Touchy Subject - Birth Control, Abortion, and Prescriptions
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It's more the percieved cost of adoption than an actual shortage of babies. Unless the prospective parent is looking for a newborn, same race, non-special needs child, then it can be harder.
While I suspect you're right, I also know several people that have adopted from overseas, specifically Chinese baby girls. Now, isn't that far more expensive?
PS: Don't think me unsympathetic to people's various viewpoints and causes as my ex-wife and I had a miscarriage at 6 weeks after having tried for a couple of years. It wasn't a normal miscarriage tho, the baby didn't abort naturally so she had to go in for a D&C -- I'm sure those of you who know what I'm talking about have already cringed, but if you don't know, that's dialate and cleanse. I sat with my then wife holding her hand while the doctor did the procedure. The doctor put a sheet up so we couldn't see what he was doing, standard procedure I suspect. I made the mistake of seeing the doctor put my 6 week old baby in a container as he walked across the room.
We talked about adopting, but that was the beginning of the end of our marriage... a longer story that I may bore you with another time.
I figure I'll stick my head in this discussion. I agree with ll's point of view, even the morning after pill is terminating a human life.
How sad is it that this is a morally viable option for people who are not "ready" to have children. How about adoption, when my wife and I were having "trouble" getting pregnant (not now she is 13 weeks along) we would have adopted a baby in a heartbeat.
Yes.Originally posted by LordOpie
While I suspect you're right, I also know several people that have adopted from overseas, specifically Chinese baby girls. Now, isn't that far more expensive?
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My prof. from last spring adopted a child and the cost was based on her and her husbands income. They made about 80K a year and by the time they deducted their costs they paid about a thousand dollars. There are charitys who will pay a lot of the costs incured also.
There is a great book called Pricing The Priceless child that breaks down the value American society places on children and it has much better stats than I can just rattle off from memory.
Do you or LL or anyone have some data to back that up? If that is the case then all oral contraceptives terminate human life.
Interesting....
Time to Google this....
When my wife and I got pregnant earlier this year we had the same thing happen to us. She was 10 weeks along and went in for our first sonogram and it was SO cool to see the baby. You could see arms hands and feet, it looked like a little person..........but it was not to be. The baby's heart had stopped 2 weeks earlier. I also took my wife to the hospital for a D & C.
I'll add a little twist to this story. Rewind 16 years ago, my wife (who at the time was not my wife, we hadn't even met yet), was raped and got pregnant. Her family would have freaked knowing she was pregnant, even if it was a rape. She felt she had no option but to get an abortion. She traveled 3 hours to a big city abortion clinic, and had the abortion. I won't even share with you the stories of the women that were in there for their 3rd or 4th time. What was even worse was the lady that worked at the clinic told my wife as she was leaving, "don't worry honey, it gets easier the second time. You'll be in here again, I garuntee it." Now fast forward 16 years: My wife and I "tried" to get pregnant for 8 months (which doesn't seem long, but it did to us) and when we finally did we had a miscarriage (see above).
My point is, the one thing that stuck with my wife is that "did my abortion cause or was in anyway related to the misscarriage". The Dr's said "no" but there was still this sinking feeling the two were related. The only regret my wife has is that she would have had the baby when she was 18 and gave ut up for adoption, but in her situation no one presented that as an option. We focus so much on the physical aspects of getting an abortion, but there is a HUGE emotional impact that I think people do not take into consideration.
Hmm...
I'm looking for data, you know, medical trials, FDA reports, even information from pro-life groups...
If simple hormonal birth control pills are not in fact contraceptives and are in fact abortifacients there is some validity to the arguement Andy and llkoolkeg made.
**Post Google thoughts**
The National Institutes of Health (NIH) says an IUD isn't an abortifacient.
The Iowa Right To Life Committee says they are. they also list Depo Provara as an abortifacient.
This essay from some Harvard researcher is not advocating Depo Provera but not classing it with abortifacients.
I have been unable to find anything saying the morning after pill or something like ortho-tricycline are abortifacients but it may be out there.
From my little bit of looking it does seem like some birthcontrol devices which are supposed to halt ovulation (like Depo) may fail and then because of a secondary effect of the drug cause an aborted pregnancy.
All in all this topic really requires a lot of research and makes me glad I had a vasectomy.
Brilliantly stated. $hit, I'm crying now.
Give your wife a hug from another, nearly aborted kid. Me.
That is so friggin', what?, evil
The more abortions a woman has, the increased likelihood of problems later. One abortion at 18 yo tho is probably insignificant. I'm sorry for your wife and you went thru, but I hope she still does not think she was at fault for the miscarriage... tho everywoman blames themselves
And yes, the emotional impact is very unestimated.
To all: I hear what pro-lifers say, but there are lots of people who are pro-choice in general, but pro-life personally. I think the options should be there, but I would be :angry: and
if I got a woman pregnant and she aborted.
*Sees Ohio running*
*thinks*
*chases after him like he stole my beer*
Pro-life is the same play on words. Most pro-life people are not "pro-life", they are anti-abortion. 2 different things.
One question about your feelings about a fertilized egg. Why do you feel a fertilized egg is a human being? Gut instinct, or is there another reason?
Anti-abortion = pro life
Pro-abortion = pro death
Pro choice =
I have no clue. Its doublespeak, eh?Ok, about the fertilized egg...i think its pretty much common sense. The male gene info enters the female egg, and voila...a baby begins to grow. I think i got that in 5th grade.
Common sense is hardly common. Most fertilized eggs don't result in a human being. A fertilized egg has no characteristics of a human being, and most importantly, in my opinion, there is no consciousness in a fertilized egg. Human beings are near (if they haven't already been) to being cloned. Does every single clonable cell that we kill amount to murder?Originally posted by BurlySurly
Anti-abortion = pro life
Pro-abortion = pro death
Pro choice =
Ok, about the fertilized egg...i think its pretty much common sense. The male gene info enters the female egg, and voila...a baby begins to grow. I think i got that in 5th grade.
Personally, I think consciousness is where I would set the bar. Where does it start? It depends what you mean by consciousness...but if you take the The brain is obviously the place to start looking, and the study of consciousness is still stuck between the early discoveries of science and the hypotheses of philosphy. I'm not an expert, and finding links is difficult on google (bad signal to noise ratio) but it appears that most of the brain development that makes us human happens in the last trimester.
Pro-life is just as much doublespeak as pro-choice. Many pro-life people are for the death penalty, they don't mind killing animals for food, and they don't oppose all war.
Anti-abortion=anti-abortion
Pro-abortion=pro-abortion
Pro-life and pro-choice are essentially meaningless terms, as far as I am concerned.
Haha, reminds me of the South Park where Stan's grandpa wants Stan to kill him. Stan looks for advice from his teacher (I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole!), Chef (I'm not touching that with a twenty foot pole!), and he finally calls into Jesus and friends to get the verdict from the man himself.
His answer? "I'm not touching that with a thirty foot pole!"
Point taken on that.
I was simply pointing out that one can take the meaning of abortion, (which in this context to me means snuffing a fetus) and place an "anti" or a "pro" in front of it...nowhere can you construe it to mean anything about a "choice" . But i get what you mean.
Still though, on the fertilized egg deal, consciousness may be where you set the bar, but if i went around killing people while they were "unconscious" id still get charged with murder. Of course this is not what you mean, but its a hard thing to define as you said. Though all fertilized eggs do not end up as humans, altering that potential in an unnatural way IMO, is playing god. I am not anti-abortion, as i said, but it is still killing in the simplest form.
you can sure try
We don't consider taking someone off of life support murder. Hell, we don't even consider not treating something to be murder. Temporary unconsciousness and utter lack of consiousness are two very different things.
The choice thing comes from the woman's point of view. The fetus has no choice.
Ain't that the truth
I took it once and let me tell you, from my experience, it almost wasn't worth it. Good god, I had the worst side effects ever. It's really just a VERY strong birth control pill, and thoses thing at the regular doseage are bad enough. Yuk...I will never use one of those pills again
Ha so true!
Don't get me wrong, it's great that so many guys have strong options on the subject, but it seems so convienent. When I was much younger, and in my wilder
days.....I don't know how many times in the heat of the moments I was the one asking about birth control, and 80% of the time I was the one that had to supply it.
