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Time for new fork, 2012 Fox vs Marzocchi

Optimax150

Monkey
Aug 1, 2008
208
0
Japan
I have a 2008 888 rc3, one of the few with no issues until now. Starting to have bushing play and knocking, due to location and time just going to order new fork. I like the ease of maintaince with the 888 and durability, heard good things about the new Marz. I really don't need a big fork like the 888, a 66 or 180mm will work fine but if I find a better deal with the bigger fork I will go for it.
I being hearing fox requires a lot maintance. In 2012 they inverted the dampner so did this fix a lot of the maintance issues, still need a lot of maintance? I'm thinking about the 2012 van fit2 180, or even a 40. Does 2012 fox line still need a lot of maintance?
Or should I stay with marzocchi and get the EVO ti?
I'm also thinking about trying to save a little weight on this upgrade.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
They're both good products, and both quite refined from previous generations.

Having ridden both back to back I personally preferred the Fox because I felt it had a better compression damper - proper LS/HS adjuster, more range out of the box and more consistent feeling damping (sealed cartridge, can't aerate fluid). They also come with more 'normal' factory spring rates so less people will need to swap out to a firmer spring, whereas the stock 888 spring is very soft and sourcing a firmer Ti spring is usually expensive and/or difficult. However both those things will only matter if you ride hard and/or are of a weight above 160lbs.

The 2012 Fox damper has been quite reliable, and the lowers seem to keep the oil reasonably clean and stay friction free for a long time - however I service at reasonable intervals out of habit, it's easy because you can remove the lowers and re-use the seals (lower removal tends to damage the seals on both RS and Marz forks, so adds cost to servicing).

The '12 Fox has slightly lower friction than the 888 evos, but they're fairly close in that respect. If you're one of those people that wants to never service your fork, the Marzocchi is probably still the way to go - it'll feel the same for months without it. The Marzocchi is also a little lighter if weight is of concern, about 140g.

I'd get the dual crown version unless you have a good reason to get the single crown, either way. If you must get a long travel single crown I'd opt for a 1.5" or tapered steerer, but it's easier to just get a DC - especially if you're currently running and happy with one.
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,514
26
ACT Australia
I agree with all the above.
The difference between the forks is a tiny amount, both are great products and can be set up well.
I also agree, go triples, they will encourage you to ride harder, faster, bigger with confidence and performance.
 

Optimax150

Monkey
Aug 1, 2008
208
0
Japan
I regularly changed the oil in my 888, and removed the lowers to pack the seals, never had a problem with damaging the seals. There is no problem changing the oil for the fox, just replacing seals and other parts.
I found a 40 just a little bit more than the van 180, so I might stick with the dual crown. My trails and local races dosent really require a dual crown. It just gives you extra plushness which is good. But for weight savings might go single crown.
 

Optimax150

Monkey
Aug 1, 2008
208
0
Japan
I agree with all the above.
The difference between the forks is a tiny amount, both are great products and can be set up well.
I also agree, go triples, they will encourage you to ride harder, faster, bigger with confidence and performance.
Just read your post after I posted mine. I agree, I was just mainly wondering about the reliability of the 2012 fox lineup. I don't want to be replacing seals or parts once every two months or so. One reason I never even mentioned or thought about a boxxer.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,307
129
Lima, Peru, Peru
i´d go marzocchi 888.
they feel good for many weeks, even without regular maintenance. and when you need to do it, its quite

the fox40 do need to be cleaned and lubed on closer intervals. just because of that, i´d go marzocchi.
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
958
5
cali
Tenneco bought Marzocchi in 2008. For about the past eight years, SR Suntour has assembled most of Marzocchi's suspension forks and shocks in Taiwan; last year SR Suntour entered negotiations to buy Marzocchi's bicycle business. When those talks ended, SR Suntour also stopped assembling Marzocchi's products.

Pierantoni said the company is close to reaching a deal with a new company to do assembly; the company has maintained its relationships with its other Asian suppliers, he said. He said the change in assembly will make it "difficult" to fulfill 2012-2013 model year OE deliveries, but won't affect supply of aftermarket products.
Based on Marz's poor track record of maintaining quality while transitioning manufacturing, I'm not confident they'll handle this well. Also seems that their remaining OEM business is low end builds, with low revenue per bike. I've also noticed that getting warranty work has become more difficult as their budget gets more squeezed. One shop mgr (longtime Marz dealer and fan) couldn't get Marz to warranty a defective shock (a few months old) since the written receipt was lost. While Fox CS isn't quite as good as SRAM, it's better than Marzocchi. I think the death spiral is beginning, unfortunately.
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
more consistent feeling damping (sealed cartridge, can't aerate fluid). They also come with more 'normal' factory spring rates so less people will need to swap out to a firmer spring, whereas the stock 888 spring is very soft and sourcing a firmer Ti spring is usually expensive and/or difficult.
You actually felt that the 888's damping is inconsistent? Also the cost for a new ti spring is negligible considered that the 40 cost almost tiwce as much where I live. Just buy a steel spring and add an ata cartridge and it'll be lighter or the same wieght and still cheaper.

The '12 Fox has slightly lower friction than the 888 evos.
Don't think so.
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
Me too.

Pre SKF-Seal-era where far off in that respect. blowed trhough mid-travel badly with the old damper though. It got really better with these seals and the damper is now really great but in terms of suppleness a broken in 888 is still ahead.
 
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TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
All forks break and eventually feel like ****. Buy one and take care of it as well as you can.
I beat the piss out of my 888 for like 9 months without touching it, including 14 Northstar days. Changed the oil in the spring for good measure, but the the thing still felt as great as my friends freshly broken in one. The open bath means there is allot more oil, so it takes allot longer to get crapped up
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,164
1,087
Italy/south Tyrol
You actually felt that the 888's damping is inconsistent?
Pressure is building up in the open bath system. Therefor it's possible that the damping of the 40s are more consistent. I recommend if ridden frequently unscrew the top caps of both legs to unleash the air pressure every few rides.

I service my 888 once a year. Not because it's needed. The fork feels the same at the end of the season like in the beginning. So, yeah, if you don't want to do alot of work on your fork, go with 888. If you don't like the damping, go the AVA path.
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,556
0
I'm homeless
Pressure is building up in the open bath system. Therefor it's possible that the damping of the 40s are more consistent. I recommend if ridden frequently unscrew the top caps of both legs to unleash the air pressure every few rides.

I service my 888 once a year. Not because it's needed. The fork feels the same at the end of the season like in the beginning. So, yeah, if you don't want to do alot of work on your fork, go with 888. If you don't like the damping, go the AVA path.
As well, I find my 888 needs that done about as much as my old 40 needed seal and dust wiper clean
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
Apart from personal experience I collected much feedback from RC3 Evo on and offline and pretty much everyone said that it was the best fork they ever ridden and a few of them came from a 40 plus I never heard that someone complained about the damping being inconsistent. In theroy it could happen but practically... and wher should that pressure come from?
 

Ithnu

Monkey
Jul 16, 2007
965
0
Denver
Buy one and take care of it as well as you can.
From you I'm calling shenanigans on this post! ;)

Really though, I've owned a 2008 40 for 2 years and a 2010 888 Ti for 2 years. Now I have a Dorado! All 3 are great forks. Know why I'm riding the Dorado? It was the cheapest of the 3 for me this year, really can't go wrong with any of them.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
115
San Francisco
Pressure is building up in the open bath system. Therefor it's possible that the damping of the 40s are more consistent. I recommend if ridden frequently unscrew the top caps of both legs to unleash the air pressure every few rides.
Ya, you gotta burb it every once and a while, just like a moto fork. Takes 30 seconds. When is someone going to come out with top caps and auto-bleeders for those things? I'd pay good money. Also, my magical 2008 888 is still going strong. I can't ever count how many resort and shuttle days it has on it now. It has so much ride time on it that the paint on the crowns is fading, not chipping, but fading from sunlight exposure it appears. I think I've replaced the seals twice? But this is socal so seals last way longer for sure. I just wish they would make a real goddam*ed xfirm spring. The 7.7 spring just isn't stiff enough for someone over 200 pounds riding steep stuff. Even after putting 10 wt oil in the damper. Going to experiment with 15 wt soon.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
115
San Francisco
In theroy it could happen but practically... and wher should that pressure come from?
Changes in ambient pressure (going from sea level to elevation for example). Or the seals acting like a one way valve, sucking air into the chassis during operation but not letting it out.
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
But if I create negative pressure by closing the damping topcap while compressed it should last longer for this to take effect!?
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
115
San Francisco
But if I create negative pressure by closing the damping topcap while compressed it should last longer for this to take effect!?
Well, kind of. The pressure differential will be different. But it will still be there, and change at the same rate. You will just be at a different point along the pressure v. ride time curve so to speak.

But no, that really doesn't solve the problem at all. Auto bleeders would.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
15,864
957
01776
gah, if money were no object there would be no question in my book...that fox is one slick fork... plus fox is only growing in the mtb world...unlike Marz which may not be around next year.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
You actually felt that the 888's damping is inconsistent? Also the cost for a new ti spring is negligible considered that the 40 cost almost tiwce as much where I live. Just buy a steel spring and add an ata cartridge and it'll be lighter or the same wieght and still cheaper. Don't think so.
I've ridden multiples of each fork and spent two days in the last few weeks trying both on some tracks with significant compressions and g-outs. I think they are both great products, my preference is just that - my personal preference. Any suspension product where the oil sloshes around freely with air will experience *some* aeration of oil, in a Boxxer it may slightly affect compression and in an 888 slightly affect rebound. It's minor.

As for stiction, I compared multiples of both (10/11/12 Evo all felt great and the same to me, 12 40 is marginally better with SKF), back to back, broken in, with cleaned wipers. It's close enough to call it the same. Keep in mind the Fox has one less seal, and thus two less seal lips sliding on the stanchion itself. Might be enough to make the small difference I felt.

I was just mainly wondering about the reliability of the 2012 fox lineup. I don't want to be replacing seals or parts once every two months or so. One reason I never even mentioned or thought about a boxxer.
The 2011 lineup was essentially the same for the most part - and I think that's the year when they actually fixed everything. 2012 is just a few minor changes (SKF seals etc). At this stage you've got a pretty ironed-out product.

For whatever it's worth, I've run mine for a year now with no shortage of hard riding, mud, crashes and pressure washing - and so far nothing has gone wrong. I've changed the oil in both cartridge and lowers as a safety measure which I think is reasonable for the volume of riding. Pulling the lowers off and cleaning the seals / foams and replacing the lower oil every now and then will make for a long lasting fork.

If you want to do that less, I'd get the 888. If you want to split hairs, we're talking about a slightly better performing fork vs. a fork that offers slightly longer service intervals. I also like that the Fox requires less tuning (spring, damper) to work for my riding out of the box. But I know people that want to never service things, and I'd go with the 888 in that case. Personally I'd service semi-regularly regardless of which I bought.
 

Mo(n)arch

Turbo Monkey
Dec 27, 2010
4,164
1,087
Italy/south Tyrol
Ya, you gotta burb it every once and a while, just like a moto fork. Takes 30 seconds. When is someone going to come out with top caps and auto-bleeders for those things? I'd pay good money. Also, my magical 2008 888 is still going strong. I can't ever count how many resort and shuttle days it has on it now. It has so much ride time on it that the paint on the crowns is fading, not chipping, but fading from sunlight exposure it appears. I think I've replaced the seals twice? But this is socal so seals last way longer for sure. I just wish they would make a real goddam*ed xfirm spring. The 7.7 spring just isn't stiff enough for someone over 200 pounds riding steep stuff. Even after putting 10 wt oil in the damper. Going to experiment with 15 wt soon.
Dude, you are able to do that in 30 seconds?
I have definitely two left hands. Still problems with the adjusters and the little balls for the clickking while setting the fork up.
Every time I unscrew the adjusters one of the little balls takes a flight through my garage.
So I am at 1 minute screwing + 15 - 30min of searching that little thingy.:banghead:

Do you have a tip for me or two?
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
I've ridden multiples of each fork and spent two days in the last few weeks trying both on some tracks with significant compressions and g-outs. I think they are both great products, my preference is just that - my personal preference. Any suspension product where the oil sloshes around freely with air will experience *some* aeration of oil, in a Boxxer it may slightly affect compression and in an 888 slightly affect rebound. It's minor.

As for stiction, I compared multiples of both (10/11/12 Evo all felt great and the same to me, 12 40 is marginally better with SKF), back to back, broken in, with cleaned wipers. It's close enough to call it the same. Keep in mind the Fox has one less seal, and thus two less seal lips sliding on the stanchion itself. Might be enough to make the small difference I felt.
I never owned a 40 but the ones I ridden didn't impress me at all considering their retail. Pre 2011 was really bad considering the price and the performance of the competetive products available. I rode broken in 2011 for a few days and it was plush and all, usefull compression adjustments but it wasn't as plush as an 888. Then I rode two different bikes with probably new 12-40 for a few runs and although they might not have been broken in I liked the Evo V2 from my buddy (mine hadn't arrived yet and it was also practically new) much better and everyone was like "man this 888 is so much plusher".

I think the 40 is one of the best forks and now on par with it's competiors. It may become smoother with a little riding but I doubt it becomes plusher than a 888 without foamrings plus grease and engine oil in the right lower. Plus in my country you can't do anything to the fork without voiding warrranty. You have to send it and be careful not to esceed the service intervals to avoid voiding warranty also. So it's overpriced and you have to pay good cash for the service.
 

UncleHowie

Chimp
Feb 9, 2011
76
0
Switzerland
Plus in my country you can't do anything to the fork without voiding warrranty. You have to send it and be careful not to esceed the service intervals to avoid voiding warranty also. So it's overpriced and you have to pay good cash for the service.
Sounds like switzerland ;) That a reason why I sold my Fox 40 and bought a Dorado. Now I have a Fork which is pretty hard but still keeps a lot of traction AND doesn't need a service multiple times a year (I heard that's way better now).
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
I rode two different bikes with probably new 12-40 for a few runs and although they might not have been broken in
That makes a huge difference, both the new 888 and new 40 are very sensitive to break-in time, both seem to need a few weeks of solid riding - I've tried both forks without sufficient time ('12 Evo V2 and '12 40) and they are a different story until broken in. Like I said, I compared a few of the forks back-to-back, completely broken in. I had the opportunity to set them up to my liking also. I wanted to be as objective as possible.

I think on-par is an understatement if you take into account damper tuning and damper performance, which to me is where the big F excels. The most pleasant part of ownership was not having to rip apart and revalve the thing from the word go, and that's a big advantage for a fast/hard rider that either is not capable of performing that task, or doesn't want to. To me that's a step forward in this industry, it's been a long time since I've been able to whack something on out of the box and be completely satisfied with it.

Also, given the much firmer factory spring (medium Fox is between firm and x-firm Marzocchi) of course the 888 feels 'plusher'. I am talking purely about breakaway stiction.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
115
San Francisco
Dude, you are able to do that in 30 seconds?
I have definitely two left hands. Still problems with the adjusters and the little balls for the clickking while setting the fork up.
Every time I unscrew the adjusters one of the little balls takes a flight through my garage.
So I am at 1 minute screwing + 15 - 30min of searching that little thingy.:banghead:

Do you have a tip for me or two?
Yes. I set my rebound and then I keep the adjuster cap off. I leave it in a ziplock bag in my toolbag so that I don't risk losing it. I've found that once I set it up, I never really want to touch it. Leaving it on just means that A. It can come loose, and rattle or fall off, and B. I'm more tempted to screw around with it. Also, with the adjuster on, it can get screwed with accidentally by other people, or just moved around more easily when the bike is being handled. That's the biggest pro tip.

Then all you have to do is loosen the crown bolt (5 seconds) and use a socket to loosen the top cap (takes about 10 seconds) with a regular ratchet, 2 seconds with an air tool. Then just put it all back on. But ya, sockets are the key, none of that bullsh*t crescent wrench stuff. If you leave the rebound adjust cap on that only adds about 5-10 seconds each side (assembly and disassembly). But ya, most people don't have the proper sized sockets. It's a big one (like 27mm maybe?) but worth buying.
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
It's 26mm

That makes a huge difference, both the new 888 and new 40 are very sensitive to break-in time, both seem to need a few weeks of solid riding - I've tried both forks without sufficient time ('12 Evo V2 and '12 40) and they are a different story until broken in. Like I said, I compared a few of the forks back-to-back, completely broken in. I had the opportunity to set them up to my liking also. I wanted to be as objective as possible.

I think on-par is an understatement if you take into account damper tuning and damper performance, which to me is where the big F excels. The most pleasant part of ownership was not having to rip apart and revalve the thing from the word go, and that's a big advantage for a fast/hard rider that either is not capable of performing that task, or doesn't want to. To me that's a step forward in this industry, it's been a long time since I've been able to whack something on out of the box and be completely satisfied with it.

Also, given the much firmer factory spring (medium Fox is between firm and x-firm Marzocchi) of course the 888 feels 'plusher'. I am talking purely about breakaway stiction.
You clearly have more experience with the fork but I was just wondering because over here there are quite a few guys who swapped their 12-40 for a evo v.2 and never looked back.
 
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Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,450
164
Additional pro tip: Grind the end of the socket flat for anything that you're going to use on those 888 top caps. Super shallow hex head depth on them that likes to round the corners easily.

They also don't need to be kung-fu tight. The flange just needs to bottom out securely on the stanchion - anything past that is excessive and will eventually destroy the cap. Remember, it's aluminum.
 

Huck Banzai

Turbo Monkey
May 8, 2005
2,526
21
Transitory
Call it hearsay, but there will be at least another year of Marzocchi MTB, maybe not so much for the MZ US Moto scene! (Trust me, I know stuff! (or make it up, or..) )

Also, Plattekill 2013 - Griiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin.
 
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Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
I think the 40 is one of the best forks and now on par with it's competiors.
One of the best? What else do you have for options? there are only 4 readily available options out there for dual crowns and then smaller niche products.

Fox has been the best option for dual crowns for dampening feel since 2007 in my mind, now its only within the last couple years that other companies have started to catch up. Your previous statement is backwards
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
Nope. Pre 2011 external 2011 compression adjustment was way too soft for the 40. The changes to the damper setup and the skf seals are a big improvement.

After the crap 08/09 years Mz stepped up the game 2010 with the rc3 evo.

But you have to keep in mind that something like this is highly subjective and the quality issues each company had makes it difficult for a comparison over the years.

The only problem I have with fox is that their products cost nearly twice as much and in my case you even have to pay for keeping the warranty and can't do anything for yourself.

Value for money is much better if you buy a 888 or a dorado.
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”
Mar 14, 2005
4,718
798
You can actually service everything in the forks yourself, and Fox provide all service manuals with colour photos right down to bleeding the cartridge.

The pricing situation is just a European issue (which does suck for you guys, I agree), they don't cost a lot more than the alternatives in most other places - and some increase in cost I think is justifiable given the complexity and detail in some of the components compared to the competition, particularly the damper. Twice as much however, isn't.
 

Tetreault

Monkey
Nov 23, 2005
877
0
SoMeWhErE NoWhErE
The only problem I have with fox is that their products cost nearly twice as much and in my case you even have to pay for keeping the warranty and can't do anything for yourself.

Value for money is much better if you buy a 888 or a dorado.
I was wondering what the hell you were talking about but i guess its living in urop, the 40 is actually the cheapest of the two in N.A, and the best performing
 

92SE-R

piston slapper
Feb 5, 2004
272
13
San Diego, CA
what do you guys think of the manitou dorado compared to fox and the 888? the only thing bad I can see wig the dorado is the super tall a-c. thoughts?
 

Kanye West

220# bag of hacktastic
Aug 31, 2006
3,450
164
what do you guys think of the manitou dorado compared to fox and the 888? the only thing bad I can see wig the dorado is the super tall a-c. thoughts?
I thought the Dorado had a slightly lower A-C than the 888? At least that's how it looked when I had one and I put them side by side. Remember, no lower crown.

I had a Dorado for year before it got jacked, and the thing was incredible. Makes everything else feel like riding a mid-90's XR200 compared to a works level 2012 outdoor MX bike. I really couldn't find any faults with it...and those that know me know that I find faults in everything. The steering response was probably a tiny bit slower on big wall-like berms, but I think that's more an issue of wheel flop resulting the total offset in the fork. I'm really curious to know measurements crown/dropout offset of all these different forks.
 

tabletop84

Monkey
Nov 12, 2011
893
15
You can actually service everything in the forks yourself, and Fox provide all service manuals with colour photos right down to bleeding the cartridge.
Yeah and if you do that you'll loose warranty, at least in germany. If you want to keep your warranty Fox or the importer forces you to let maintenance work only do through an autorized service partner while keeping the intervals fox dictates which means that you actually have to pay several hundred € on top if you don't want to loose warranty.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
115
San Francisco
Yeah and if you do that you'll loose warranty, at least in germany. If you want to keep your warranty Fox or the importer forces you to let maintenance work only do through an autorized service partner while keeping the intervals fox dictates which means that you actually have to pay several hundred € on top if you don't want to loose warranty.
I thought in general the EU has better warranty protection than the U.S. Like all electronics have to come with 2 year warranties or something? Isn't there like a magnuson-moss warranty act over there?
 

klunky

Turbo Monkey
Oct 17, 2003
1,079
6
Scotland
Something that people often over look is the supply chain for forks.
Is the distributor any good in your country? Do they carry allot of parts/stock? Do they have a good reputation for dealing with warranty things? Can they do the servicing of the forks for you if you need?

Try getting spare parts for a 888 in the UK and you will be lucky...