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Todays referendum

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
...will not only be about reducing "the work week to 36 hours, allow for presidential reelection, recognize new forms of property, and give more power to grass roots communal councils". Nor is it about "simply confronting the pawns of imperialism" Chavez says.

A big day not only for Venezuela as I belive this will in near future affect the rest of South America and with time the rest of the world. Latin America is truly in front holding the light showing us that another world is possible, striking blows to those saying capitalism is the only way. Let's light up Rome.
(link to an easier read article below)


Pro-Constitutional Reform Closes Campaign with Massive Rally in Venezuela

December 1st 2007, by Kiraz Janicke - Venezuelanalysis.com


Caracas, December 1, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com) - In a hard-hitting speech Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez told over 500,000 supporters at the final campaign rally in favor of the proposed constitutional reform on Friday, "If the ‘yes' vote wins on Sunday and the Venezuelan oligarchy, playing the [U.S.] empire's game, comes with their little stories of fraud," he will suspend all oil shipments to the U.S immediately. "The U.S. will not receive one drop of oil," he declared. Chavez also warned private media against promoting violence and destabilization after the referendum.

Beginning in the early hours of the morning, a sea of red filled Avenida Bolivar, the capital's principal boulevard and overflowed into Avenidas Mexico, Lecuna, San Martin, and Universidad, dwarfing an opposition rally of around 200,000 the day before, as Chavez supporters wearing T-shirts emblazoned with ‘Yes to the reforms' danced and sang as they waited for Chavez who spoke at 5 in the afternoon.

Perusing the crowd through a pair of binoculars, Chavez announced, "The avenida Bolivar is full, overflowing on the north and south, over there avenida Lecuna and avenida Universidad are full. The Bolivarian people are here saying ‘Yes.'"

Chavez told his supporters that the reforms which would reduce the work week to 36 hours, allow for presidential reelection, recognize new forms of property, and give more power to grass roots communal councils, will "open the path to socialism."

He also emphasized that the vote on Sunday represents more than simply a vote on the reforms. "To vote ‘yes', is a vote for Chavez and the revolution, to vote ‘No' is a vote for Bush," he said.

"We are not simply confronting the pawns of imperialism, those that play the dirty game of imperialism here," he said referring to the opposition, "Our true enemy is US imperialism."

"This Sunday we will give another knockout to George W. Bush." he added.

However, Chavez said, "No-one should be surprised if the anti-Chavistas refused to recognize the result," after a video released by Communications Minister Jesse Chacon on Thursday showed opposition leaders calling supporters to reject the results of the referendum on Sunday and create "pockets of protest" all around the country to generate a political crisis for the government.

"I hope this does not happen, but if it does, the revolutionary government will respond like it should, like a revolutionary government, together with the people," Chavez said and called on his supporters to stay mobilized in the streets after the referendum in order to prevent opposition inspired disturbances.

"They say they will only recognize the results if they win ... and they will take to the streets," Chavez told the rally. "Fine. We'll see you in the streets then, we are not afraid."

Amidst fears that Venezuela could descend into violence if the vote is close, including warnings of a potential civil war from Cuban leader, Fidel Castro, Chavez said, "My life belongs the the Venezuelan people. I am a soldier, and if I have to pick up a rifle to defend Venezuela, then I will."

Recalling the 2002 oil industry shutdown by the opposition, which caused an estimated $10 billion loss to the Venezuelan economy, Chavez said he had also ordered the military to secure oil fields and other installations on Sunday night to prevent any acts of sabotage.

He also spoke of the destabilization and misrepresentation of Venezuela by the international corporate media and threatened, "If any international channel comes here to take part in an operation by imperialism against Venezuela your reporters will be thrown out of the country, they will not be able to work here," Chavez said. "People at CNN, listen carefully: This is just a warning."

If the opposition private TV channel Globovision, "takes part in the game of imperialism" and if they violate Venezuelan law by publishing premature or false election results before polls close, they will be taken off air immediately, Chavez said as the crowd responded, chanting, "That is how one governs."

Dr Graciela Angarita, an orthopedic surgeon who attended the rally also criticized the international media portrayal of Venezuela and told Venezuelanalysis.com, "The truth is the majority of people support the president and the reforms."

"The government has done a lot for the people," she said and pointed to the social missions, which provide free education and healthcare. She explained that under previous governments there was a lot of repression and the poor were excluded.

"This is a revolution that is going to spread across all of Latin America," she added.

After the rally Chavez supporters took over Plaza Altimira in the upper middle-class, predominantly opposition suburb of Chacao in a street party that lasted late into the night.



http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2942
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
Ah, yes, a third-world dictator cloaking his consolidation of absolute rule in leftist language of the "revolution." How refreshing.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22850209-663,00.html

President for life...with bread and circuses for the poor, intimidation against the thinking middle class. That's really progress, as long as it pisses off GWB, eh? Oh, wait, he'll be out of office soon, like an actual democratically-elected leader, and the Venezuelans will have to spend the rest of their life with Castro II, The Sequel: Hugo Chavez.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Ah, yes, a third-world dictator cloaking his consolidation of absolute rule in leftist language of the "revolution." How refreshing.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22850209-663,00.html

President for life...with bread and circuses for the poor, intimidation against the thinking middle class. That's really progress, as long as it pisses off GWB, eh? Oh, wait, he'll be out of office soon, like an actual democratically-elected leader, and the Venezuelans will have to spend the rest of their life with Castro II, The Sequel: Hugo Chavez.
I digress, however, I'm withholding judgment on this one. I'm waiting on his true intentions to show through.

The "president for life" crap is just repeated in the media...it removes term limits. Not like plenty of other Western nations don't have term limits, either. And don't go spouting off on that "DEMOCRACY!111" bull****...you know as well as I do that it's just rhetoric that doesn't mean sh!t (see: Hamas, past 50 years of CIA involvement, etc). As long as a nation remains subservient to American interests, they are our friends, as long as not, they're some horrific dictatorship hell-bent on burning down the suburbs.

But former allies have split with the self-styled revolutionary over a constitutional overhaul that would also let him censor the media and detain people without charges if he declares an emergency.
Huh, sounds familiar... :rolleyes:
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Hi intentions have shown through. He wishes to make himself ruler for life. Sounds exactly like a dictator to me.

"We shall hold elections for president! I shall, however, remain ruler for life."

If you remove term limits, you can effectively keep yourself in office as long as you want by manipulating the political system, which Chavez WILL do.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
"We shall hold elections for president! I shall, however, remain ruler for life."
Source? Can't find it anywhere...

It just seems entertaining that this American admin. and many of its supporters/supporters of its policies are so critical of Chavez, when many of his policies and many of theirs run such parallel paths.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
when many of his policies and many of theirs run such parallel paths.
So you're equating detention of prisoners of war with detention of domestic politcal dissidents.

It's true, they both have the word "detention" in them, so I guess you're right.

Or are you equating proponents of globalized capitalism with advocates of dictatorship dressed with left-wing trappings?

Or are you just desperate to prove that anyone who opposes Bush can't be all bad?

Look, I'm not saying US foreign policy, current or past, esp. vis a vis Latin America, is all roses--or that we haven't meddled in affairs, supporting people far worse than Chavez and allowing some pretty atrocious stuff to happen--but let's please keep some perspective. Chavez is no different than the myriad dictators before him, or that will come after him. Seize power in the name of the "people," then use that as justification to cement yourself in place and do what you like afterward.

Like the American prez or not, he's out in 8 years max. He's also got other branches of government to contend with. Yet people who decry Bush's consolidation/abuse of executive power seem to love Chavez. Go figure.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Ah, yes, a third-world dictator cloaking his consolidation of absolute rule in leftist language of the "revolution." How refreshing.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22850209-663,00.html

President for life...with bread and circuses for the poor, intimidation against the thinking middle class. That's really progress, as long as it pisses off GWB, eh? Oh, wait, he'll be out of office soon, like an actual democratically-elected leader, and the Venezuelans will have to spend the rest of their life with Castro II, The Sequel: Hugo Chavez.
I can't belive somebody can be so ignorant or misslead as you when you call Chavez a dictator. He has won three internationally monitored landslide victories since 1998, nobody that's interested in world news can possibly have missed this. Then you talk about "absolute rule" while part of the referendum is about giving away power from the top of the pyramid down to the lowest grass-rots community council level.. WTF, you must be wicked?!!

President for life? You make it sound like he don't have to win elections every now and then to stay in office (maybe I just read you wrong?). We don't have term limits in Sweden either, the bitch Fredrik Reinfelt can stay as prime minister for the rest of his life if he wins every election. So why not Chavez, because he pisses off GWB?

Doesn't GWB deserve it? Not only that, but he should have his own Nürnberg trial and hang for what he's done in Iraq (he's worthy of a real trial though and not one like they gave Saddam Hussein or Slobodan Milosevic).

What do you say next, "bread and circuses for the poor", are you downplaying what he's done for the poor? Have you ever been hungry or not being able to see a doctor or go to school, and known that this fate will also be the one of your future generations?

"Intimidation against the thinking middle class", yeh, you're talking about those doctors that have sworn oaths to save lives but have refused to go to workingclass neighborhoods to do just that? In this case I belive you could be ignorant or missinformed. The patience the Chavez government has shown with all the **** the opposition has done wouldn't have been allowed any where else in this world, not Sweden, not USA, nowhere!

They've not only made a cupe d'tat against his democraticly elected government and walked away unpunished, and not only have they also caused the country a $10 billion loss after shutting the country down for 3 months in 2002, but since then they've been caught many times being funded and run by the countrys biggest threat, the US (this is known thanks to the Freedom of Information Act).

Intimidation against the thinking middle class.. Thinking but not feeling, ey? Cus they sure ain't showing no love for their compatriotes.

And NO, as much as I dislike the world dictator you call president I think Chavezes good deeds for the majority of his countrymen stand for them selves. Him pissing of GWB is just a nice Saturday candy bonus.

Anyways, in the article I posted (from a Chavez supporting site) it raised that +100.000 demonstrator number, given by the Herald Sun, to around 200.000. Something I find worth mentioning. On the other side, the Herald Sun haven't reported (not that I can find anyways) of yesterdays counter demonstration for the Yes-side of +500.000 people. That's another thing worth mentioning.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Hi intentions have shown through. He wishes to make himself ruler for life. Sounds exactly like a dictator to me.

"We shall hold elections for president! I shall, however, remain ruler for life."

If you remove term limits, you can effectively keep yourself in office as long as you want by manipulating the political system, which Chavez WILL do.
You have a turd on your lens.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
So you're equating detention of prisoners of war with detention of domestic politcal dissidents.

It's true, they both have the word "detention" in them, so I guess you're right.
Dismissing the rest of your babbling, the only detention I know of is that of the gents who attempted a coup. I get the feeling the same thing would happen here...Treason is a capital offense in the US. :think: What he's done is no worse than your beloved PATRIOT Act.

That said, I neither love or hate Chavez. I don't know what to think yet...we shall see if the power corrupts. I don't agree with some of what he has done, like stocking the judicial branch with loyalists and shutting down the TV station calling for his ouster (and the emergency powers equivalent to the PATRIOT Act mentioned earlier), but on the other hand he is doing a lot of good and instituting changes that could greatly help Latin America.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Dismissing the rest of your babbling, the only detention I know of is that of the gents who attempted a coup. I get the feeling the same thing would happen here...Treason is a capital offense in the US. :think: What he's done is no worse than your beloved PATRIOT Act.

That said, I neither love or hate Chavez. I don't know what to think yet...we shall see if the power corrupts. I don't agree with some of what he has done, like stocking the judicial branch with loyalists and shutting down the TV station calling for his ouster, but on the other hand he is doing a lot of good and instituting changes that could greatly help Latin America.
People said the same of Castro. Yet, Cuban citizens risk life and limb to get off that island.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
So you're equating detention of prisoners of war with detention of domestic politcal dissidents.

It's true, they both have the word "detention" in them, so I guess you're right.

Or are you equating proponents of globalized capitalism with advocates of dictatorship dressed with left-wing trappings?

Or are you just desperate to prove that anyone who opposes Bush can't be all bad?

Look, I'm not saying US foreign policy, current or past, esp. vis a vis Latin America, is all roses--or that we haven't meddled in affairs, supporting people far worse than Chavez and allowing some pretty atrocious stuff to happen--but let's please keep some perspective. Chavez is no different than the myriad dictators before him, or that will come after him. Seize power in the name of the "people," then use that as justification to cement yourself in place and do what you like afterward.

Like the American prez or not, he's out in 8 years max. He's also got other branches of government to contend with. Yet people who decry Bush's consolidation/abuse of executive power seem to love Chavez. Go figure.
As far as I know Bush has only used his rule by decree only once, when he stoped congress from letting stem cell search be legal. That could be vewed as a positive thing for Bush, or a negative thing for your parliament that shows a lack of democracy in action. Depends how one chooses to look at it.

Chavezes decree was granted by a democraticly elected parliament and was limited to specific stuff. Taking into consideration off all the destabilizating actions Venezuela has and still is under by a number of US backed groups I belive this rule by decree must be accepted for the futura and wellbeing of the democracy.

What atrocious stuff are you talking about? Are you confusing V with Iraq?

Chavez hasn't cemented him self in power yet nor has he done as he pleased. If that day comes that he abolishes democratic procedures and start commiting atrocites, THEN we can both say something. To this day GWB has done both these things and I don't hear you lippin.

About detention, I'm not 100% sure about this but hasn't your prez the right to do these things under special occasion when FEMA runs the country?

I don't know if it exists any person who is all bad but in a comparisson Chavez vs Bush? You probably are missinformed about what's going on i Venezuela, to an extent. Mike, Chavez might not be all good, but he sure is thousand fold better that GWB. Your average poor Venezuelan has today a brighter future than your average poor US-American.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Dismissing the rest of your babbling, the only detention I know of is that of the gents who attempted a coup. I get the feeling the same thing would happen here...Treason is a capital offense in the US. :think: What he's done is no worse than your beloved PATRIOT Act.

That said, I neither love or hate Chavez. I don't know what to think yet...we shall see if the power corrupts. I don't agree with some of what he has done, like stocking the judicial branch with loyalists and shutting down the TV station calling for his ouster, but on the other hand he is doing a lot of good and instituting changes that could greatly help Latin America.
Oh, power will corrupt him too just like any human, but he has already prooven that he wants to distribute that power down the ladder. I don't see this happening in Sweden..

And no, he didn't shut that TV station down. Not even after they played one of the biggest roles in the excecution of that coup. He didn't either do anything later on when their obvious hatred and dissinformation continued for years after. He just didn't renew their licence when it expired. They still broadcast with their radio station and were allowed to go cyber emediately after that "shut down".

About the judicial branch I can't speak of right now.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
People said the same of Castro. Yet, Cuban citizens risk life and limb to get off that island.
Yeh, but 9 out of 11 million Cubans went out demonstrating for Cuba a few May's ago. Your not actually trying to say that you have consensus on all things in Canada to 100%? Cuba doesn't differ in that sense to any other country and it's people.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Ah, yes, a third-world dictator cloaking his consolidation of absolute rule in leftist language of the "revolution." How refreshing.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22850209-663,00.html

President for life...with bread and circuses for the poor, intimidation against the thinking middle class. That's really progress, as long as it pisses off GWB, eh? Oh, wait, he'll be out of office soon, like an actual democratically-elected leader, and the Venezuelans will have to spend the rest of their life with Castro II, The Sequel: Hugo Chavez.
How much does lapdog pay these days?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
What he's done is no worse than your beloved PATRIOT Act.
My what? I don't recall proposing to the PATRIOT act...or even voicing too much of an opinion on it. That said, I think it's kind of a bugbear for those opposing Bush... it really doesn't do all that much.
Ed: Forgot...nor does it have anything to do with expanding executive power in times of emergency. So where are you going with this?

Fluff said:
How much does lapdog pay these days?
Apparently not much. How am I a lapdog? I've voiced my disagreement with virtually every major foreign-policy decision Bush has ever made, and many of the domestic ones. I do agree with the use of contractors to protect civilians in a war zone [of an ill-conceived and disasterous conflict]...maybe that's it?

What happened to the days when we used to agree on things? (I even ran a search for nostalgia's sake... ) Then again, maybe it was only that once. But I do recall both of us being pretty aghast at the start of a war in Iraq, too.

I love how when you voice your own opinion, people pigeonhole you into being some sort of archetype that they want you to be.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
To be fair, most of us risk life and limb for recreation, so...

And, most Cubans I have met are proud to be from Cuba.
They are proud to be Cuban, they are not proud of their countries leadership, policies and environment. They convert trucks and plastic drums into makeshift rafts to escape a country they cannot legally leave.

Sounds pretty desperate to me.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Shoudl he win, Chavez will have PERSONAL control of the central bank, the power to unilaterally dismiss ELECTED officials and replace them with Chavez loyalists. He has announced he will be president until he is 95.

So yes, this is his exact plan. He has announced all of these plans publicly in recent speeches.
 

bohorec

Monkey
Jun 26, 2007
327
0
About Cuba, might be poor but still much better going than other islands in their neigbourhood (also consider us embargo).

I agree with you about about Chavez, just another control freak, using socialism as a deception for poor and uneducated people (don't see any light here)

But the issue is why there are so many people supporting him(rethorical)?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
As far as I know Bush has only used his rule by decree only once, when he stoped congress from letting stem cell search be legal. That could be vewed as a positive thing for Bush, or a negative thing for your parliament that shows a lack of democracy in action. Depends how one chooses to look at it.
Uh, again, scrape bong resin from brain. Stem cell research is legal in the US. Not fully funded by Congress, however. (Not that I think that's a wise choice, but we have a legal system and must abide by it.) Nor can George Bush "rule by decree." Dunno what you're talking about specifically...perhaps the Constitutionally-defined power of the president to veto a bill? Part of the checks and balances which keep the government from becoming a dictatorship?

What atrocious stuff are you talking about? Are you confusing V with Iraq?
Yeah, I confused Iraq and Venezuela. Boy, I hate it when I do that.

For, well, you, you don't seem to know much about just how crappy US policy has been for Latin America. Read "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" by Chris Hitchens. I guarantee you'll like it. Or just google/wiki "Operation Condor." Most stuff is pretty slanted, but it's hard to put a positive spin on a lot of it.

Chavez hasn't cemented him self in power yet
Just wait. The guy idolizes Castro and is on the standard path to dictator-ship. Idi Amin had the "will of the people" for a while, as well, and so has every other dictator in this century and most past.

He has won elections, true. When he doesn't win one day, I guarantee he does not accept the results and uses violence and repression to stay in power. (I can just hear the 2000 election comparisons from the peanut gallery now...)

I'm not going to wait until he's done that to judge it. It's like saying you should let the guy wearing a ski mask and holding a shotgun into your store...he might just be shopping on a cold day on his way to hunt ducks. There's no reason to think he might rob the place...

But in the end, it's the Venezuelan people's issue from within, and the US's issue to comment on/deal with diplomatically from without. I'm not a fan of Chavez...but it's only my opinion. It's not like I vote in Venezuela, or I think the US should try and punish Chavez or the Venezuelans for their choice. Attempts to punish economically are only going to make things worse between the countries.

I just think those of you dancing in Stockholm's streets over this are going to have a rude awakening down the line. We'll see what happens.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
About Cuba, might be poor but still much better going than other islands in their neigbourhood (also consider us embargo).

I agree with you about about Chavez, just another control freak, using socialism as a deception for poor and uneducated people (don't see any light here)

But the issue is why there are so many people supporting him(rethorical)?
Agreed. Something like 90% of Chavez's electorate is poor.

As for the support, there is 2 ways to look at it. On one hand, he IS giving better lives to many of the poor people in his country, there is no question here. They will vote to support him.He is making himself rich in the process.

On the other hand, it sounds like much of his support may be nonexistent. There is rumours of massive voter fraud which may , or may not, be true.

It really wouldn't surprise me as anyone who thinks it is necessary that he be able to remove elected officials, have control of the central bank and be leader for life, sounds like he is on track to become the next south american dictator.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Apparently not much. How am I a lapdog? I've voiced my disagreement with virtually every major foreign-policy decision Bush has ever made, and many of the domestic ones. I do agree with the use of contractors to protect civilians in a war zone [of an ill-conceived and disasterous conflict]...maybe that's it?

What happened to the days when we used to agree on things? (I even ran a search for nostalgia's sake... ) Then again, maybe it was only that once. But I do recall both of us being pretty aghast at the start of a war in Iraq, too.

I love how when you voice your own opinion, people pigeonhole you into being some sort of archetype that they want you to be.
Relax, I was just winding you up. Normally I see good reasoning in your posts even if I may not entirely agree with your position. On this occasion I didn't see the same however. This is why:

So far Chavez has worked within a democracy with elections that have been judged fair and unmanipulated by independent observers. Furthermore there remains in the constitution a clause allowing removal of a president by referendum; this clause inserted at Chavez's behest in a previous constitutional change and he has already gone through that process once.

In terms of his actions Venzuala's economy has grown healthily during his tenure and much of the benefit has been felt by the people generally rather than a small cabal of oligarchs.

So in summary, he is a democratically elected leader who has worked within the democratic system and the constitutional changes are subject to referendum.

And you know something else? This will give him pretty much the same degree of power that Tony Blair had when elected in 1997.

So I see your characterisation and reaction as unreasonable, and my lapdog comment was a playful way of suggesting that you were simply regurgitating the US line about Chavez; a nation that is so proud to be the champion of democracy that it has already supported an attempted coup to depose its most recent bete noir.

But here we go, let's await his military takeover:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7124313.stm
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
From Fluff's link
Mr Chavez described the defeat as a "photo finish", and urged followers not to turn it into a point of conflict.
.......he swiftly conceded and urged the opposition to show restraint.

"To those who voted against my proposal, I thank them and congratulate them," he said. "I ask all of you to go home, know how to handle your victory."
MikeD said:
He has won elections, true. When he doesn't win one day, I guarantee he does not accept the results and uses violence and repression to stay in power.
Hopefully you are wrong. Signs are promising so far.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
From Fluff's link


Hopefully you are wrong. Signs are promising so far.
Hey, I hope I'm wrong, too. I'd be glad to see a prosperous and democratic Venezuela; much more satisfying than being right on the Internet.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Hey, I hope I'm wrong, too. I'd be glad to see a prosperous and democratic Venezuela; much more satisfying than being right on the Internet.
You would be glad? Surely then you should be glad because, to date, that's exactly what you have.
 

rockwool

Turbo Monkey
Apr 19, 2004
2,658
0
Filastin
Yesh, quite a sad day for Venezuela I would say in most cases. I've gotta say I dislike lengthening the presidential term from 6 to 7 years but I find most of those proposals below would have been a clear positive change (in Sweden too).

Cut from two BBC articles:

KEY PROPOSALS
*Indefinite re-election of president, term increased from 6 to 7 years
*Central Bank autonomy ended
*Structure of country's administrative districts reorganised
*Maximum working day cut from 8 hours to 6
*Voting age lowered from 18 to 16
*Social security benefits extended to workers in informal sector
Among some of the main changes are:

Allowing the indefinite re-election of the president - not applicable to any other political post

Increasing the presidential term from six to seven years

Introducing changes to the country's administrative structure

Ending the autonomy of the central bank

Placing the president in charge of administering the country's international reserves

Reducing the maximum working week from 44 to 36 hours
Reducing the working week would have enormous positive effect on how the future generations are razed as parents and grandparents would have loads more time to spend educating attending their kids. Lowering the voting age is another thing I find enormously important as it will create an interest for once society and a sence of power to change once future among the younger.

Combining those two changes with the proposed structural change of delegating the power down from the top of the pyramid down to grass roots communal councils and then not only has their democracy been improoved, or democratisized perhaps one could call it, but suddenly everybody has the time to spend on participating on their community. That would equal a lot out between those who can afford to pay for household help and those who don't.
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
Reducing the working week would have enormous positive effect on how the future generations are razed as parents and grandparents would have loads more time to spend educating attending their kids. Lowering the voting age is another thing I find enormously important as it will create an interest for once society and a sence of power to change once future among the younger.

Combining those two changes with the proposed structural change of delegating the power down from the top of the pyramid down to grass roots communal councils and then not only has their democracy been improoved, or democratisized perhaps one could call it, but suddenly everybody has the time to spend on participating on their community. That would equal a lot out between those who can afford to pay for household help and those who don't.
Must be nice to be sitting on a massive pile of one of the most valuable natural resources on earth. Chavez is a populist who has, as Stiglitz mentioned and Rockwool pointed out a few weeks ago, redistributed such profits to a greater degree than other regimes. But, unfortunately, it is unclear if he has done much more than this. The Venezuelan economy is based on oil- if prices drop, so will their economy (not helped by high inflation). Which wouldn't necessarily be a huge problem if something else could take up the slack. But, Chavez has continued to rely on oil completely, discouraging foreign investment by his policies. Would you want to invest in a country that might decide to, say, nationalize your investment? I wouldn't think so.

Chavez get support because he gives people what they want- cheap gas, government handouts and enemies to fight against. And fight they do, seeing as Venezuela has an incredibly high crime rate- an astronomical amount of murders, kidnappings and robberies. Chavez does little about this.

Of course, he is an elected official and seems to have a wide base. But, many oppose him still. His powers may not be far and away greater than other leaders in other countries, but his ability to reduce transparency is generally much greater. The amount of money he has control over with little or no accountability or transparency is staggering and worrisome.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
Chavez get support because he gives people what they want- cheap gas, government handouts and enemies to fight against. And fight they do, seeing as Venezuela has an incredibly high crime rate- an astronomical amount of murders, kidnappings and robberies. Chavez does little about this.
He also doesn't do anything about crime because it would make him unpopular with his major constituency. He's also motivated to keep his constituency tied to handouts from the government, so that they don't stand a chance of improving their own situation and are dependent on his magnamity with oil money to have any semblance of a decent life. That's Chavez's "socialism."
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
He also doesn't do anything about crime because it would make him unpopular with his major constituency. He's also motivated to keep his constituency tied to handouts from the government, so that they don't stand a chance of improving their own situation and are dependent on his magnamity with oil money to have any semblance of a decent life. That's Chavez's "socialism."
That was kind of my implication. He won't strike the hand that feeds him. I am usually slow to attribute such ulterior motives to people, but I think there is at least some element of this in Chavez' actions.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Would that be this Joseph Stiglitz (is there more than one)?

Caracas - Nobel Prize winning economist and former vice-president of the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, praised Venezuela's economic growth and "positive policies in health and education" during a visit to Caracas on Wednesday.
"Venezuela's economic growth has been very impressive in the last few years," Stiglitz said during his speech at a forum on Strategies for Emerging Markets sponsored by the Bank of Venezuela.

Venezuela, the fourth largest exporter of crude oil to the United States, has experienced the highest economic growth rate in Latin America in recent years, with fifteen successive quarters of expansion and looks set to close the year with 8-9% growth. Despite the high rate of growth, high public spending and increased consumer demand have contributed to inflationary pressures, pushing inflation up to 15.3%, also the highest in Latin America. However, Stiglitz, who won the Nobel Prize for economics in 2001, argued that relatively high inflation isn't necessarily harmful to the economy.

He added that while Venezuela's economic growth has largely been driven by high oil prices, unlike other oil producing countries, Venezuela has taken advantage of the boom in world oil prices to implement policies that benefit its citizens and promote economic development.

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez appears to have had success in bringing health and education to the people in the poor neighborhoods of Caracas, to those who previously saw few benefits of the countries oil wealth," he said.

In his latest book "Making Globalization Work," Stiglitz argues that left governments such as in Venezuela, "have frequently been castigated and called 'populist' because they promote the distribution of benefits of education and health to the poor."

"It is not only important to have sustainable growth," Stiglitz continued during his speech, "but to ensure the best distribution of economic growth, for the benefit of all citizens."

Although Stiglitz praised Venezuela's "positive policies" in areas of health and education and policies to promote economic diversification, he assured that Venezuela still faces the challenge of overcoming structural problems associated with an economy overwhelmingly geared towards oil production.

In terms of economic development Stiglitz argued it was not good for the Central Bank to have "excessive" autonomy. Chavez's proposed constitutional reforms, if approved in December, will remove the autonomy of the country's Central Bank.

However, Stiglitz claimed, developing nations must strike a balance between public and private control of the market.

"The key to success is to find the correct equilibrium between the private sector and the government, which is different for each nation," he said.

Stiglitz also welcomed Venezuela's initiative to create the Bank of the South; due to be founded in Caracas on November 3, saying it would benefit the countries of South America and boost development.

"One of the advantages of having a Bank of the South is that it would reflect the perspectives of those in the South," said Stiglitz, whereas, he argued, the World Bank and International Monetary Fund often impose conditions that "hinder the development effectiveness."

Stiglitz also criticized the "Washington Consensus" of implementing neo-liberal policies in Latin America, in particular the US free trade agreements with Colombia and other countries, saying they failed to bring benefits to the peoples of those countries.

The Washington Consensus "is undermining the Andean cooperation, and it is part of the American strategy of divide and conquer, a strategy trying to get as much of the benefits for American companies," and little for developing countries, he said.

Stiglitz also met with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in Miraflores, where they exchanged points of view on the global economic situation, economic indicators and the behavior of world markets.


*Stiglitz quotes translated from Spanish
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
So he brings education & health to his people from oil revenues and still he's the anti-christ...?

Damn him for taking advantage of high oil prices, he is almost as bad as those dastardly Norwegians.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
He also doesn't do anything about crime because it would make him unpopular with his major constituency. He's also motivated to keep his constituency tied to handouts from the government, so that they don't stand a chance of improving their own situation and are dependent on his magnamity with oil money to have any semblance of a decent life. That's Chavez's "socialism."
You mean handouts like education, reducing poverty and increasing life expectancy. Damn those lazy peasants and their me, me, me mentality.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456996/html/nn4page1.stm
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
That was kind of my implication. He won't strike the hand that feeds him. I am usually slow to attribute such ulterior motives to people, but I think there is at least some element of this in Chavez' actions.
I have to admit, in the interest of disclosure, that my statements were largely based on an NPR article I heard yesterday (hardly Fox News), which reinforced on my own conclusions. Can't find a link yet, though.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
I have to admit, in the interest of disclosure, that my statements were largely based on an NPR article I heard yesterday (hardly Fox News), which reinforced on my own conclusions. Can't find a link yet, though.
I think I listened to the same one, and also can't find it. Two male interviewees, one American and one Latin? Yup, not fans of Chavez.

The way I see it, is he's not a dictator yet and he's subject to so much scrutiny, no one will miss it when he becomes one. His policies aren't the best for long-term economic growth and stability, but at least the money IS going back to the people and is being put towards something that is at minimum defensible. Considering what interventionism has done to South America, it's not surprising that he isn't too keen on foreign investment (and thus influence) in any form. Considering they are the people that brought him to power, it's not surprising that he's pandering to populism.

At the same time, anyone that doesn't recognizing that he's creating the tools of a dictatorship is kidding themselves. Even if he never uses them, who knows what his successor will do after he has suppressed the media and academia, killed term limits, and taken control of the central bank? If not an outright dictatorship, it would facilitate the creation of another Soviet Russia.

Lower oil prices will be the true test of his policies and his legitimacy, so I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude. Of course, I may have to wait awhile.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
His policies aren't the best for long-term economic growth and stability, but at least the money IS going back to the people and is being put towards something that is at minimum defensible. Considering what interventionism has done to South America, it's not surprising that he isn't too keen on foreign investment (and thus influence) in any form.
What policies would you recommend?
 

JRogers

talks too much
Mar 19, 2002
3,785
1
Claremont, CA
So he brings education & health to his people from oil revenues and still he's the anti-christ...?

Damn him for taking advantage of high oil prices, he is almost as bad as those dastardly Norwegians.
I'm not saying its bad in itself. I'm saying he's a populist that will pursue short term popularity over long term sustainability. Yes, redistribute oil money, but don't rely completely on oil completely. In short, I think he's taking the easy way by just giving people what they want right now at the expense of what they might need in a few years.

Also, his populist reforms are offset by his style of leadership and undemocratic changes. I find his rhetoric to be more pandering than even his populist actions. As for policies- why the elimination of term limits? Why the centralization of economic authority? Why is there so little transparency in spending? Lots of money is pumped into social programs, but the mechanisms of decisions and accounting are not transparent.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
In short: I think he's overly subsidizing fuel, and should instead be pumping that money into further infrastructure investments.

Now at length:True, cheap oil spurs the economy but at their prices he's throwing away money that might not always be coming in. If they don't build a non-oil reliant economy, they will be crushed by the IMF (just like in the 90s) when those prices drop and Chavez needs cash to support his programs.

Wikipedia says it better than I do:
wonkypedia said:
The president of Datos said that, although his surveys showed rising incomes because of subsidies and grants, the number of people in the worst living conditions has grown. "The poor of Venezuela are living much better lately and have increased their purchasing power… [but] without being able to improve their housing, education level, and social mobility," he said.
I'd argue with the quote a bit in that health and primary education are fundamental to Chavez's policies as I understand them, and both critical to organic growth. Additionally, he claims to be keeping a healthy reserve of cash from the oil income to buffer a price drop. However, I just don't see him making the large infrastructure investments, particularly in transportation, energy, and housing, that he needs to and that's exactly what Venezuela needs to do themselves since those are the investments that normally put developing countries into crippling debt.