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Totally clutch, or why I give a **** about 10 speed now

SuboptimusPrime

Turbo Monkey
Aug 18, 2005
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NorCack
Interesting points on the feature differences between Shimano and SRAM--and my experience mirrors yours in terms of SRAMs tolerating more out-of-whackness and still shifting well. Being that it is a review of derailleurs, could you comment on any differences in the shifting quality and/or reliability of the two derailleurs? Based on the bikes you used for the test, I'm guessing they were run with some type of chain guide, but it would be worth noting whether there was any advantage in terms of chain retention. Thanks for contributing actual, you know, content to RM :thumb:
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Another good article. Dude, you're on a roll.

I agree with your conclusion about the new stuff: Clutch derailleurs are awesome and 10 spd chains don't handle shifting under load as well as chains with wider spacing.

But my experience with 9spd was different. I tried hard to like SRAM but the rear derailleurs were just not nearly as durable for me as Shimano. It seemed that even a glancing hit would crush the parallelogram enough to render a SRAM der useless. Even before the low profile shadow stuff I got far more durability from Shimano.

Factor in the brakes and cranks and Shimano is the clear winner for me. But I would like to thank SRAM for providing some serious competition and forcing Shimano to step up their game in recent years.
 

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
Awesome, my new bike has a x9 type two, can't wait to give it a try. Are their any differences with cage lengths and the effect on the clutch/friction/shifting? Just wondering if guys running 1x10 on trail bikes are noticing any difference between cage lengths.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I tried hard to like SRAM but the rear derailleurs were just not nearly as durable for me as Shimano.
Which ones did you have? They did have some crappy ones with thin bars forming the derailleur parallelogram but it's been a few years now. X.0s from the beginning have been insanely durable......I think I just retired my last one from 2003. As the years went on some of that trickledown started, the x.9 stuff got pretty damn awesome. My bigggest problem with them was that the main pivot that houses the hanger bolt would get a lot of play in it (talking years here though) but they still always shifted flawlessly.....even when bent.

SubPrime: It's kind of funny the sort of convergence in lever throw that both companies have achieved. It was always pretty obvious there was a difference when sram advertised 1:1 actuation and Shimano 1:2. They're both like 1:1.5 now (seriously). I've heard of some folks even being able to mix shifters and derailleurs between the brands and it working for the most part. I haven't tried it though.

I've have broken or bent either one of them yet so I'm kind of useless for super long term durability info. The sram stuff hasn't even been out that long. But yeah, every bike either of these were on were with some sort ofchainguide.....at the minimum a blackspire stinger on my trailbike. Both make a huge difference comparable to riding without a chainguide and then sticking one on. It's nuts.

Matt: both companies do a short medium and long cage so you've got options whichever way you go. Mine were both medium cages. That's a good point about the length of the cage and leverage. Kind of another point for shimano since you can adjust it IMO.
 
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Nick

My name is Nick
Sep 21, 2001
23,926
14,438
where the trails are
I'm slowly piecing together a 10-sp group, just need the chain and shifters to be ready.
Actually was considering the chain strength issue and contemplating going low end chain, thinking it will be stronger than an XTR level with hollow pins and speed holes.

edit: I like how the new Shimano i-spec shifters integrate with the new Shimano brake lever mounting. Less clutter.
 
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the law

Monkey
Jun 25, 2002
267
0
where its at
One thing I noticed is that my 10-speed Shimano stuff required fewer adjustments than my older 9-speed SRAM shifting. Is that also the case for 10-speed to 10-speed?
 

ZoRo

Turbo Monkey
Sep 28, 2004
1,224
11
MTL
A quasi-dissertation about the pros and cons of bending a chain.

Good stuff as usual. Won't upgrade till the 9 speed stuff falls apart, but I can see the point
 
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'size

Turbo Monkey
May 30, 2007
2,000
338
AZ
...But yeah, every bike either of these were on were with some sort ofchainguide.....at the minimum a blackspire stinger on my trailbike. Both make a huge difference comparable to riding without a chainguide and then sticking one on. It's nuts.
i was running an xcx on my 1x10 5" trail bike but decided to take it off and see if the x9 clutch could handle it. so far i haven't lost a chain and the bike is even quieter. win.
 

csermonet

Monkey
Mar 5, 2010
942
127
Would love the benefits of the clutch system, but a little nervous about the durability of the 10sp chain. Good write up!
 

slyfink

Turbo Monkey
Sep 16, 2008
9,288
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Ottawa, Canada
i was running an xcx on my 1x10 5" trail bike but decided to take it off and see if the x9 clutch could handle it. so far i haven't lost a chain and the bike is even quieter. win.
i tried that. didn't work. I would lose a chain several times a ride. Maybe it depends on terrain and riding style? I'm a brute and I ride in rocky terrain. Up and down...
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
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Man, I desperately want one of these for nine speed. I've wondered if there's any way to convert the shifter ratio to make it work. The concept of switching to a less durable chain to get an extra gear I don't feel like I need just doesn't work for me.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
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Man, I desperately want one of these for nine speed. I've wondered if there's any way to convert the shifter ratio to make it work. The concept of switching to a less durable chain to get an extra gear I don't feel like I need just doesn't work for me.
Shimz?
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
Brazar - "or pull it back into your chainguide"
-------------------------------------------

One of the advantages to 10speed clutch is you can run a nearly weightless 1x chain retention device.....that's what i've seen on limited scale here.

For me, not going off 9 speed (shimano) anytime soon, works well enough...
 
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motomike

Turbo Monkey
Jan 19, 2005
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North Carolina
One of the advantages to 10speed clutch is you can run a nearly weightless 1x chain retention device..
Exactly. Also worth mentioning is that being able to run one of those chain guides (like an E.13 XCX) you get rid of a lot of drag that you would normally have from the bottom roller of a regular chainguide setup.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
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Which ones did you have? They did have some crappy ones with thin bars forming the derailleur parallelogram but it's been a few years now.
XO and X9. Might have been bad luck, but the last straw was when a brand new XO got squashed on a relatively light hit. I think I got three rides out of it and those things are not cheap. User error played a factor for sure but I have always had much better luck on Shimano.

As for durability questions, I've been riding the same XTR shadow plus for more than a year and half (two full riding seasons and then some) on my nomad in all kinds of terrain and conditions. In that time I've broken my hanger a few times and bent it more than that, but the derailleur is still straight and going strong (as is the rest of the group). I've been super stoked on the new XTR stuff for sure.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
XTR stuff always seemed burly for sure. But not being able to say the same thing about X.0 is like a different language to me.

You remember when you and I used to run into each other at Northstar all the time? I JUST got rid of the derailleur that was on my dh bike then. The ti spring broke. I should take some pics of the thing, it's hilarious what it looks like. I wonder if there was an intermediate year or two in there when they started putting a little more plastic on them that cut down the functionality. But I can honestly say, I've never retired an X.0 derailleur because it was bent to the point of not shifting evenly........and I've had a few of them.

Anyway.......screw all of it. Clutches are like 650b. You will all submit and like it. :D
 
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boylagz

Monkey
Jul 12, 2011
558
61
SF bay area
Would love to get my hands on them new Saints :drool: Any of you know if the spacer thingy comes with the derailleur for different sized cassettes?!
 

captainspauldin

intrigued by a pole
May 14, 2007
1,263
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Jersey Shore
Exactly. Also worth mentioning is that being able to run one of those chain guides (like an E.13 XCX) you get rid of a lot of drag that you would normally have from the bottom roller of a regular chainguide setup.
Yeap, my favorite part about running this setup, that and how quiet it is.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
But I can honestly say, I've never retired an X.0 derailleur because it was bent to the point of not shifting evenly........and I've had a few of them.
Pretty amazing run for a derailleur dude, especially in the stuff you ride. I don't remember bending cages, my issue was crushing the parallelograms to the point where they would get hung up on the knuckle and be blocked mechanically from moving to my 2 or 3 smallest cogs. Didn't take much. Maybe the newer ones are better, don't know. I've always been a Shimano guy anyway.
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
I always thought the value in the Shimano 9 speed deraillers was in the super low-end (Deore) or the high end (XTR). The stuff in the middle didn't have as much "value to dollar" for a variety of different reasons.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
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San Francisco
Kidwoo, did you never have problems with the SRAM stuff taking one hit and then being so bent it couldn't shift the entire range? That always seemed to happen with mine and why i stopped running them. One hit, it would be bent and shift fine through 6-7 out of 9 gears, but couldn't get into the gear on the end. Was there some stupid simple fix like just forcing it and bending it back that I was too stupid/lazy to do?

Many people around here seem to have the same problem.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
I don't remember bending cages, my issue was crushing the parallelograms to the point where they would get hung up on the knuckle and be blocked mechanically from moving to my 2 or 3 smallest cogs. Didn't take much. Maybe the newer ones are better, don't know. I've always been a Shimano guy anyway.
I don't think I've ever crushed a cage.......they usually just break off and then you replace it. The bent parallelogram is exactly what gets bent though. I know exactly what you're talking about rubbing on the knuckle though. You never tried to bend them back? I think that's where you might have given up too soon. I've resurrected precisely every single one of mine at least once that way.

But that's why I used them for so long....I could just keep doing that and they'd work. :rofl:


edit:
gemini: x.9.....yes Although some of the ones that started to look like early X.0s I could bend back. X.0s......I could always bend those back. I wasn't kidding when I said that I never quit using them because of they're shifting performance. Something else would happen like either the ti spring would break, or the bolt that goes into the frame would seize or lock up from being in the same place for so many years (or maybe that was bent too and binding).

Is this going to be like my rim picture where nobody believes me until I put up a pic? :D


But I guess that's another benefit of the 10sp clutch stuff. They're totally new designs so most of us have no idea how either will fail or annoy.
 
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Speedgoat9

Monkey
Aug 27, 2009
147
0
State College, PA
Man, I desperately want one of these for nine speed. I've wondered if there's any way to convert the shifter ratio to make it work. The concept of switching to a less durable chain to get an extra gear I don't feel like I need just doesn't work for me.
It's definitely possible. There is a crazy Russian around here that took a clutch equipped SLX mech and converted it to seven speed. We ask told him to not waste his time, but low and behold, in mother Russia apparently the rear mech does NOT shift you.....
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Oh I believe you, just saying my experience was different. And it sounds like Gemini and I are talking about the same thing.

And yeah except for the last one, which was the last straw and went straight in the garbage, I tried bending them back and they were never the same again. Even if I could get it to clear the knuckle the shifting would be inconsistent across the range of gears. Glad you had better luck. I'll need a strong reason to buy SRAM again any time soon.
 

big-ted

Danced with A, attacked by C, fired by D.
Sep 27, 2005
1,400
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Vancouver, BC
From what I've seen, the new clutch systems are awesome, but that has nothing to do with ten speed. The manufacturers are basically saying, "Hey, we came with this cool new idea for rear derailers. Oh, but we're only going to fit it to our new stuff, which just so happens to require a new shifter, cassette, chain, etc. It's not that we couldn't fit this new clutch to a 9-speed derailer if we wanted, we just don't want to."
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
From what I've seen, the new clutch systems are awesome, but that has nothing to do with ten speed. The manufacturers are basically saying, "Hey, we came with this cool new idea for rear derailers. Oh, but we're only going to fit it to our new stuff, which just so happens to require a new shifter, cassette, chain, etc. It's not that we couldn't fit this new clutch to a 9-speed derailer if we wanted, we just don't want to."
Sounds familiar eh? I at least had the satisfaction of mixing bits......cranks/cassette: shimano, derailleur/shifter/chain: SRAM. Now I'll be buying almost all shimano so those damn fishing reel people really got me.


Oh I believe you, just saying my experience was different. And it sounds like Gemini and I are talking about the same thing.

And yeah except for the last one, which was the last straw and went straight in the garbage, I tried bending them back and they were never the same again. Even if I could get it to clear the knuckle the shifting would be inconsistent across the range of gears. Glad you had better luck. I'll need a strong reason to buy SRAM again any time soon.
Yeah it just seemed like it was always easier for me to knock xt and xtr stuff out of whack.......plus they just rattled so much more.

Write it off to differences in smash steeze.
 
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Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
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wait, so forced obsolescence in your drivetrain = good, forced obsolescence in your wheels = bad.

K.

But seriously I need to brush up on my e-engineering to figure out how to get 9 gears out of one.
 

steelforeel

Chimp
Dec 2, 2009
23
1
Someone in MTBR was running Zee 10s clutch der with Sram 9s shifter and 9s cassette. Apparently the ratio is same or close enough...
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
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NORCAL is the hizzle
Makes you wonder if they would sell MORE clutch derailleurs in the short term if they were compatible with 8 or 9spd. Plenty of folks will upgrade a derailleur (out of necessity or desire), but fewer will replace an entire drivetrain. But I guess it doesn't matter since they will soon stop producing the old stuff altogether, forcing the new drivetrain purchase at some point anyway.

As for the parallel with 650B, I have a much easier time accusing the only two major drivetrain players of a conspiracy toward planned obsolescence than dozens of independent bike companies.
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,208
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Durham, NC
Makes you wonder if they would sell MORE clutch derailleurs in the short term if they were compatible with 8 or 9spd.
Good point and seems accurate to me. Shimano and SRAM were already into the 10-speed generation when the clutch derailleurs came out.

An yeah, the clutch derailleurs rock. I haven't tried a SRAM version yet, but the XTR I've been running for over a year now has been awesome.
 
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Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,698
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I used to only run Shimano cranks. Then, I switched back over to their pedals. Then, I switched to their new trail brakes. And now after my order today, I am switching over everything on the drivetrain. I have been wanting a clutch der. since they came out, but said I was gonna wear out my 9 speed drivetrain first. So, now my cassette and chain and chainring are toast. My shifter is a 6 year old XO that needs replacing, and my x9 der. is a bent and a couple of years old. Order placed for all XT. Giddy up.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
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Are people running shimano chains and cassettes, or sticking with sram? I've always liked SRAM chains, mostly for their quicklink, but have had good luck with their higher end cassettes as well. Just wondering whether things are flipped in 10spd land.