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Thoughts on this article, if not posted already?

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Döpfner)

Matthias Döpfner, Chief Executive of German
publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in the daily
WELT against the cowardice of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.
Hartmut Lau translated the article for us. A few days ago Henryk M.
Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement."


It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because
it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their
lives as England and France, allies at the time,
negotiated and hesitated too long before they
noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to
agreements.

Appeasement stabilized communism in the Soviet Union
and East Germany in that part of Europe where
inhuman, suppressive governments were glorified as
the ideologically correct alternative to all other
possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran
rampant in Kosovo and we Europeans debated and
debated until the Americans came in and did our work
for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East,
European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy
word "equidistance," now countenances suicide
bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe
to ignore 300,000 victims of Saddam's torture and
murder machinery and, motivated by the
self-righteousness of the peace-movement, to issue
bad grades to George Bush.

A particularly grotesque form of appeasement is
reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic
fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere by
suggesting that we should really have a Muslim
holiday in Germany.

What else has to happen before the European public
and its political leadership get it? There is a sort
of crusade underway, an especially perfidious
crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic
Muslims, focused on civilians and directed against
our free, open Western societies.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer
than the great military conflicts of the last
century-a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot
be tamed by tolerance and accommodation but only
spurred on by such gestures, which will be mistaken
for signs of weakness.

Two recent American presidents had the courage
needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.
Reagan ended the Cold War and Bush, supported only
by the social democrat Blair acting on moral
conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic
fight against democracy.
His place in history will have to be evaluated after
a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic
self-confidence in the multicultural corner instead
of defending liberal society's values and being an
attractive center of power on the same playing field
as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary-we Europeans present ourselves, in
contrast to the intolerant, as world champions in
tolerance, which even (Germany's Interior Minister)
Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why?
Because we're so moral?
I fear it's more because we're so materialistic.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar,
huge amounts of additional national debt and a
massive and persistent burden on the American
economy-because everything is at stake.

While the alleged capitalistic robber barons in
America know their priorities, we timidly defend
our social welfare systems. Stay out of it!
It could get expensive.
We'd rather discuss the 35-hour workweek or our
dental health plan coverage.
Or listen to TV pastors preach about "reaching out
to murderers."
These days, Europe reminds me of an elderly aunt who
hides her last pieces of jewelry with shaking hands
when she notices a robber has broken into a
neighbor's house. Europe, thy name is cowardice.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
fluff said:
He's quite right of course. We should round up all Muslims and kill them, gas would probably be the best method.
Why did "his" voice sound so nearly like your own, fluff? I think we both can recognize that was not what he was suggesting. :nope:

My best man's whole family is Muslim...just not terrorist. Islam- even fundamentalist Islam- is not the issue. You can believe whatever the heck you want to believe; you can privately wish everyone who doesn't believe as you do an eternal bath in brimstone, but helping them pack and sending them there is a different issue altogether.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
llkoolkeg said:
Why did "his" voice sound so nearly like your own, fluff? I think we both can recognize that was not what he was suggesting. :nope:

My best man's whole family is Muslim...just not terrorist. Islam- even fundamentalist Islam- is not the issue. You can believe whatever the heck you want to believe; you can privately wish everyone who doesn't believe as you do an eternal bath in brimstone, but helping them pack and sending them there is a different issue altogether.
I don't understand your post... :dead:

Oh, are people still dying in The Sudan?
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
If a pastor of a Christian church were preaching a philosophy of terror on unbelievers, better yet one pastor in every major metropolitan area, should a government act to stop him? What if the pastor was in full support of people who flew planes into buildings?

Now, obviously, there are many, many believers of Islam who are horrified about the actions of some extremists, but the fact that most Muslims are not terrorists does not make it acceptable to ignore those who are under the guise of open mindedness and tolerance.

Ask the Branch Davidians about it some day.

So here is the reality of the day, there is a movent afoot globally by some fanatic religious group whose intent is to kill and terrorize as many non-Muslim people as possible. Based on what I have observed via the media, in Iraq they are content to kill Muslims as well to reach their evil goals. The difficult issue is going to be stopping those who are willing to kill and maim while protecting those of a similar faith who just want to live and worship.

Those who know me realize I am not a Bush booster, a fan of the war in Iraq, or limiting the freedom of law abiding people, don't confuse that with fact that I demand the leaders of the free world to hunt down and punish those who opted to become terroists.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
ummbikes said:
Now, obviously, there are many, many believers of Islam who are horrified about the actions of some extremists, but the fact that most Muslims are not terrorists does not make it acceptable to ignore those who are under the guise of open mindedness and tolerance.
Where are their voices? Why is it that when the "extremist" act that the rest of the Muslim world doesn't freak out and condemn it? Sitting idle while others take action in your name is that same as if you did the action yourself.

Granted the media is going to slant it in order to ge the ratings, but if the "real muslims" were to be the louder voice, the media could not prevent it from getting out.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
We let them do that. Fred Phelps would be a decent example of that. The Klan still gets to march in the South. (Illinois Nazis...I ****ing hate Illinois Nazis!"

Hate speech is such a stupid gray area, I hate it! It's like pornography, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. What to do about it is a hard question to answer. France certainly seems to be working on it. I don't know if that's the best way, however. Just because something is hidden doesn't mean it's gone. At least when it's in the open, you can criticize it.

Having said that, the article is bunk...here's the line that lets you know someone is talking out of their ass:

Reagan ended the Cold War
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Slugman said:
Where are their voices? Why is it that when the "extremist" act that the rest of the Muslim world doesn't freak out and condemn it? Sitting idle while others take action in your name is that same as if you did the action yourself.

Granted the media is going to slant it in order to ge the ratings, but if the "real muslims" were to be the louder voice, the media could not prevent it from getting out.

You mostly answered your own question. All the muslims I see speaking on television, and hear on the radio are not thrilled at all with the actions of the criminals. But I watch a lot of BBC and listen much more NPR than I watch Fox News and listen to Rush. That said, yes, it would be nice if the non-radical segments of the Muslim world would quash the actions of the terrorists.

I simply encourage everyone to keep in mind that most Muslims are not terrorists, much like most Christians are not gun hoarding wackos from Texas, well besides the Bush family that is. :rolleyes:
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
llkoolkeg said:
Do you discount a book because you dislike a chapter? :confused:
No, but when I read something that is totally and utterly simplified (not to mention fairly inaccurate) in what is atttempting to be an analysis, I get a little skeptical.
 

-BB-

I broke all the rules, but somehow still became mo
Sep 6, 2001
4,254
28
Livin it up in the O.C.
Slugman said:
Where are their voices? Why is it that when the "extremist" act that the rest of the Muslim world doesn't freak out and condemn it? Sitting idle while others take action in your name is that same as if you did the action yourself.

Granted the media is going to slant it in order to ge the ratings, but if the "real muslims" were to be the louder voice, the media could not prevent it from getting out.
Just to play Devils advocate... :devil:
Did the "church" freak out when Bush decided to go to war and kill thousands of muslims?
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Silver said:
No, but when I read something that is totally and utterly simplified (not to mention fairly inaccurate) in what is atttempting to be an analysis, I get a little skeptical.
It was a short op-ed type piece, Silver! Do you only lend creedence to 500 page theses? Every argument or commentary must be simplified to some extent regardless of the analytical ability of the author or his reader. How can all variables and perspectives be included in such a piece? What fault do you find in what he actually maintained in it?
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Here you go:

"Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East,
European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy
word "equidistance," now countenances suicide
bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians."

First off, considering Israel a paragon of democracy in the Middle East isn't realistic. If they get out of the West Bank and Gaza, they would be. Or if they let Palestinians vote, they would be. And no, the US wasn't a democracy when blacks and women couldn't vote either.

"For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar,
huge amounts of additional national debt and a
massive and persistent burden on the American
economy-because everything is at stake. "

Not really. The war on terror is a small reason for the huge deficit. Not THE reason.

"Bush, supported only
by the social democrat Blair acting on moral
conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic
fight against democracy."

So we invade Iraq?

"Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe
to ignore 300,000 victims of Saddam's torture and
murder machinery and, motivated by the
self-righteousness of the peace-movement, to issue
bad grades to George Bush."

Here's the problem with this. Saddam IS a bad guy. We are supposed to be the good guys. If the best we can do is say "Hey, Saddam is worse" then maybe we need to look at what we are trying to justify, no?

"A particularly grotesque form of appeasement is
reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic
fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere by
suggesting that we should really have a Muslim
holiday in Germany."

Gangs are a problem in LA...does that mean we should cancel Martin Luther King Day? This is the best he can come up with for appeasement. How about France and the headscarf issue...I notice that isn't coming up at all.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
Action-mindedness is good...appeasement can be bad...

But action without foresight and intelligence is perhaps the worst.
 

Chutney

Monkey
Jul 27, 2003
155
0
Tacoma, Wa
That is quite the one sided article. Its Chock full of rhetoric and, as silver said, oversimplifications. It seems to me that the author is trying to glorify Bush because he is acting solely based on his moral high ground while completely ignoring the consequences of such actions.


"Bush, supported only
by the social democrat Blair acting on moral
conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic
fight against democracy."

what a rediculous quote. It Glorifies acting on firmly held, (dare I say religious?) beliefs without considering things from other perspectives or look at a situation through your enemies eyes. Sounds a lot like the ethos of the terrorists doesn't it? If we are so stuck in our ways that we cant compromise or have our viewpoint changed, the world is a lot further gone then I thought.

Articles like this really agravate me because they simplify the world into two categories - Us and Them. Good and Evil.

Nothing is that simple.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Silver said:
Here you go:

"Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East,
European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy
word "equidistance," now countenances suicide
bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians."

First off, considering Israel a paragon of democracy in the Middle East isn't realistic. If they get out of the West Bank and Gaza, they would be. Or if they let Palestinians vote, they would be. And no, the US wasn't a democracy when blacks and women couldn't vote either.
I don't see where he implies Israel is a "paragon of democracy". He's saying that Europe is less interested in protecting democracy than turning a blind eye to terrorist attacks in Israel...not that such attacks are limited to that nation.

Silver said:
"For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar,
huge amounts of additional national debt and a
massive and persistent burden on the American
economy-because everything is at stake. "

Not really. The war on terror is a small reason for the huge deficit. Not THE reason.
It is a reason often listed by "moderate voices" against the war. What is the primary reason, if not that? Too many giant tax cuts for the rich? Too low a minimum wage to facilitate decent income tax revenues?

Silver said:
"Bush, supported only
by the social democrat Blair acting on moral
conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic
fight against democracy."

So we invade Iraq?
Don't forget about Afghanistan! We needed to depose those darned anti-poppy Talibanists before our heroin and opium supplies ran dry.

Silver said:
"Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe
to ignore 300,000 victims of Saddam's torture and
murder machinery and, motivated by the
self-righteousness of the peace-movement, to issue
bad grades to George Bush."

Here's the problem with this. Saddam IS a bad guy. We are supposed to be the good guys. If the best we can do is say "Hey, Saddam is worse" then maybe we need to look at what we are trying to justify, no?
Call me idealistic, but I would like to think that the differences between our societal model and Saddam's amount to somewhat more than bad vs. worse.

Silver said:
"A particularly grotesque form of appeasement is
reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic
fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere by
suggesting that we should really have a Muslim
holiday in Germany."

Gangs are a problem in LA...does that mean we should cancel Martin Luther King Day? This is the best he can come up with for appeasement. How about France and the headscarf issue...I notice that isn't coming up at all.
Good point. Creating a National Muslim Holiday will do no more to curb terrorism among it's most extreme elements than establishing MLK Day did to stop gang violence. They are unrelated, as the author(and you) suggest. I'm glad you mention the headscarf thing. Frankly, it just further illustrates the EU lack of focus on priorities. They are more concerned about symbols of faith in public than public safety. We've seen the ACLU fund similar stupid battles here, too. Instead of focusing on the expansion of civil liberty, it is more important that any reference to God or his teachings be blotted from the public eye no matter how consistent they may be with civil society or the liberties we have come to take for granted here.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Here's a simple analysis from the Cato Institute. I'm looking for something a little more meaty, but there are some numbers there.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-31-03.html

Large tax cuts, huge spending increases. Horrible budget forecasts (remember how much Iraq was initially supposed to cost?) and fiddling with numbers. It's a bit of everything.

As for the US being better than Saddam...there was that Lancet study that estimated the dead at 100,000...now we're thinking about arming ethnic groups to kill other ethnic groups. Torture is apparently a little more widespread than just a few bad apples. We never did find nuclear or biological weapons. But once ethno-religious death squads start looking like a good option, you have to do a little gazing in the mirror.

As far as Israel goes, I think our perspective is skewed in this country, simply because you never hear anything bad about Israel. It's assumed they are the good guy. Good and evil again...when the reality is a muddled gray for both sides.
 

Slugman

Frankenbike
Apr 29, 2004
4,024
0
Miami, FL
-BB- said:
Just to play Devils advocate... :devil:
Did the "church" freak out when Bush decided to go to war and kill thousands of muslims?
I know Pope John Paul - a highly religous figure - came out against it.

There were others too:
Published on Saturday, October 5, 2002 by the New York Times
Evangelical Figures Oppose Religious Leaders' Broad Antiwar Sentiment
by Laurie Goodstein

Christian leaders and ethicists who represent a broad swath of the nation's Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox and African-American churches are speaking out against war with Iraq, a chorus of opposition that prompted five conservative evangelicals yesterday to announce their support for the president.

Even Jewish leaders are divided, a surprise to some policy makers who had assumed that American Jews would wholeheartedly support aggressive action to rid Israel of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein.

Although several Jewish groups have backed President Bush's approach, a major umbrella organization, the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, recently postponed a vote of support after board members disagreed about the consequences of initiating a war in the region.

As Mr. Bush prepares to make the case to move against Iraq in a speech on Monday, a surprisingly diverse cross-section of religious leaders say they are unconvinced that war is necessary, moral or wise.

The objectors represent not only the traditional pacifist churches. They are also joined by many "just-war" adherents who say war can be moral under certain conditions, and who have in the past supported American intervention in Afghanistan, Bosnia and the Persian Gulf.

One hundred Christian ethicists signed a one-sentence declaration last month that opposed a pre-emptive war on Iraq. The signers belong to a broad range of denominations and teach at universities that run from the liberal Catholic and Protestant to the conservative evangelical.

"It's not just the usual left-leaning crowd," said Shaun Casey, an assistant professor of Christian ethics at Wesley Theological Seminary, a Methodist institution in Washington and who helped gather signatures. "You can't dismiss this group by saying, `There they go again.' There's some very conservative and moderate voices in this group of 100."

In religious circles, the antiwar voices are vastly outnumbering the those in favor of a war. Forty-eight Christian leaders, including the heads of the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the United Church of Christ and the National Baptist Convention, an African-American denomination, have sent a letter to the president opposing military action.

At the White House last month, Bishop Wilton D. Gregory, president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, handed a letter to Mr. Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, saying that the bishops urged the president "to step back from the brink of war."

The National Council of Churches, which includes 36 Protestant and Orthodox denominations and frequently criticizes foreign policy, has also announced its opposition. Leaders of member churches spent part of last week on Capitol Hill trying to encourage legislators to question the president's war plans.

"Many of our members really want some evidence that the administration has thought about the unintended consequences of going to war with Saddam Hussein," said the Rev. Robert W. Edgar, general secretary of the National Council of Churches, and a former member of Congress.

In interviews, many Christian, Jewish and Muslim leaders said they feared that an attack on Iraq could kill many Iraqi noncombatants, inflame the violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians, fuel further anti-American sentiment in the Arab and Muslim worlds and set a precedent that would encourage other nations to take unilateral action against their enemies.

Rabbi Ismar Schorsch, chancellor of the Jewish Theological Seminary in Manhattan, which serves Judaism's conservative branch, said, "If we do this unilaterally, it sets us back in terms of international relations to the days of the jungle."

The president of the North American Council for Muslim Women in Washington, Sharifa Alkhateeb, said: "No one that I know of is supporting war. It will be a war not just against Saddam Hussein and the small group who support him, but against the people of Iraq, who are already suffering."

To counteract the chorus of negativity, Dr. Richard D. Land, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, stepped forward to back Mr. Bush. Mr. Land drafted a letter that argued that using military force against Iraq would fit the theological definition of a "just war," because it would amount to a defensive action against a biological or nuclear strike from Mr. Hussein.

Dr. Land said that he had circulated the letter for four days and that four prominent evangelicals had signed it, Bill Bright, founder and chairman of the Campus Crusade for Christ International; Charles W. Colson, chairman of the Prison Fellowship Ministries; D. James Kennedy, president of Coral Ridge Ministries Media; and Dr. Carl D. Herbster, president of the American Association of Christian Schools.

The issue of a first strike also divides Jewish leaders. B'nai B'rith has strongly supported a Congressional resolution to authorize an attack on Iraq. The Union of American Hebrew Congregations, which represents Reform Judaism, agreed it would back unilateral action, as long as Congress approved and the president sought support from other nations.

But in a recent teleconference call, board members of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, which represents 123 local and 13 national groups, could not agree on whether an invasion would result in victory or catastrophe. They plan to take up the question again at a meeting on Oct. 14.

Next week, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations will weigh in. Its chairman, Malcolm Hoenlein, said, "If we fail to act or act and fail, the consequences would be great."

Copyright The New York Times Company
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,229
9,114
Slugman said:
I know Pope John Paul - a highly religous figure - came out against it.

There were others too:
the bible belt (american protestant fundamentalists) was generally in support of the war, on the other hand. perhaps that analogy is easier to understand: bible belt fundamentalists:catholic church::fundamentalist mullahs calling for violent jihad:the muslim faith in general...
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
I don't know what the problem is. It's only a raving right wing German loony. What possible harm can come from them.