TLD AIR is it worth it?

frango · Oct 12, 2009

It seems You were lucky, man!
Your helmet did what it was suppesed to do... absorded the impact.
I am not an expert in MX helmets, but from what I've seen, You do not ride rock gardens on MX bike so often ike You do on DH bike. (Ertzberh Rodeo doesn't count

).
So, MX helmets may be done in a little bit different way than MTB helmets... my point is, that they maybe too strong. And another crash may lead to serious brain damage :|
But, it's just my theory

PS1. ventilation is another story

matsO · Oct 12, 2009

Seems like a serious crash, I have bumped my head against some rocks in my time but never with this kind of destruction of the helmet.

Why not go for the POC stuff? they have penetration protection as well as some other smart design.

www.pocski.com

frango · Oct 12, 2009

Better than e.i Giro Remedy CF or TLD D3?

juanbeegas · Oct 12, 2009

I think it a little weird that it's mostly the bike riders that usually turn to TLD when they look into Moto helmets and the moto riders look at other brands. Not trying to start anything here, just interested in thoughts on this...
To the OP, you'd probably do better with the Fox V3, or the Shoei VFX-W. Both are light, very well vented, constructed real good and cost about the same as you'd pay for the TLD Air.

KavuRider · Oct 12, 2009

I have a TLD MX helmet.
Honestly, I'm less with impressed with it and I won't be buying another one. Its light, but the faceguard is too close to my chin and it just hasn't felt comfortable.

I had a SixSixOne Flight that I liked a lot better, I'll probably pick one of those up when its time to retire the TLD.

KavuRider · Oct 12, 2009

Trekrules said:
Was that the SE(2) or AIR?,from the TLD AIR review by some MX mag the AIR is much comfortable than the SE and overall light weight makes it more pratical than the SE

Oops, you're right, SE helmet.

Ignore my post. :imstupid:

ChrisKring · Oct 12, 2009

I haven't tried the TLD Air yet. However, I really like my SE2. In fact, I bought another on closeout a month ago since my old one is 2 years old and nearing time for replacement.

With regards to the above poster, it is important to find a helmet that fits good. If the TLD didn't fit you good, that doesn't mean it will not be good for someone else.

Last month's dirt rider magazine had independant helmet test. Take a look at it.

CBJ · Oct 12, 2009

Trekrules said:
Was that the SE(2) or AIR?,from the TLD AIR review by some MX mag the AIR is much comfortable than the SE and overall light weight makes it more pratical than the SE

Weight? Practical? Problem with neck fatigued?

Jeremy R · Oct 12, 2009

CBJ said:
Problem with neck fatigued?

Biffff · Oct 12, 2009

I have a 2009 History SE-2 and love this helmet. I found the quality of my old Remedy Carbon was better then a D2, but the SE-2 makes the remedy seem like a WalMart helmet. The Fit is superb. The quality of the liner is top notch, as well as the exterior finish. These air amazing helmets. I hear the Air is very good as well, and fits the same as the SE-2, you just don't get the helmet bag, Ti hardwear, replaceable nose piece and extra visor.

Biffff · Oct 12, 2009

CBJ said:
Weight? Practical? Problem with neck fatigued?

all in people's head.....we are talking about a half pound maybe for a Helmet thats on your head for 5 minutes tops before you take it off.

profro · Oct 12, 2009

KavuRider said:
I have a TLD MX helmet.
Honestly, I'm less with impressed with it and I won't be buying another one. Its light, but the faceguard is too close to my chin and it just hasn't felt comfortable.

I had a SixSixOne Flight that I liked a lot better, I'll probably pick one of those up when its time to retire the TLD.

ChrisKring said:
With regards to the above poster, it is important to find a helmet that fits good. If the TLD didn't fit you good, that doesn't mean it will not be good for someone else.

Yep, I had a 661 before a TLD and the 661 was a horrible fit for me, whereas the TLD fits perfect.

ronan · Oct 12, 2009

Trekrules said:
The TLD AIR is a highly vented MX helmet it has 12 individual intake channels and 5 large independent exhaust vents.

honestly looking at your posts on pinkbike and here its pretty obvious you just want a reason to buy a tld air

if i was looking to buy a new helmet i would look no further then the poc downhill helmets, they know whats up

Jettj45 · Oct 12, 2009

SNELL/DOT approved helmets generally do not absorb low speed crashes (~30- 40mph) as good as the bike specific helmets. The majority of SNELL tests are high force small area impact tests. I am not sure the specifics of what DOT does for there tests, I've only come across the SNELL test standards. I currently have a SNELL/DOT approved helmet and will be getting a TLD D2 to replace it.

When you hit a tree with your head with an DOT or SNELL helmet, or fall in a rock garden, or off a drop, etc... the helmet doesn't conform to your head at the speed you are going because it is overkill. The helmet does not conform to your skull, where as a normal helmet with a softer core will help decelerate your head better so you don't smack your skull, giving you a concussion. I know this to be true because it happened to me ( head into a tree, got a mild concussion). You can not expect a helmet to have a long life if you crash hard, it will get damaged(that's its job), better it then you.

ASTM(American Society for Testing and Materials) has been gearing there helmet tests for the past 2 years more specifically to downhill type crashes. Helmets like the TLD D2(composite), fox rampage, giro remedy and so on...

Bottom line, SNELL/DOT helmets are not ideal for Downhill riding.

CBJ · Oct 12, 2009

This argument comes up again and again

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88888&highlight=helmet

but no evidence to support the claims?

Personally I have over the years taken plenty of his with my SE including one broken one and the SE have given great protection.

frango · Oct 12, 2009

Jettj45 said:
SNELL/DOT approved helmets generally do not absorb low speed crashes (~30- 40mph) as good as the bike specific helmets. The majority of SNELL tests are high force small area impact tests. I am not sure the specifics of what DOT does for there tests, I've only come across the SNELL test standards. I currently have a SNELL/DOT approved helmet and will be getting a TLD D2 to replace it.
...

This is what I was thinking, about.

ChrisKring · Oct 12, 2009

Jettj45 said:
SNELL/DOT approved helmets generally do not absorb low speed crashes (~30- 40mph) as good as the bike specific helmets. The majority of SNELL tests are high force small area impact tests. I am not sure the specifics of what DOT does for there tests, I've only come across the SNELL test standards. I currently have a SNELL/DOT approved helmet and will be getting a TLD D2 to replace it.

When you hit a tree with your head with an DOT or SNELL helmet, or fall in a rock garden, or off a drop, etc... the helmet doesn't conform to your head at the speed you are going because it is overkill. The helmet does not conform to your skull, where as a normal helmet with a softer core will help decelerate your head better so you don't smack your skull, giving you a concussion. I know this to be true because it happened to me ( head into a tree, got a mild concussion). You can not expect a helmet to have a long life if you crash hard, it will get damaged(that's its job), better it then you.

ASTM(American Society for Testing and Materials) has been gearing there helmet tests for the past 2 years more specifically to downhill type crashes. Helmets like the TLD D2(composite), fox rampage, giro remedy and so on...

Bottom line, SNELL/DOT helmets are not ideal for Downhill riding.

edit
WARNING: NERD INFO/DISCUSSION Below. Don't read this.

Do you have a copy of the ASTM 1952 standard? I would like to see the impact speeds that they are testing at and what the max g or HIC (d) is.

For what it's worth, the snell speeds are not that high. It's not 30-40 mph. The new 2010 standard is 17.3 mph for the first impact. I think the old standard was the same but you had to convert from Joules assuming the specified head mass.

Here is the spec: http://www.smf.org/standards/m/2010/m2010_final.htm

Anyway, it appears that Snell lowered their max g-load to 275g. Based on the Wayne State studies, you have good probablity of surviving at less than 300g's. However, over 150 g is bad. The ECE requirement targets are in the form of HIC (d). You need to be less than 150G to meet a 1000 HIC (d) requirement (this is the FMVSS 201 requirement for cars.)

For now, I am hedging on preventing a catastrophic injury from a high speed impact rather than an injury from a tip over. While it is possible to protect for both, not many people will buy a helmet to do that since it needs to be bigger. I would be happy to buy a helmet that was an inch thicker.

Again, I would like a copy of the ASTM spec if anyone has one. I tried to pull a copy at work but for whatever reason we don't have access to that particular ASTM spec.

Biffff · Oct 12, 2009

Jettj45 said:
SNELL/DOT approved helmets generally do not absorb low speed crashes (~30- 40mph) as good as the bike specific helmets. The majority of SNELL tests are high force small area impact tests. I am not sure the specifics of what DOT does for there tests, I've only come across the SNELL test standards. I currently have a SNELL/DOT approved helmet and will be getting a TLD D2 to replace it.

When you hit a tree with your head with an DOT or SNELL helmet, or fall in a rock garden, or off a drop, etc... the helmet doesn't conform to your head at the speed you are going because it is overkill. The helmet does not conform to your skull, where as a normal helmet with a softer core will help decelerate your head better so you don't smack your skull, giving you a concussion. I know this to be true because it happened to me ( head into a tree, got a mild concussion). You can not expect a helmet to have a long life if you crash hard, it will get damaged(that's its job), better it then you.

ASTM(American Society for Testing and Materials) has been gearing there helmet tests for the past 2 years more specifically to downhill type crashes. Helmets like the TLD D2(composite), fox rampage, giro remedy and so on...

Bottom line, SNELL/DOT helmets are not ideal for Downhill riding.

I've never understood these theories...........It would make sense if everybody on a Moto was going 100mph all the time, but seriously, people ride motos at slower speeds on wooded singletrack all the time, therefore moto helmets are designed for these situations as well. Your heads not going to differentiate between what bike your riding....Moto/DH if you fall off and hit your head you want the most protection to save your life. DOT Snelll helmets do this the best. D2's are like flimsy little toys. I'd be scared to ride at higher speeds with one on.

Mike Like Bikes · Oct 12, 2009

i don't mean to thread jack but has any one ran one with a leatt brace?

tlproject7 · Oct 12, 2009

i have se2, fits. bought a large and then got the medium replacemt cheek pads because it was a little big. fits great, really commfy, especially after a d2. and hey mike like bikes, i where a leatt with it, if u wanna know i have a few tips that i havent heard any one else mention.... but dont feel like writing them if ur not still looking back at this thread

Mike Like Bikes · Oct 12, 2009

i m all ears

freeridefool · Oct 12, 2009

For dh Ive been using my fox v3. Its heavier than my mace dh helmet but I like it alot better. For moto my shoei is the ****. Id wear it when I dh but I dont want to **** it up. As someone said earlier, its pretty rare to see tld lids at moto races and you never see a trails rider on a tld. If your going to use a moto helmet for dh purposes there are better options. My roommate and I got a killer deal on a few fox v3's that why I use it. It just happens to be pretty comfy.

dilzy · Oct 13, 2009

Trekrules said:
yeah that makes all sense and DOT SNELL helmets are designed to take the larger impacts better than a bicycle helmet and you don't eaven have to go 30mph,my helmet broke because it couldn't absorb the large impact force eaven the inner foam shell cracked during impact.

They're supposed to break and crush. This is what is absorbing the energy is the fracturing of the chemical bonds between the materials molecules that release heat.

If it didn't break up or crush and instead sprung back, you would get the same force straight back into your head minus a small amount depending on the materials damping co-efficient.

matsO · Oct 13, 2009

dilzy said:
They're supposed to break and crush. This is what is absorbing the energy is the fracturing of the chemical bonds between the materials molecules that release heat.

If it didn't break up or crush and instead sprung back, you would get the same force straight back into your head minus a small amount depending on the materials damping co-efficient.

What he said!

And now I think its time you go and just buy your TLD Air, that too will break into pieces if you crash hard.

ChrisKring · Oct 13, 2009

Yes, the foam inner is supposed to break, crush, etc during an impact. Otherwise if it rebounded, the energy could theoretically could be twice since the head velocity would be going the opposite direction at the same speed as the initial impact.

binary visions · Oct 13, 2009

Trekrules said:
yeah that makes all sense and DOT SNELL helmets are designed to take the larger impacts better than a bicycle helmet and you don't eaven have to go 30mph,my helmet broke because it couldn't absorb the large impact force eaven the inner foam shell cracked during impact.

Dude, you asked for advice and every post was responded to with "...but the TLD AIR is <rebuttal to the post>." It's pretty clear that you want someone to say "YES IT'S THE BEST HELMET EVAR BUY ONE INSTANTLY."

Just buy your TLD. Seriously. Nobody cares. Even if you have no other reason for buying it than you want one. Here, I'm telling you: "YES IT'S THE BEST HELMET EVAR." You can quote me on it.

This is the second post complaining about the helmet breaking - they're SUPPOSED to break. That's the whole point. If it doesn't break, it just means it didn't absorb a lot of force - so either you didn't hit it that hard or it's a poorly designed helmet and all of that force went into your noggin instead of the helmet.

Westy · Oct 13, 2009

kOlsen · Oct 13, 2009

Westy said:

Awesome helmet!!

Is this the 2011 TLD SE Air?

Jettj45 · Oct 13, 2009

kOlsen said:
Awesome helmet!!

Is this the 2011 TLD SE Air?

No that's the 2011 TLD LB Air

Jettj45 · Oct 13, 2009

ChrisKring said:
edit
WARNING: NERD INFO/DISCUSSION Below. Don't read this.

Do you have a copy of the ASTM 1952 standard? I would like to see the impact speeds that they are testing at and what the max g or HIC (d) is.

For what it's worth, the snell speeds are not that high. It's not 30-40 mph. The new 2010 standard is 17.3 mph for the first impact. I think the old standard was the same but you had to convert from Joules assuming the specified head mass.

Here is the spec: http://www.smf.org/standards/m/2010/m2010_final.htm

Anyway, it appears that Snell lowered their max g-load to 275g. Based on the Wayne State studies, you have good probablity of surviving at less than 300g's. However, over 150 g is bad. The ECE requirement targets are in the form of HIC (d). You need to be less than 150G to meet a 1000 HIC (d) requirement (this is the FMVSS 201 requirement for cars.)

For now, I am hedging on preventing a catastrophic injury from a high speed impact rather than an injury from a tip over. While it is possible to protect for both, not many people will buy a helmet to do that since it needs to be bigger. I would be happy to buy a helmet that was an inch thicker.

Again, I would like a copy of the ASTM spec if anyone has one. I tried to pull a copy at work but for whatever reason we don't have access to that particular ASTM spec.

If you are willing to pay $30 here are the ASTM Downhill specific test standards.

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1952.htm

Also do you know of anywhere I can look for correlative data between G forces and sustainable damage to your head? Because even 275G's seems very high to me. For a comparative point of view there was a study done measuring the various G's to the head in a NFL football practice game. They ranged from 60-100G's which are said to be concussion inducing.

ChrisKring · Oct 13, 2009

Jettj45 said:
If you are willing to pay $30 here are the ASTM Downhill specific test standards.

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1952.htm

Also do you know of anywhere I can look for correlative data between G forces and sustainable damage to your head? Because even 275G's seems very high to me. For a comparative point of view there was a study done measuring the various G's to the head in a NFL football practice game. They ranged from 60-100G's which are said to be concussion inducing.

Yeah, I didn't want to pay $30 for it. I really should but it would be nice if we could just get the test procedure and requirements.

The correlative data is all from studies that Wayne State University did on cadavers. That's what the FMVSS uses. Snell has a bunch of good reading on their website including justification for the g loads. Basically, they are trying to prevent permanent injury while keeping the helmet at a reasonable size that people will wear.

Assuming a perfect absorber, you need to be sub 140 g to meet FMVSS requirement of less than 1000 HIC (d). That is the mathamatically derived max.

I know the NFL is taking a proactive role in safety and that is awesome. I wish that the AMA would do that too since USA Cycling will never have the budget to do it. Basically, you need to do coorelation studies (accident reconstruction). It's a long process.

Jettj45 · Oct 13, 2009

ChrisKring said:
Yeah, I didn't want to pay $30 for it. I really should but it would be nice if we could just get the test procedure and requirements.

The correlative data is all from studies that Wayne State University did on cadavers. That's what the FMVSS uses. Snell has a bunch of good reading on their website including justification for the g loads. Basically, they are trying to prevent permanent injury while keeping the helmet at a reasonable size that people will wear.

Assuming a perfect absorber, you need to be sub 140 g to meet FMVSS requirement of less than 1000 HIC (d). That is the mathamatically derived max.

I know the NFL is taking a proactive role in safety and that is awesome. I wish that the AMA would do that too since USA Cycling will never have the budget to do it. Basically, you need to do coorelation studies (accident reconstruction). It's a long process.

Exactly, a lot of the studies really do not follow over for our sport specifically. If I end up buying the ASTM test standards ill post them.

1000 HIC has a 90% chance of causing minor or moderate damage.

Minor – where there is skull trauma without loss of consciousness; fracture of nose and teeth;
superficial face injuries

Moderate – skull trauma with or without dislocated skull fracture and brief loss of consciousness.
Fracture of facial bones without dislocation; deep wound(s)

Just posting for the benefit of people who don't know what were talking about haha.

buildyourown · Oct 28, 2009

I love my SE. I'm on my second one. First one died after lawn darting and doing a very long face slide on a-line.

Neck fatigue isn't an issue. Your neck gets stronger and adjusts. Stronger muscles mean more resistant to injury.

TLD AIR is it worth it?

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