I'm not sure. And that's because pushing it any further just doesn't feel intuitive to me. Despite having all that traction, I'm never quite sure how much lean angle it will take and where to put my weight on the bike, whereas on a lighter damped bike it seems to come naturally and I can really rag it.

 

[Steve M]

Too much of anything is a bad thing, for sure. The CCDB, particularly on the Legend, has the ability to run WAY too much damping in either direction, giving you what ends up being a very dead ride should you choose to set it up like that. Some people have definitely taken the "more compression, less spring" idea too far (like one guy I know of dropping his spring rate about 30% and running tons of compression... something's not right with at least one of those setups!), but the whole idea of suspension "tuning" is that you find the sweet spot that works for you - not just increasing a certain parameter as much as you can. I also find that I back the compression off for flatter tracks, it's not required to stabilise the bike and as you say, all it does is suck your energy when it comes to popping out of corners and off lips. I sometimes increase the spring rate for those tracks too, if I can actually be bothered changing the springs out. There are some rollers on A-line and Crank It Up in Whistler that are ridiculously tiring with my normal setup, you can pump all you like but the bike just sucks it up. For that stuff, yep, stiffer and/or less damping is definitely an improvement.

Also, a lot of the stuff that I've personally posted regarding running higher levels of compression has been relative to what the average rider runs, and what stock suspension tunes are like (keeping in mind I'm 90kg/200lbs). Keep it in perspective, there will be a range that works for you and it won't be the same as for everyone else.

 

[Commencal-guy]

I guess i've been out for a while... Whats the "Moar Shimz" deal? can someone quickly sum up what that is?

 

[Steve M]

I guess i've been out for a while... Whats the "Moar Shimz" deal? can someone quickly sum up what that is?

I believe the original quote was "moar oil + moar shimz = OMGWTFAVYPWN" in response to a heated debate about the merits of Avalanche vs BOS. Since then it's become a catchphrase for some reason. Original post seems to have been deleted however.

 

[jonKranked]

I guess i've been out for a while... Whats the "Moar Shimz" deal? can someone quickly sum up what that is?

It was a nonsense response in LOLcat grammar in regards to newer generation shocks, and was generally used in instances of people asking "what do I need to do to fix my shock?"

It wasn't really all that funny, until a certain mod threatened the ban-hammer on anyone that used it. Then it was hilarious.

 

[Kanye West]

The way I was running my CCDB before I just got it rebuilt was with around 4-5 clicks of LSC and LSR (almost all the way out) and the HSC around 0.75 turns in and HSR about 1.5-2 turns in. It felt great and compliant. Pumping corners gave me that nice acceleration feeling. I had been slowly letting out the HSR to keep the bike riding higher and more poppy. Always had run dead on 33% sag (350# ti spring on a Sinister R9, middle slot). Before that I had run a 300# spring to get around 40% sag and just ran more damping, but bottomed out a lot and couldn't ever bring the front end up when I needed to.

When I got it back I left it pretty close to the stock settings just for the hell of it. Same tune. Compression pretty much cranked compared to where I had it before. Rode it around a bit and HATED it, but didn't have time (or the tool) to change it before I got on the trail.

On the trail, hitting bigger features fast, it came into it's element. It wasn't comfortable, but it was FAST. Almost like I could do no wrong. I could feel the hits but they wouldn't disturb the bikes attitude. I couldn't possibly slam the bike into a deep corner too fast or too hard. I spent NO effort trying to help/prevent the bike from see-sawing all over the place, and the bike stayed high through repeated hits in the plush part of the travel. I was INSTANTLY hitting stuff faster. 50% faster. With an Avy, I would have only been 25% faster. I hear that a BOS would have made me 50%+ faster though. (That last part was a joke).

I always knew this shock couldn't be tuned well in a parking lot/curb/small-feature-you-find-near-your-place kind of test, but I always thought I could get a decent handle on how it would act on the trail like I can with other shocks. Nope. Not one bit at all. Not even worth trying.

So, short version, I went from running the shock undersprung/overdamped (around 40% sag), to properly sprung/underdamped, to properly sprung/overdamped. Properly sprung/underdamped was fun, was poppy, and was comfortable on the smaller stuff, but required LOTS of body compensation on big features and took lots of time to recover which resulted in slow handling. With it overdamped, it wasn't comfortable on the smaller stuff but overall speed/stability/handling improved, a lot. The worst FEELING setup was the one that showed results. Made me realize how much the previous setup with the damping backed out was "ragged and loose" as someone mentioned. Fun, but yeah, loose.

 

[EVIL JN]

This maybe is a little of topic but anyway i have started to notice the same feeling as described earlier. As the temp outside has started to drop well below zero without to much snow the ground on my track has gotten faster rolling. This track i have ridden a good hundred of times so i know it better than my pocket quite litteraly.

The cold made it seem like the lsc was cranked up way higher than normal, but not in a way i have felt through the entire range in warmer condition. It just felt slower and more controlled (boxxer, vivid, on a sunday) as in more controlled compression and mainly like after the first 25-30%. Usally i have run 2 clicks lsc on both fork and shock now i ended up running 0 clicks on the fork and left it at 2 on the shock since it warms up faster due to smaller amount of oil.

The general feeling i felt was the bike feelt more controlled but still good on the small stuff, but still gave good feedback on pumping terrain and poppy and just plain easier to go down the track faster, the fork definetly felt like it didnt dive as much under braking.

my conclusion is that sometimes experiment and try out some quite diffrent setups instead of just adjusting one or two clicks and take the wheather in to account as well.

 

[Pslide]

Not sure about the temperature thing Evil JN - I've not noticed that.

But I'm rather relieved to find that others have gone through the same pain barrier of finding the perfect balance of damping. And not necessarily liking the "feeling" of low speed damping.

Hack - great post, thanks. I can definitely relate to your experience. And where I do most of my shock fiddling does not have particularly big features or extremely rough terrain. It does have roots, high speed repeated hits, off cambers etc so I guess I'm tuning to that kind of terrain. I can definitely see how running a good balance of more compression damping on very rough or rocky courses could allow more control. And I guess this leads into what Socket is talking about - tuning for the course.

I generally don't like changing my setup for the course I'm riding...prefer to get used to one setup and leave it. But I also want to know that I'm getting the most out of my bike, so catch 22.

I've also discovered that going up a spring rate when running less damping is very necessary. I've been as low as 300 on the CCDB, and as high as 400 on a DHX. Running a higher spring rate reduces sag to around 33%, and on the Legend that improves the anti-squat, which really makes it move when you get on the pedals. I definitely prefer this setup to the 38-40% sag option, regardless of how much LSC I'm running.

Well good, I'm can sleep a bit better knowing that I'm not the only one not fully buying into overdamped suspension being the best thing in the world, and I'll be happy to run underdamped/oversprung with a shock designed to do the opposite.

 

[EVIL JN]

Not sure about the temperature thing Evil JN - I've not noticed that

Thats mostly directed to place were the temp goes below zero thats when i feel the most diffrences, on my boxxer 0 clicks and zub zero temperatures feels like somewhere between 4 and 5 out of 6 when its above zero but still not in the same way.

 

[Kanye West]

Not sure about the temperature thing Evil JN - I've not noticed that.

But I'm rather relieved to find that others have gone through the same pain barrier of finding the perfect balance of damping. And not necessarily liking the "feeling" of low speed damping.

Hack - great post, thanks. I can definitely relate to your experience. And where I do most of my shock fiddling does not have particularly big features or extremely rough terrain. It does have roots, high speed repeated hits, off cambers etc so I guess I'm tuning to that kind of terrain. I can definitely see how running a good balance of more compression damping on very rough or rocky courses could allow more control. And I guess this leads into what Socket is talking about - tuning for the course.

I generally don't like changing my setup for the course I'm riding...prefer to get used to one setup and leave it. But I also want to know that I'm getting the most out of my bike, so catch 22.

I've also discovered that going up a spring rate when running less damping is very necessary. I've been as low as 300 on the CCDB, and as high as 400 on a DHX. Running a higher spring rate reduces sag to around 33%, and on the Legend that improves the anti-squat, which really makes it move when you get on the pedals. I definitely prefer this setup to the 38-40% sag option, regardless of how much LSC I'm running.

Well good, I'm can sleep a bit better knowing that I'm not the only one not fully buying into overdamped suspension being the best thing in the world, and I'll be happy to run underdamped/oversprung with a shock designed to do the opposite.

Seeing yourself on video, or watching another rider your same weight ride YOUR bike to see where it's generally riding in the travel can be a sobering event. "Wow my fork is riding that far down in the travel? No wonder my back end is kicking up and my steering blows dog." It especially helps if you can watch someone super fast on the same terrain to see how their suspension is behaving and why they set it up the way they do.

I agree though. If I were tuning for a trail that weren't as steep with less big moves on it and less super deep chop, I'd probably set it up entirely different. I do prefer to just LEAVE my setup be though. I can get faster and more consistent when my setup isn't changing all the time. I know when I'm getting the most out of my bike when I'm not thinking about it, or having to compensate for it at all.

The place I was riding just happened to be a perfect example of where you can get going SERIOUSLY fast if your suspension is doing what it's supposed to do, and where it can really hinder you, or even be dangerous if it's not. Some examples that poorly represent the scale of what I'm talking about, but you get the idea.

 

[Pslide]

Thats mostly directed to place were the temp goes below zero thats when i feel the most diffrences, on my boxxer 0 clicks and zub zero temperatures feels like somewhere between 4 and 5 out of 6 when its above zero but still not in the same way.

Well, the oil will become more viscous at lower temps, so damping would become slower, but once you've got the suspension moving it should warm up and not make a big difference. I guess if you were doing 1 minute runs and then pushing up for 10 min you might not generate enough heat. Not something I've noticed in the past though.



Hack, that's some good looking trail! I could see how having a solid, planted rear end could help there, especially when moving at a good clip... The trails I ride regularly here in the UK are a bit more tame, mostly dirt, roots, berms, flat corners, jumps, stuff to pump and probably more medium speed rather than flat out. I'd guess it's all more suited to a livelier suspension setup.

 

[Delimeat]

A lot of my local crew has gone back to a more old school setting on their suspension for some of the reasons you listed. I can see why for a lot of riders, it is simply more fun in some sections of trail/for certain riders to run a more active setup.

I for one doubt that I'll ever revisit how I used to set my bikes up, I actually cringe at the thought! Many moons ago I ran a Mojo cart in my Boxxer (easy on the hate please!) combined with a Mojo tuned DHX. After some back and forth convo, the Mojo boys really strongly suggested I run a slower rebound setup than I otherwise might have thought of, combined with heaver oil (in the cart). The Mojo cart's rebound greatly affected the compression, which I was actually thankful for! People would jump on my sled at the trail head and explain to me that I was GOING TO DIE if I rode my bike that slow, soft, and with that much lsc.... I love the parking lot push tests idiots. I have never had suspension that was so composed under duress, it was mind blowing how planted and fast that bike was, total control. Thing problem I found though was that at anything under pinned the bike was A LOT of work to ride and make do the things I wanted it to do. I'd lend my bike out to friends that were not quite as aggressive and they had a tough time on it, no fun. Because I don't always want to ride that fast I would suffer a bit when I was just cruising, but I really don't like constantly changing setup so I would just leave it. I now run a similar setup on my 6" AM bike: slow ass rebound, soft suspension, and 10 wt. oil in my 36 w/ the lsc nearly closed.

Different strokes for different folks (even if those w/ underdamped Marz forks ARE WRONG =) I ride my mountain bike to go fast. I have a DH'ers attitude no matter which bike I'm on, fast lines and carry speed. If I stopped to session steep booters and liked doing tricks then I certainly would have a different setup. For me, this works best.. no matter how much it feels like ass in the parking lot.

 

[davec113]

I know when I'm getting the most out of my bike when I'm not thinking about it, or having to compensate for it at all.

yup

Bike should feel like it does whatever you're thinking. (think good thoughts )

 

[FullMonty]

People would jump on my sled at the trail head and explain to me that I was GOING TO DIE if I rode my bike that slow, soft, and with that much lsc....

(snip)

Different strokes for different folks (even if those w/ underdamped Marz forks ARE WRONG =)

Hahaha, I get similar comments when people jump on my bike. Oddly enough, they too are riding marzocchis and the measure of a good suspension is the "drop test" in the parking lot.

 

[demo 9]

For all the Smartypants people on here, id like to throw another question out to the audience. I am rocking a canfield jedi, It BLOWS through travel on drops. 6 feet will GUARENTEE a bottom out if landing on both wheels and if i nose it in on the front its a 5050 chance. However, its idiot proof and incredibly fast on rocks and chatter. For jumping (bunny hop a rock, NOT a "jump") its not half bad for the super soft feeling it has. I am thinking that when i set up and "preload" the bike, the HSC? kicks in and gives me a "platform". I LOVE the way the bike rides and probably wont change much, however, is this setup holding me back, or just feeling faster than it is. It is FAST, really fast, but on paper and parking lot it feels so soft and slow. Opinions?

*ideally id like to get a +25lbs spring rate just to keep it a tiny bit stiffer, but i do not think it is anything i can do on the shock being as it is maxed out. I love the fact that it eats everything, and would like to keep that, but it worries me that it is so deep in the travel (i think)

 

[Kanye West]

Hahaha, I get similar comments when people jump on my bike. Oddly enough, they too are riding marzocchis and the measure of a good suspension is the "drop test" in the parking lot.

Actually the new Zoke's can be set up with a TON of damping. The range on the new Evo's is impressive.

What's the "drop test" in the parking lot though? Only one I know of is dropping the back end unloaded to see the pedal kickback.

 

[FullMonty]

Actually the new Zoke's can be set up with a TON of damping. The range on the new Evo's is impressive.

What's the "drop test" in the parking lot though? Only one I know of is dropping the back end unloaded to see the pedal kickback.

ok, they're on RCV, RC2X and RC3 forks, I know the new Evo damper is much improved.

pick up the back end and drop it on the ground. a scrawny hillbilly type (maybe 160lbs.) picked up my Banshee Rune with Evolver ISX-6 and it basically bounces solid (I was like 230lbs. at the time and run 25% sag on that bike,) and he proceeded to tell me that my bike setup was all wrong, it should land dead like his 45 lbs. coil sprung bike set up for his weight.

 

[Delimeat]

For all the Smartypants people on here, id like to throw another question out to the audience. I am rocking a canfield jedi, It BLOWS through travel on drops. 6 feet will GUARENTEE a bottom out if landing on both wheels and if i nose it in on the front its a 5050 chance. However, its idiot proof and incredibly fast on rocks and chatter. For jumping (bunny hop a rock, NOT a "jump") its not half bad for the super soft feeling it has. I am thinking that when i set up and "preload" the bike, the HSC? kicks in and gives me a "platform". I LOVE the way the bike rides and probably wont change much, however, is this setup holding me back, or just feeling faster than it is. It is FAST, really fast, but on paper and parking lot it feels so soft and slow. Opinions?

*ideally id like to get a +25lbs spring rate just to keep it a tiny bit stiffer, but i do not think it is anything i can do on the shock being as it is maxed out. I love the fact that it eats everything, and would like to keep that, but it worries me that it is so deep in the travel (i think)

The only way to see if its holding you back is to try something else. Having said that, I couldn't see how the suspension reacting to 6 ft hits would really hold you back, assuming its not sending you off into the rubarb upon landing. My take on suspension is that it is there for traction and cornering, my body is there to absorb bigger/harder hits... within reason of course. Without being retarded about it I don't really set my stuff up to handle the big stuff, obviously I don't sag 60% in either, but you get the drift. As long as its not doing hard and 200 times a run I don't worry about bottoming. It happens.

Regarding preloading the bike and the HSC coming into play: I could be way off base here but I don't think anything you could do w/ your body (preloading, ect...) would really have that effect. Anything your body does should be handled by the lsc range I would imagine.

If by your shock being "maxed out" you mean that the some/all of the comp adjustments are fully closed, then I would say that you do need to try another spring if you really are not happy with how it works.

 

[Pslide]

Demo 9, what shock are you running?

I think a lot of fast racing setups will bottom on bigger hits. It sounds like you are running an overdamped/undersprung setup like I ran most of the past year. When I was running this it was using 100% of travel on a typical race run with no big drops.

If you are running all your compression damping near closed, and if your compression damping works on a poppet style valve like a CCDB, then there is the possibility your LSC is opening up too early because it's not allowing enough oil flow. I had this problem on my Legend when I was running the older CCDB. It's not going to dramatically change how the bike bottoms though - you will probably have to go to a heavier spring for that.

 

[buckoW]

The leverage/force curve of the frame will have far too much influence on the damping and spring rates to just talk about over/under damping/spring rates without frame info. The CCDB on a Sunday is more about tuning things out than tuning then "IN." The Sunday needs a progressive shock to combat the last third of the leverage curve. The CCDB is not a progressive shock. That is part of the reason it is hard to get it set up right. Many bikes have mechanical support that don't need much LSC and many riders don't go fast or aggressive enough to need lots of compression. There are too many variables to talk about it in such vague terms.

If the Legend is like the Sunday then I doubt the CCDB will ever feel great in that bike. An RC4 might feel better due to the progressiveness (just a guess).

 

[Kanye West]

I never ever understood how Sam Hill could hammer the living daylights out of that bike and not be bottoming it out the WHOLE way down the hill. He had to be running the damping absolutely cranked on whatever shocks he was running. If you look at him sagging the bike it's not like he's running a mega stiff spring. Everybody I know with a Sunday just complains about constant bottoming out, or having to set it up so it doesn't move at all.

A shock with 200# of pressure always struck me as a cheap band-aid fix for poor progression in the back. I guess that's why they exist though.

Cool thing about the CCDB's is how small and how effective that bottom-out bumper is though. I wonder if they get that linear feeling JUST from the resy pressure, or from the extra shaft length before the bumper, or both.

 

[Gary]

I never ever understood how Sam Hill could hammer the living daylights out of that bike and not be bottoming it out the WHOLE way down the hill. He had to be running the damping absolutely cranked on whatever shocks he was running. If you look at him sagging the bike it's not like he's running a mega stiff spring. Everybody I know with a Sunday just complains about constant bottoming out, or having to set it up so it doesn't move at all.

Ok, you don't know me but , I never bottomed my Sunday harshly running around 40% sag on a DHX 350lb spring 90psi and no bottom out or LSC and I weigh 210+

riding style comes into it too

 

[Pslide]

A shock with 200# of pressure always struck me as a cheap band-aid fix for poor progression in the back. I guess that's why they exist though.

I would suggest it's the other way around. The leverage curves on the Sunday and the Legend were designed to work better with a shock with bottom out resistance - ala Fox DHX. Remember, when they were designed that was basically the shock of choice. Their leverage goes regressive as the bottom out resistance ramps up, giving a more linear feel overall.

Now that the new breed of shock has emerged without bottom out resistance, well...in honesty it might make me rethink the leverage curve.

That said, I have no problems with bottoming my Legend. I'm not a hucker though - nor is it designed to be a hucking bike. It's a race bike.

Buckow, you could be right, although a lot of people are really liking the CCDB in the Legend from what I understand. The new CCDB does work much better than the old one though.

I tried an RC4 on the Legend for the first time on Sunday. I'm still getting it dialled, so too early to report. I certainly don't mind having the bottom out resistance though...I like the way it ramps up towards the end of the stroke.

 

[P.T.W]

Ive highlighted the relevant bits for you Pslide...Your both rite

Reviews are subject to setup, at one point in time, Steve LOVED the Sunday for it's suspension.

The Sunday was designed to use a shock with some end travel ramp. When I designed the chassis, the en-vogue shock was the Progressive 5th element. Due to a team agreement, I had to make the suspension work with that shock. The 5th element shock had a LOT of end travel ramp, so the suspension was designed to accommodate that. THen the DHX came. It has less end travel ramp than a 5th, but still some. On a DHX, that means making the boost chamber as small as possible, and using 110+ psi of air. If you don't do that, then you are going to use more of your travel. I know what this feels like on the bike, and it feels EXACTLY like how it is described. The Sunday's suspension is setup specific, like any bike. This is why there is a 50 page thread up at the top of Ridemonkey on the subject.

Steve is a friend of mine, and I like him a lot. He's a top notch guy, even if we don't always have the same tastes in or opinions how suspension should function in order to get down the hill fastest.

So far the Sundays have proven pretty good in the hands of pros and amateur riders, but keep in mind, the bike was designed 6 years ago. I had new ideas, ideas on things that I wanted to improve on the bike before a Sunday was ever sold, and you know what? I have ideas on things that I would like to improve on every product I've ever worked on. That's what it's like to be me. Constant improvement, constant thinking. Reviews don't hurt my feelings, but its nice when someone appreciates your work.

The new Turner DHR has everything that was learned over those last 6 years incorporated into it. The DHR has a significant amount of progression designed into the linkage compared to the Sunday, perhaps Jonesy will love it. Perhaps he will not. Either way, it's OK. We will still be friends.

 

[demo 9]

I am running a DHX. I know for a fact that the frame is linear, and i like how it rides, i was just wondering if this was a feel fast setup as opposed to a fast set up.

 

[Pslide]

PTW, how do you remember these old threads?!? Thanks for correction!

 

[P.T.W]

I am running a DHX. I know for a fact that the frame is linear, and i like how it rides, i was just wondering if this was a feel fast setup as opposed to a fast set up.

Do you own a stopwatch????

 

[Pslide]

I am running a DHX. I know for a fact that the frame is linear, and i like how it rides, i was just wondering if this was a feel fast setup as opposed to a fast set up.

A DHX? Sorry, I'm confused now. I didn't think the DHX had much in the way of compression damping, so I think I misread your first post. And I've not had much experience tuning DHXs. Max out our bottom out pressure and dial up the boost valve. I think if you take off the blue cap for the boost valve you can actually dial it in even more. That's about all I know though...

 

[frango]

Let me add my 2 or 3 cents.
I have had 2006 Glory DH and 2008 Glory. Both bikes with DHX Air. Yes, yes... I know, the shock lacks mid-stroke damping. Using it with proper SAG, min ProPedal PSI was causing frequent bottoming out. Using it with higher pressure was decreasing small bumps sensitivity. So, not the shock for the frame. But I liked it.
Now, I've got new Glory S with RC4.
First of all, I had to switch original 450lbs spring for 300lbs. 30% stiffness difference! I managed to get 32-33% SAG.
I didn't have chance to ride it in rough terrain, but it feels plush and sensitive.
But, I can't get it work fast. LSC and HSC are out or 1 click in. Rebound is 3 clicks in. I can't make it pop. Parking lot test are for nothing, but shouldn't it be possible to set the suspension to bounce like rubber ball?
Is this possible that with pretty soft sping + my low weight (145-150lbs w/ gear) the shock will simply not work fast?
Do RC4s come with diffent factory tunes? like Floats do?
I attach leverage ratio diagram from MTRB posted by Juanito DH for reference.

 

[demo 9]

that would be reboud if you want the suspension to bounce like a rubber ball, all the way out should do it.

 

[frango]

Yes, rebound is one story and the compression is another.
I just came back from local Fox distributor, where I had been with the bike. The guy said the shock worked good, although had quite slow both compression and rebound even with all knobs all the way out, indeed. He thought changing oil from 10 (original?) to i.e. 5 might help, but he couldn't do this for free :| He suspects that this is just the way it (RC4) works.
So, it makes my bike proper spring/overdamped?