[toodles]

Here's your overkill method. https://farmtek.net/motor_sports.html

The more DIY option requires 2 used inner tubes, 2 pressure switches, some zip ties, a shitload of speaker wire and an arduino, maybe some resistors to make a whetstone bridge so you can run the sensor further from the Arduino at a higher voltage since the wire is going to have a good amount of voltage drop. You cut the inner tubes, fold over and zip tie one end so its sealed, zip tie the other end over the pressure switch, fill it with enough air that when a bike tire runs over the tube it trips the switch (like how the bells at ol' timy gas stations worked). String those across the start and finish lines, and write a simple timer program in the Arduino, make sure you have it ignore the input for each tube for a couple seconds after it gets the first input to not count both tires as separate riders.

A digital input should require eff all current so volt drop shouldn't be an issue. Given the completely fucking nerd nature of my day job I once built a timing setup for my old pump track that ran off a spare PLC I had and used FreeSCADA to display a timing board on a laptop with the last 4 lap times.

Given the nature and length of Enduro stages it would be hard work to intercable the start and finish. A timestamp over radio signal would cost more but freaking hell it would be worth it.

Whats Freelap going for these days? Is there a cheaper knock off yet?

 

[canadmos]

A digital input should require eff all current so volt drop shouldn't be an issue. Given the completely fucking nerd nature of my day job I once built a timing setup for my old pump track that ran off a spare PLC I had and used FreeSCADA to display a timing board on a laptop with the last 4 lap times.

Given the nature and length of Enduro stages it would be hard work to intercable the start and finish. A timestamp over radio signal would cost more but freaking hell it would be worth it.

Whats Freelap going for these days? Is there a cheaper knock off yet?

Looks like freelap is a few thousand dollars for everything.

Has anyone seen the races on the north shore? The racers wear a wrist band, which I assume is an rfid or nfc tag, and then they just tap a small device at the start and end. It beeps to let them know you're good.

 

[Leafy]

Looks like freelap is a few thousand dollars for everything.

Has anyone seen the races on the north shore? The racers wear a wrist band, which I assume is an rfid or nfc tag, and then they just tap a small device at the start and end. It beeps to let them know you're good.

there’s a whole shitload of rfid timing systems for RC that are pretty cheap but they’re normally used in closed loop tracks, not sure if any of them support a sprint style race where the start and finish lines are different. Heck there’s also an android app that just uses object recognition on the camera to do timing, but that one only works with a single car, but will trigger with people walking in its view, so I’d that supports 2 phones that’s also an option.

 

[canadmos]

Here's a pic from nsmba, but can't tell any brand on it. Looks low cost?

Though I'm sure you can do this super low budget with two phones that can read nfc tags. Just make your own tags and record the times, then calculate the stages at the end..

 

[jrewing]

Here's a pic from nsmba, but can't tell any brand on it. Looks low cost?

View attachment 214537

Though I'm sure you can do this super low budget with two phones that can read nfc tags. Just make your own tags and record the times, then calculate the stages at the end..

Yeah we use them at our races

 

[Radarr]

Here's a pic from nsmba, but can't tell any brand on it. Looks low cost?

View attachment 214537

Though I'm sure you can do this super low budget with two phones that can read nfc tags. Just make your own tags and record the times, then calculate the stages at the end..

That's a Sportident setup running Pcards. https://www.sportident.us/

If you've got people with cell phones who'll be timing, the STS Pro Time app works well. Requires a person at the end to compile. https://www.sportstimingsolutions.co.uk/ourservices/free-race-timing

 

[Gary]

Some big mtb Enduro events round here used to be timed with those wrist dibbers. Never done one but surely the system makes your stage times kinda dependant on how well you stopped at the machine and how quickly you can dib?
Sounds a fine system for Orienteering... But doesn't sound ideal for an mtb enduro folk are paying a hundred bucks to compete in. Infact. A couple of stopwatches, pad n pen sounds MOAR accurate to me

 

[shirk007]

The system is SportIdent and I am the one that implemented it for the NSMBA Fivers. I saw it being used in the Trans Provence back in 2012 and had our association scrounge up the money to buy the system.

The blue units are needed for each stage start and finish, they are about $120 each. Every rider then needs a card and these are about $17 each. When you do the match for 200 rides and three stage Enduro it's the best option when budget is a driving factor.

Yes the timing is dependent on how quickly you can come to a stop and beep your card. It's a skill to stop and do it quickly, but everyone has to do it soo it's a level playing field. This isn't for the EWS, it's perfect for beer league club racing.

The system is great in that your stage start and finish vollie just needs to carry a the beeper and pole.

We've been using the system for 11 years now and 8-12 events a year and it's worked great.

 

[shirk007]

Some big mtb Enduro events round here used to be timed with those wrist dibbers. Never done one but surely the system makes your stage times kinda dependant on how well you stopped at the machine and how quickly you can dib?
Sounds a fine system for Orienteering... But doesn't sound ideal for an mtb enduro folk are paying a hundred bucks to compete in. Infact. A couple of stopwatches, pad n pen sounds MOAR accurate to me

Pad and pen for 3-5 stages of Enduro with 200 riders would be a nightmare. You try that once then use the SportIdent once and you would never go pad n pen.

If you do one event a year and are charging $100+ for an event then hire a pro timing system for the day.

Weekly club racing with a $5-10 entry fee on a budget nothing beats SportIdent.

Remote trail racing like TransBC TransNZ and the SportIdent still wins out on how quickly you can deploy your stages day after day for a week in locations where getting a live eye system into place would be a huge hassle.

 

[Gary]

Pad and pen for 3-5 stages of Enduro with 200 riders would be a nightmare. You try that once then use the SportIdent once and you would never go pad n pen.

I woudn't personally go anywhere near any mtb enduro on purpose. I think it's shit!

 

[toodles]

Remote trail racing like TransBC TransNZ and the SportIdent still wins out on how quickly you can deploy your stages day after day for a week in locations where getting a live eye system into place would be a huge hassle.

Yeah we use the SportIdent touch on/off tags for the TransNZ and TransBC for the first few years. They're now hiring the equipment for the race and using the non-contact (ride past) ones for NZ and Tassie events. But the gear is a lot more expensive - I reckon the touch on-off is good enough if you're not doing DH racing with them.

Its always a laugh when you're a start marshal watching people try to gain a split second advantage by tapping on when they're already pedalling, then either missing the beep and having to stop or going wildly off line because of the distraction. The marshals have a bit of discretion with where we place the start and stop - I always try to put the stop at nicely visible point where riders can stop easily, but even with a finish sign and a marshal yelling "finish" at them, some riders still nearly miss it.

 

[canadmos]

Cheers on the sportident thing @Radarr @shirk007 @toodles

It's cheap enough that I could just buy the stations or whatever and fund the race myself. Then everyone either buys their own tag or provides beer I return?

So you just need two stations abd those things are offline? Will they work if we use the same two for each "stage"? Or will we need to download the results first?

 

[shirk007]

Are you planning to run multiple events on an ongoing basis? If yes then look at investing in the gear.

 

[Jm_]

Trailcams.

 

[toodles]

I dunno man, unless you're running a few events it gets a bit silly. The pCard chips are cheap enough - like $15-$20 each or something, but you need a start and stop station, plus a PC-USB station for reading the chips and another one to clear them I think. The non-contact "ride-thru" SIAC ones are like $120 each.

Once you have the base station and clear station, you can run a stage with two stations and move them, but you're still gonna have to fork out a bit. Worth it for multiple events but a bit of coin for a muck around event

If you've got a timing person - https://www.raceclocker.com/ this app might be the cheapest option. Its free for less than 10 racers.

 

[canadmos]

I dunno man, unless you're running a few events it gets a bit silly. The pCard chips are cheap enough - like $15-$20 each or something, but you need a start and stop station, plus a PC-USB station for reading the chips and another one to clear them I think. The non-contact "ride-thru" SIAC ones are like $120 each.

Once you have the base station and clear station, you can run a stage with two stations and move them, but you're still gonna have to fork out a bit. Worth it for multiple events but a bit of coin for a muck around event

If you've got a timing person - https://www.raceclocker.com/ this app might be the cheapest option. Its free for less than 10 racers.

Will check out raceclocker.

I don't think our group will have anyone to do timing, which is the problem. I mean maybe...

But with sportident, it seems like I could get the gear for under $500? Which isn't much in the long run.. especially if we make it a yearly fun thing to do, or more. There's really not much underground or enduro racing around here, which sucks.

The sportident website sucks though. What would I actually need to do a race? Two time master stations?

What do the control stations do?

 

[toodles]

Will check out raceclocker.

I don't think our group will have anyone to do timing, which is the problem. I mean maybe...

But with sportident, it seems like I could get the gear for under $500? Which isn't much in the long run.. especially if we make it a yearly fun thing to do, or more. There's really not much underground or enduro racing around here, which sucks.

The sportident website sucks though. What would I actually need to do a race? Two time master stations?

What do the control stations do?

There's the start and stop beacon thingies, plus the PC interface reader for downloading the chips to get the stage times. Plus a seperate "CLEAR" beacon that wipes the chips, so you have a blank chip that can store like 20 different beacons.

We label the start and stop beacons S1 start, S1 finish, etc, then set the program to read to time as (S1 finish - S1 start) = S1 total.

The chips can record multiple of the same beacon so you should be able to use the same marker beacons for multiple stages (although you have to move them after each stage which could be a hassle). Unless your trails have the same start and finish point?

Then you download the chip timestamps and the program assigns the stage times to the riders.

There's quite a bit involved with the SportIdent sets. Even their "small" enduro set contains heaps and heaps of stuff. It's like $2K for a kit.

https://www.sportident.com/tibiapi/medialib/6621152a3863e100013adcee/file/SPORTident_Enduro-Set_S_components_en.pdf

I really reckon just use Strava or something unless you're gonna run an event, or get some non-racing volunteers and stopwatch it.

 

[canadmos]

There's the start and stop beacon thingies, plus the PC interface reader for downloading the chips to get the stage times. Plus a seperate "CLEAR" beacon that wipes the chips, so you have a blank chip that can store like 20 different beacons.

We label the start and stop beacons S1 start, S1 finish, etc, then set the program to read to time as (S1 finish - S1 start) = S1 total.

The chips can record multiple of the same beacon so you should be able to use the same marker beacons for multiple stages (although you have to move them after each stage which could be a hassle). Unless your trails have the same start and finish point?

Then you download the chip timestamps and the program assigns the stage times to the riders.

There's quite a bit involved with the SportIdent sets. Even their "small" enduro set contains heaps and heaps of stuff. It's like $2K for a kit.

https://www.sportident.com/tibiapi/medialib/6621152a3863e100013adcee/file/SPORTident_Enduro-Set_S_components_en.pdf

I really reckon just use Strava or something unless you're gonna run an event, or get some non-racing volunteers and stopwatch it.

Hmm I swear I just typed a reply to this, but it's gone?

For the sportident stuff, for this type of race I'd just need two time master stations? Plus the chips of course.

What are the control stations for?

Or would I just need a time master and a control for the finish?

For this type of low key race, we'd just love the stations from stage to stage. And for around here, that'd just add 10-20 mins of work, the hills aren't big here.

 

[toodles]

I'm not 100% sure mate. You'd need at least a start and stop, plus a computer reader station and maybe a clear. SportIdent does rent/hire their gear so that might be a valid option? Looking at that Enduro MTB pack it seems you need a fair variety of junk to make it work. The bare minimum would be two control stations and the computer reader, but then you'd have to eff about making one station the clear, clearing all the tags, then making that station a different function and putting it out on track.

Their webshite is clear as mud when it comes to telling you what you actually need to get you by.

The Freelap gear is probably going to be heaps easier to use tbh. If you could rent it would be even better.

 

[Gary]

Hold your race over here.

 

[shirk007]

You need two control stations. https://o-store.ca/en/bsf8

And one usb reader. https://o-store.ca/en/bsm8-usb

Then you need one P-card per racer. Ostore doesn't list the P-card but they have them, usually in lots of 50 but they probably have 5-10 they could split out.

For the software you use MeOs. https://www.melin.nu/meos/en/

The controls can be programmed as a clear or control. Program it as a clear at home, clear your cards then change it over to a control in the SpprtIdent software (PC needed for this obviously).

A laptop will be needed at the end to pull your times off the P-cards. Another $50 in a receipt printer gets you a nice pro set up where it spits out your times soon as you scan on the laptop.

 

[Radarr]

You need two control stations. https://o-store.ca/en/bsf8

And one usb reader. https://o-store.ca/en/bsm8-usb

Then you need one P-card per racer. Ostore doesn't list the P-card but they have them, usually in lots of 50 but they probably have 5-10 they could split out.

For the software you use MeOs. https://www.melin.nu/meos/en/

The controls can be programmed as a clear or control. Program it as a clear at home, clear your cards then change it over to a control in the SpprtIdent software (PC needed for this obviously).

A laptop will be needed at the end to pull your times off the P-cards. Another $50 in a receipt printer gets you a nice pro set up where it spits out your times soon as you scan on the laptop.

Yep, all this. But I'll add that you'll need control stations for each start and each finish. So if you're doing a 3 stage race, you'll need 6 control stations total (3 starts, 3 finishes). FWIW, Sofi at the US-based SportIdent office is great to work with.

That being said, unless you're looking to spend a bit of money and learn how to work through all the software (and troubleshooting), I can't say enough good things about that STS Pro app. It's used as the backup timing for the SportIdent system we run for the Montana Enduro Series. We've compared the backup times to the SportIdent AirCard system we run, and there's only about a half-second of difference. It just relies on cell towers, so as long as the phone times are all the same (which are usually pulled from cell networks automatically), and the people timing hit the button in the app as each rider passes the start and finish as the rider goes past, it is impressively accurate.

We actually just bought a bunch of cheap pre-paid cell phones again (the original ones were like 9 year old 3G phones, and that network was shut off recently) to get the backup system refreshed. We got 14 phones to run backup timing on 7 possible stages. Lots of cell providers will give you a free, totally servicable phone if you buy a month of service for like $30-40. (Edit to add: Don't need to pay for service beyond the first month. All cell phones are required to connect to cell networks for emergency purposes. Even if there's no serivce that's been paid for, the phone will still connect to the cell network. You can't make a call, but the times on the phones will sync.)

I'd venture that an easy, cheap route for timing is:
- get two phones per stage wth the STS app, one for the start and one for the finish. These can be phones you buy or just people willing to stand at starts and finishes with the app installed on their own phones.
- check the clock times on the phones make sure the clocks are synced (or you know the delta)
- time the race. enter bib number from the paper plate race plates and press enter in the app to record the stamp.
- email the time stamps from each phone to yourself after the racers are done (if you're using prepaid/old deactivated phones, you can just fire up a hotspot and compile/email them that way.)
- put everything into a google sheets doc
- do spreadsheet magic to calculate total times
- share the non-editable google sheets doc with all the racers

 

[SuspectDevice]

if you are thinking about buying a bunch of shit, and you don’t think you can find friends to operate the timing stations, your friends don’t deserve you.

Zone4 app, make a startlist, press a button either on a laptop that is tethered or an android phone, and your results will populate on the cloud. It’s still the easiest, cheapest thing anyone has suggested yet. Webscorer Pro can do the same thing but the GUI for the app confuses volunteers.

 

[Gary]

 

[6thElement]

I'll be the party pooper and state, be careful how "seriously" you make the race appear without having any liability insurance covering you.

 

[toodles]

I'll be the party pooper and state, be careful how "seriously" you make the race appear without having any liability insurance covering you.

Just make sure your "medics" are racehorse vets with shotguns and pretty quickly no one will report injuries.

 

[jrewing]

Just make sure your "medics" are racehorse vets with shotguns and pretty quickly no one will report injuries.

The other reason to having races deep in a forest.

 

[jrewing]

Legal fear scares a lot of people in the world. Just put everything in the Missus’ name then.
Is it really a race if you have to neck a can at the end? Sounds rather social to me. And if the riders present want to test themselves with a time they are welcome to.
Road motorcycles and cars come with lap timers for use when on a track. Doesnt mean its racing.

 

[canadmos]

I think we've decided to skip anything fancy - for every timed section, someone will go to the bottom and record the finish times (via app or stop watch). Then at the end or midway through, that person will go back to the top and do their run last. Everyone will need to do this once, so it should fair. The hills are pretty small here, so it shouldn't be horrible.

At the start of the timed segments, everyone will be given a start time. You are timed from that moment on. It's the honor system, so you'll get kicked in the jewels if you cheat.

Or if we can find a set of radios, we'll use those. The person at the bottom will radio up "start" and record start-finishes. Last person down brings the radio. But we don't have radios, so this most likely won't happen.

Then we'll just add up the times at the end. But really, the times are just so that no one takes their sweet ass time babying the bike down the trails.

The rules are as follows (subject to change):

• Have to purchase a bike for ~$0-$150ish.
• No renting or borrowing bikes. Have to show the used ad.
• Have to run the bike as-is - no changing tires, suspension, brakes etc. You can fix the chain or gears to get it pedaling - but no upgrading the components (IE, no swapping 9 speed for 11 speed etc).
• Everyone will need to take a turn doing timing at the bottom.
• The bike has to roll across the last finish line.
• TBD - chug half a beer at the finish lines, you finish time is when you put the cup down.

I just found a Specialized Hardrock for sale, for $100. Hoping I can snag it, though it looks tiny. Judging by the chain, its been stored outside....

Our buddy from Calgary wants to join, so we'll do this in September.

 

[toodles]

Please make a recap vid.

Waitaminut - what time in September and where?

 

[canadmos]

Please make a recap vid.

Waitaminut - what time in September and where?

I think second week of September and here north of Toronto.

We will welcome additional riders.

I'm thinking of changing the $ limit on the bike. Maybe have a more flexible rule, something like for every $5 over $125 you will add 10 seconds to your total time?

Or?

 

[toodles]

I think second week of September and here north of Toronto.

We will welcome additional riders.

I'm thinking of changing the $ limit on the bike. Maybe have a more flexible rule, something like for every $5 over $125 you will add 10 seconds to your total time?

Or?

I'll be in BC I think. Toronto might be a bit out of the way haha.

The price limit can be tricky to do depending on the second hand market in your area. If you're worried about people sand-bagging by spending more, just make them swap bikes every stage or something. Or a beer skulling penalty if you exceed the purchase limit...

If people don't wanna "waste" money on buying a crapper you can get everyone to race on pump track or DJ bikes.

 

[canadmos]

Oh boy, for $150 the selection of bikes seem to be extremely......sketch.

This is going to be interesting.


I've messaged every Specialized Rockhopper for sale and not a single lead.

 

[canadmos]

Consulting the dudes about raising the spend limit to $250 (or I just take a penalty).

I think I have found the bike.
Talked this guy down to $225.

Which is fitting, as I have a Norco Manik frame in my mom's shed still. Had the same bike back in the day, though mine originally came with the shittiest Drop Off Triple.
Here she is after I swapped to a coil 36.

 

[Westy]

Which is fitting, as I have a Norco Manik frame in my mom's shed still.

Sell it to someone and buy it back for $100

 

[canadmos]

Sell it to someone and buy it back for $100

Besides not having any parts for it, I don't think it'd survive very long. The chainstay was pretty much worn through and gouged to shit from the chain getting sucked up on every ride. What a fun time those days were.

 

[canadmos]

Nevermind, Jerry there did a rug pull and sold the bike to someone else, even after I told him "Deal, it's mine!"

 

[canadmos]

Just over one week until the big game day.

Only one of us has a bike. Bunch of LOSERS!

I'm going to pickup mine from some dude tomorrow morning. She's a beaut!

 

[canadmos]

What have I done

Dry rotted tires - check
Brake pads that are probably as hard as frozen hockey pucks - check
2 bolt sketch stem - check
Ugly seat - check


Hopefully the pedals aren't stuck...

 

[canadmos]

We did it today.

No one broke and no bikes broke, surprisingly. Buddy found out quickly how little braking his single back brake worked. We had to adjust it so that the brake was dragging, or else there was no stopping.

Didn't end up timing it, just had fun and had some beer. The dude who said he'd come and do the timing, bailed, of course.

We got some snobby looks by two xc people. And one old dude started getting into us about coming I'm there with "no brakes".