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Trees - well I guess it depends on perspective

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
On the one hand - our national forests' protection has gone way down hill...and we can expect to see things like logging roads, logging, ski resorts and so on slowly working their way into lands that previously were protected.

On the other hand - the opening of access to the forests might mean that local land managers might be more open to recreational use of them (ie trails).

What do you guys think?

Administration Overhauls Rules for U.S. Forests
By FELICITY BARRINGER

Published: December 23, 2004, New York Times

WASHINGTON, Dec. 22 - The Bush administration issued broad new rules Wednesday overhauling the guidelines for managing the nation's 155 national forests and making it easier for regional forest managers to decide whether to allow logging, drilling or off-road vehicles.

The long-awaited rules relax longstanding provisions on environmental reviews and the protection of wildlife on 191 million acres of national forest and grasslands. They also cut back on requirements for public participation in forest planning decisions.

Forest Service officials said the rules were intended to give local foresters more flexibility to respond to scientific advances and threats like intensifying wildfires and invasive species. They say the regulations will also speed up decisions, ending what some public and private foresters see as a legal and regulatory gridlock that has delayed forest plans for years because of litigation and requirements for time-consuming studies.

"You're trying to manage towards how we want the forest to look and be in the future," said Rick D. Cables, the Forest Service's regional forester for the Rocky Mountain region.

The rules give the nation's regional forest managers and the Forest Service increased autonomy to decide whether to allow logging roads or cellphone towers, mining activity or new ski areas.

Environmental groups said the new rules pared down protection for native animals and plants to the point of irrelevance. These protections were a hallmark of the 1976 National Forest Management Act.

"The new planning regulations offer little in the way of planning and nothing in the way of regulation," the conservation group Trout Unlimited said in a statement.

Martin Hayden, a lawyer with Earthjustice, a law firm affiliated with the Sierra Club, accused the administration of watering down protections "that are about fish and wildlife, that are about public participation, or about forcing the agency to do anything other than what the agency wants to do."

"What you are left with is things that are geared toward getting the sticks out," Ms. Hayden said.

The original 1976 law on forest management was intended to ensure that regional managers showed environmental sensitivity in decisions on how the national forests would be used. During the 1990's, the Clinton administration sought major revisions in the rules governing how the act was carried out. But the Clinton-era regulation was not completed in time to take effect before President Bush assumed office.

The new rules incorporate an approach that has gained favor in private industries from electronics to medical device manufacturing. The practice, used by companies like Apple Computer, allows businesses to set their own environmental goals and practices and then subjects them to an outside audit that judges their success.

These procedures are called environmental management systems. When the Forest Service started investigating these systems, said Fred Norbury, a deputy associate chief at the Forest Service, "what we discovered to our surprise is that the U.S. is a little behind the rest of the world and we in government are a little behind the curve."

In the case of the Forest Service, the supervisors of the individual forests and grasslands will shape forest management plans, and the effects of those will be subject to independent audits.

The auditors the Forest Service chooses could range from other Forest Service employees to outsiders, said Sally Collins, an associate chief at the Forest Service. She said the auditors could come from an environmental group or an industry group like timber "or a ski area, local citizens or a private contractor."

Forest supervisors are appointed by the Forest Service to manage national forests and report to regional managers. Some are more supportive of pro-timber policies, while others are more steeped in the environmental ethos.

One of the ways the new rules give forest supervisors more power is that they are allowed to approve plans more quickly for any particular forest use - ranging from recreation to logging to grazing - and to adjust plans with less oversight.

For instance, an existing requirement to keep all fish and wildlife species from becoming threatened or endangered is jettisoned. In its place is a requirement that managers consider the best available science to protect all natural resources when they are making decisions.

Michael D. Ferrucci, a partner in the Connecticut consulting firm Interforest and a former forest manager who now performs audits for private industry and state governments, said Wednesday: "I personally think the flexibility implied in this approach is terrific. It will help to unlock the power and creativity of a lot of good people."

He added: "Most environmentalists and most scientists who follow forestry understand that more flexibility is needed. But there is a risk of making some of the mistakes we made 20 and 25 years ago. The mistake we made was to be a little too narrowly focused on the timber side." In the 1980's, extensive logging took place in places like the Tongass National Forest in Alaska and Oregon's old growth forests.

But Chris Wood, the vice president for conservation at Trout Unlimited, warned that the new approach would require a heavy financial commitment to ensure enough people could monitor the impact of regulations and alert managers to problems.

Amy Mall, a forestry specialist at the Natural Resources Defense Council, an environmental group, said in a statement: "The rule is illegal. It rips the guts out of National Forest management plans. It doesn't ensure that the Forest Service provides the necessary resources to implement plans."

The final rule requires forest managers to comply with the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act, the cornerstone of the current environmental regulations on government and industry.

But an accompanying proposal - which is open to public comment for 60 days - gives managers new discretion on what kind of environmental review constitutes compliance.

Mr. Norbury of the Forest Service said that under this proposal, the forest supervisor would be making the call as to whether a particular plan must undergo a full environmental impact statement, a more modest review or no formal review.

In Congress, where partisan divisions over environmental protections have grown more acute in recent years, the new rules were greeted with enthusiasm by Republican leaders and anger by Democrats.

Representative Richard W. Pombo, the chairman of the Republican-controlled House Resources Committee, hailed the change, saying that currently "the process is so burdensome and time consuming that the plans are obsolete before they are finished."

But Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Agriculture Committee, said, "The Bush administration's new plan threatens to derail decades of progress in that direction by backing away from longstanding, bipartisan commitments to nontimber resources like wildlife, public involvement and scientific review."
 

biggins

Rump Junkie
May 18, 2003
7,173
9
in all honesty i dont really care what Bush does any more. The guy is gonna do whatever he wants anyway. Also just because they open it to logging and drilling does not mean they are gonna open it to mountain bikes. Bikes are not a large commercial industry thats going to bring money into both government and private sectors.
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
True enough - but at least over here, a lot of the time where they log they sometimes have more tolerance for bikers so long as the bikers stay outta the way ;)
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
I think Bush is making a huge mistake. The national forests are one of our countries greatest national treasures, more than any amount of gold in Fort Knox. The forests need to be protected at all costs.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
TheMontashu said:
I think Bush is making a huge mistake. The national forests are one of our countries greatest national treasures, more than any amount of gold in Fort Knox. The forests need to be protected at all costs.
Okay, who hacked Montashu's account?
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
ohio said:
Okay, who hacked Montashu's account?
Haha :D

I didn't read the article....seriously Jr_B why the freaking long indepth articles.....:) ...anymore than 3 paragraphs and I glaze over on the computer screen. :think: :rolleyes:

Why is it that MTB, motorcycles, etc can't be used on protected forrests? a trail is a trail and in the larger picture don't exactly kill the forrest. I aggree that logging should be curtailed but recreation seems pointless and an easy target for people wanting to feel good at the end of the day thinking they helped make the forrest a better place.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
RhinofromWA said:
Why is it that MTB, motorcycles, etc can't be used on protected forrests? a trail is a trail and in the larger picture don't exactly kill the forrest. I aggree that logging should be curtailed but recreation seems pointless and an easy target for people wanting to feel good at the end of the day thinking they helped make the forrest a better place.
I agree that areas should be opened to recreation, but I have a problem with the motorized kind. All types of recreation have their irresponsible parties, but when you give them a motor, those irresponsible parties can do a lot more damage, a lot faster, and a lot further into the wildnerness. So I think we need to carefully regulate (but not forbid) their access.

Other than that, I'm with you. Industrial use is a far greater threat than recreation, especially because recreation generally helps people build a respect for the value of wild spaces.

Oh, and Bush is a jackass.
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
RhinofromWA said:
Haha :D

I didn't read the article....seriously Jr_B why the freaking long indepth articles.....:) ...anymore than 3 paragraphs and I glaze over on the computer screen. :think: :rolleyes:

Uhm, cuz in-depth articles usually give more information than some short un-informed opinionated blurb.

I prefer to make my own opinions - not swallow those of others.

:)
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Jr_Bullit said:
Uhm, cuz in-depth articles usually give more information than some short un-informed opinionated blurb.

I prefer to make my own opinions - not swallow those of others.

:)
SO why are you posting it here? :D

We live on "short un-informed opinionated blurbs"!

haha

seriously I hate reading a lot on computer screens.....a hard copy is always better for me. My eyes glaze over.....even if I am interested. :(

Oh, BTW. It is very rare if anyone has an original opinion. Not saying that is bad really. Just it is rare opinions are formed without considering others that may be close to youro own. ;)
 

Jr_Bullit

I'm sooo teenie weenie!!!
Sep 8, 2001
2,028
1
North of Oz
RhinofromWA said:
SO why are you posting it here? :D

We live on "short un-informed opinionated blurbs"!

haha

seriously I hate reading a lot on computer screens.....a hard copy is always better for me. My eyes glaze over.....even if I am interested. :(

Oh, BTW. It is very rare if anyone has an original opinion. Not saying that is bad really. Just it is rare opinions are formed without considering others that may be close to youro own. ;)
Well not Everyone on this board lives on short opinionated blurbs. And I'm used to reading long chit online at this point, so I don't really worry too much that others need paper ;) (though I do understand it)

Uhm, and ya, it is rare, but if a person really wants to understand an issue then they read up on anything and everything about it - even if they disagree with its content. That's the first rule for forming any kind of opinion on any issue is to try and understand the other side too. Most of the time I fall somewhere in the middle because I try and understand both sides of an argument...then I get all muddled because I always agree with a little of both and get sick of the extremes.
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
Jr_Bullit said:
Most of the time I fall somewhere in the middle because I try and understand both sides of an argument...then I get all muddled because I always agree with a little of both and get sick of the extremes.
...pish'a flipflopper. ;) j/k Jr_B!

I agree the extreme ends of any argument can get awfully annoying.

Usually a piece to entice us and a link to the article.....or something. Maybe I am just dumb (OK guys that was a slow pitch) :) I just tire of articles easily on the computer screen.....muct be getting old. :D
 

chicodude

The Spooninator
Mar 28, 2004
1,054
2
Paradise
I :heart: montashu, cause now my head doesnt hurt after reading his posts.


Save the forest. trails are nice and all, but not worth cutting down the forest
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
chicodude01 said:
I :heart: montashu, cause now my head doesnt hurt after reading his posts.


Save the forest. trails are nice and all, but not worth cutting down the forest
What amazes me is one does not have to exclude the other. :think:

I mean really.....that attitude is what gets people locked out by greeners. "You can't save the forrest unless you lock everyone out!....except us(greeners), of course."
 

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
RhinofromWA said:
What amazes me is one does not have to exclude the other. :think:

I mean really.....that attitude is what gets people locked out by greeners. "You can't save the forrest unless you lock everyone out!....except us(greeners), of course."
Those types of people piss me off. The organization that saves the most wildlife in this country (maybe on earth) is ducks unlimited and that’s a hunting organization. The hippies need to stop protesting and start taking some goddamn action.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
RhinofromWA said:
I mean really.....that attitude is what gets people locked out by greeners. "You can't save the forrest unless you lock everyone out!....except us(greeners), of course."

Dude, like, Rhinos are totally a non-native species. I am all for keeping them out of our woodland eco-system. :nuts: :sneaky:

I get shafted on these deals on three fronts.

1. I hate horse poop, and as been stated in threads on access issues before horse people have money.

2. I hate 3' wide gravel trails that used to be natural single track. I like to ride my bike on trials not paths.

3. I LOVE :love: :love: :love: going wheeling with my peeps and everyone up to and including most non-DH mountain bikey people hate us stupidsumbitchinredneckyahoocopenhagenspittinginbredsisterlovin 4X4 guys. :nope: Which is a little silly because the moto and 4X4 people are fighting hard to keep access open for all recreational users. :)
 

RhinofromWA

Brevity R Us
Aug 16, 2001
4,622
0
Lynnwood, WA
ummbikes said:
Dude, like, Rhinos are totally a non-native species. I am all for keeping them out of our woodland eco-system. :nuts: :sneaky:

I get shafted on these deals on three fronts.

1. I hate horse poop, and as been stated in threads on access issues before horse people have money.

2. I hate 3' wide gravel trails that used to be natural single track. I like to ride my bike on trials not paths.

3. I LOVE :love: :love: :love: going wheeling with my peeps and everyone up to and including most non-DH mountain bikey people hate us stupidsumbitchinredneckyahoocopenhagenspittinginbredsisterlovin 4X4 guys. :nope: Which is a little silly because the moto and 4X4 people are fighting hard to keep access open for all recreational users. :)
Hey my **** is fertilizing so I actually help the forrest grow. :sneaky: :D It isn't like I am saying my **** don't stink. ;)

"You" 4x4 guys are crazy :) I could never beat the **** out of my car...I know guys the destroy their day to day drivers offroading....:eek: but they can unite and try keep the areas open for everyone.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
26
SF, CA
TheMontashu said:
The organization that saves the most wildlife in this country (maybe on earth) is ducks unlimited
(to steal one from MikeD)
"He'd make outrageous claims, like he invented the question mark."
 

Toshi

butthole powerwashing evangelist
Oct 23, 2001
40,228
9,113
ohio said:
(to steal one from MikeD)
"He'd make outrageous claims, like he invented the question mark."
MikeD is Dr. Evil? :think: :D
 

shocktower

Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
622
0
Molalla Oregon
I was surprised in how much waste there is in logging they just cut every thing they can ,but they must leave one tree for ever 11 acres :think: :think: :think: ,and then leave some of the trees they cut down for the squirles (sp?) and then all of the other great trees they just burn them ,Hell I may even become a logger ,it`s a crazy job but with my life that would be normal :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ,Oh yeah when they are logging you gotta have a CB radio and now the channels they are one so`s you don`t get runned over by a truck :dead: :dead: