In his case, no.
Troy Brosnan and Sam Hill...
- Thread starter stiksandstones
- Start date
Same here, but you have to admit that lately the guys that are clipped in seem to have an advantage. And even some former flat only riders like Bryceland now clip in when the track "requires" it.
the flats/clips argument reminds me of worlds in 96', when Palmer got 2nd to Nico, by .08
Everyone said "if he would have been in non-moto gear and clips, he would have smoked Nico...I always said, he would have been uncomfortable, out of his element and probably would have crashed or made a 1000 mistakes.
Sam Hill is a flat pedal guy, let it be. Gwin, Greg, Gee are not winning bike races solely because they have a advantage in pedals.
Everyone said "if he would have been in non-moto gear and clips, he would have smoked Nico...I always said, he would have been uncomfortable, out of his element and probably would have crashed or made a 1000 mistakes.
Sam Hill is a flat pedal guy, let it be. Gwin, Greg, Gee are not winning bike races solely because they have a advantage in pedals.
clips are good for courses like sea otter, flats for anything thats gnarly....and i rode clips for 2 years, flats for around the same.
To be fair, Connor is still in school full time, which is why he missed part of this past season. Not to take anything away from Troy of course, but Connor definitely is one to be watched. Next Sam Hill... not so sure.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to William42 again.
I ride both. I race both. Mostly I race in clips. Very few courses offer a substantial advantage to a rider on flats.
Lots of us have had the advantage of watching these guys live in person up close to see their speed. The Palmer argument for worlds is off kilter in a way for me to debate because to this day I've never got to see video of the course or how it was laid out.
I've seen Palmer do amazing and very angry things and I've seen Nico make the best look like they're backing up. Would love to hear both's feedback on how their runs went that day. So much can happen at a single event in a single run for anybody to point that one event.
Anytime I've seen a rider on flats win over a clipped rider, it's because he was just out a faster person period than the other guys that day. Now that talent is really, really leveling out and training is so specialized.....I just can't see riders on flats making advancements over clipped riders.
Hart & Brosnan are easy examples. Their handling skills are similar to Hill's. Time will tell if clipped in, skinny leg drifters are the future or if Gwin and Atherton become the next Minnarr and Peat keeping the youngin's in check.
Don't ruin the fun for the lurkers. Nothing beats the nonsense in a lively clips vs. flats thread.
The Godwin's Law of downhill forums states that all arguments devolve into clips vs. flats debates.
What about Peak(visor) vs No Peak?
Pajamas vs Not Ridiculous Looking Clothes?
I miss those arguments! Bring them back!
************
Props to william42 for I have strong opinions.
From a statistical point of view the only flat pedal rider thats has truly been consistently fast is Hill, which should mean that for consistency clips have a general advantage to flats. Look at Nicos history in world titles and who has been winning the WC overall the last ten years. Not saying that those result only came from the riders being clipped in but i would suspect that it had something to do with it.
I did a test once and rode two flat corners that had a short sprint from the star and between the corners. With flats i got the fastest time but clips was a lot more consistent and that was when i wasnt properly confident on the clips.
I did a test once and rode two flat corners that had a short sprint from the star and between the corners. With flats i got the fastest time but clips was a lot more consistent and that was when i wasnt properly confident on the clips.
Sam's always going to be a favourite of the fans...
Rd 1 Aussie Nats
http://www.rotorburn.com/potd/a/viewphoto/3365
Rd 1 Aussie Nats
http://www.rotorburn.com/potd/a/viewphoto/3365
Sam has a kid on the way, so that could bring out the beast within. I think Sam has always been pretty laid back overall, ie not training loads and just happened to be insanely fast without focused training. Being a father might bring some focus into his life, if he can adopt a genuine athletic approach to conditioning he should be a regular top 3 contender, otherwise it'll be only sporadic sparks of genius.
If SkaTodd reads this, he will be so pissed. Never question Hill's fitness on RM.
I've gotten random emails/PM's from him and Fraser at any point to let me know just how hard Sam trains.
And FYI, I have never questioned the training regimen of any World Cup racer. They are all monstrously fit and get that way through insane work ethic. On the circuit right now, I don't know of a single pro making the main that isn't an elite "athlete".
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Well i dont think i would really put to many of them in the same category as say an elite xc skier or alpine skier, especially xc skier has work etics beyond belief. Just looking at top dh they look quite far from other elite athletes that i have seen and trained with.
I definetly cant say that i am sure, just that i am sceptical. If someone could post some hard facts about any kind of test and show me otherwise i will continue to be sceptical. Even the fact that the topic is being discussed says to me they aint there yet. Because then it would be common knowledge and wouldnt have to be discussed.
I definetly cant say that i am sure, just that i am sceptical. If someone could post some hard facts about any kind of test and show me otherwise i will continue to be sceptical. Even the fact that the topic is being discussed says to me they aint there yet. Because then it would be common knowledge and wouldnt have to be discussed.
... by the way, I find it pretty interesting that both Sam and Troy are back on the alu demos....
@Biz.
There are plenty of them that could up their game. Aaron Gwin is an example of what a well conditioned athlete can do in WC, conditioning isn't the only factor. I'm not saying they aren't pretty fit, but they are not world class athletes. In my opinion a lot of them would be smoked by a top level rugby player, rower, tennis pro, track athlete etc.
Brendan Fairclough is renowned for not pedalling, yet he came 4th in the Worlds, this is a credit to an unbelievably talented rider, but it's also indicative of something else. Gee trains hard, as do others, but even Greg Minaar acknowledged the need to get more serious after last season, the exact quote was "Less bar bills, and more bar bells'. The sport is gradually becoming more professional, and this phase will be acknowledged as a key part of that transitionary period. Sure Peaty regularly has a beer in hand on Saturday practice, how many other sports would he be able to do that and remain in the top tier?
Anyway, this was about Sam and Troy. Sam has the arms of a teenage boy, I love his style, but he does not appear athletic.
There are plenty of them that could up their game. Aaron Gwin is an example of what a well conditioned athlete can do in WC, conditioning isn't the only factor. I'm not saying they aren't pretty fit, but they are not world class athletes. In my opinion a lot of them would be smoked by a top level rugby player, rower, tennis pro, track athlete etc.
Brendan Fairclough is renowned for not pedalling, yet he came 4th in the Worlds, this is a credit to an unbelievably talented rider, but it's also indicative of something else. Gee trains hard, as do others, but even Greg Minaar acknowledged the need to get more serious after last season, the exact quote was "Less bar bills, and more bar bells'. The sport is gradually becoming more professional, and this phase will be acknowledged as a key part of that transitionary period. Sure Peaty regularly has a beer in hand on Saturday practice, how many other sports would he be able to do that and remain in the top tier?
Anyway, this was about Sam and Troy. Sam has the arms of a teenage boy, I love his style, but he does not appear athletic.
You are high...the last few years, the bulk of the field has had more than its fair share of drunk derelicts, who did not take a real approach to 'training' and did not have a whole lot of dedication to creating a life as an athlete. This changed when Gwin got involved, and everyone has realized that you can't ride a pump track a few times a week, do a few DH runs, and get wasted on the weekends...and still find your way to the podium.
If SkaTodd reads this, he will be so pissed. Never question Hill's fitness on RM.
I've gotten random emails/PM's from him and Fraser at any point to let me know just how hard Sam trains.
And FYI, I have never questioned the training regimen of any World Cup racer. They are all monstrously fit and get that way through insane work ethic. On the circuit right now, I don't know of a single pro making the main that isn't an elite "athlete".
smoked at what exactly, their respective sports? training for elite level sports, no matter what they are is so specific how is it even possible to say that?
you know what track worlds was on this year, right?
every sport goes through an evolution where the top players are doing what needs to be done in order to stay at the top, and often not much more than is required. then someone comes along who takes preparation to the next level and those top players see it and realize they now need to re-evaluate their own preparation. for even the most driven humans there is a point where most will say 'this has historically gotten me to the point i want to be at, i'm stopping here.' until that doesn't work anymore it is going to be the norm because the top was still attainable.
do you think mtb is the only professional sport where the athletes drink a beer during their training or competitive season?
i know a lot of great bike riders who are not 'athletic' in the classic sense of the word - i.e.; they would not even be at an intermediate level of athletic endeavors like throwing or hitting a baseball, dribbling a soccer ball or basketball, serving a tennis ball, etc. some people can naturally pick up a lot of sports and be pretty decent or better without much effort (what i would consider classically 'athletic'), others have skills that are more specialized which they excel at easily.
Responding with irrelevant hyperbole is bad argument -- it's fraudulent.
I'd like to see the evidence that, for example, Sam Hill is as fit as Alberto Contador when it comes to cycling fitness.
Or even Aaron Gwin, if you want to look at Sam's 2 year downtime and cut him slack.
Show us how Gwin is as fit as Contador.
Being way more fit than Shaun Palmer in his drunken potsmoking heyday is not the same as being top-caliber cycling fit.
Yes, I'm aware that top road cyclists dope their blood, and ride a totally different style which puts a lot of emphasis on stamina for many hours on the bike each racing day.
So maybe pick a top amateur who's not doping. Is Aaron Gwin as cycling-fit as a top US amateur road racer who specializes in stage races? Is he as cycling-fit as a velodrome racer or keirin racer?
The fact that some pro sports competitors can be drunken slobs and still successful (cough cough John Daly hacking cough puke) doesn't "prove" that today's DH racers are as fit as today's top amateur road racers. It only shows that some sports tolerate drunken non-fit athletes with good hand-eye coordination... because the sport doesn't involve running or other cardio fitness.
Bad comparison, Midget Size. Very bad.
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The other sports comparison is really silly. Especially with sports that relly almost 100% on fitness while in dh it's a smaller part and you also need to be more proficent in your technique.
Also the "I need to get more serious next season" happens in all sports. I know some local pros who are around the level of Polc and their training regime is unbearable.
The Brendog argument is also silly. Not only it was mentioned numerous times that he stepped up his training for the last season but it's a course that doesn't require as much pedalling. That's really downhill. Do you really want dh to be a sport of athleticism over skill.
One last thing for all of the complainers. If you think a young sports = bad athletes do a proper mma training in a school that also does grappling. It's a young sport so it should not tire you to much, just try not to puke on the floor
Also the "I need to get more serious next season" happens in all sports. I know some local pros who are around the level of Polc and their training regime is unbearable.
The Brendog argument is also silly. Not only it was mentioned numerous times that he stepped up his training for the last season but it's a course that doesn't require as much pedalling. That's really downhill. Do you really want dh to be a sport of athleticism over skill.
One last thing for all of the complainers. If you think a young sports = bad athletes do a proper mma training in a school that also does grappling. It's a young sport so it should not tire you to much, just try not to puke on the floor
Not sure if it's still the case, but I know that as of at least 2 years ago Nathan Rennie held the world record for terminal output performed at the AIS- somewhere around 1650W terminal.
Most of the sprinters in the TdF are putting out ~1550W
Seems pretty fit to me...
@ Norbar:
I don't see anyone complaining, it's more so observation. There's no need to say comparisons are silly either, we are all entitled to an opinion. I don't see how any of the above sports I listed are "100% about fitness", rugby, rowing, tennis. It's fair to say they all require huge levels of technical ability as well as top level conditioning. I see you use the word fitness, which people often equate to cardio. You also need power, so I think conditioning is a more appropriate term. Even Aaron Gwin openly acknowledged that DH is
a fair bit behind Moto-x in terms of conditioning, and there's another sport where you need both technical ability and world class conditioning to succeed.
In relation to Brendog, pedalling does not equal fitness. He is renowned for not pedalling, but he is certainly not in peak physical form.
No I don't want the sport to be all about athleticism, but if you've ever done a downhill race you'll know how physical it is. Cornering, popping over roots, landing from drops all requires top level conditioning.
I have no idea what your last point as about.
I don't see anyone complaining, it's more so observation. There's no need to say comparisons are silly either, we are all entitled to an opinion. I don't see how any of the above sports I listed are "100% about fitness", rugby, rowing, tennis. It's fair to say they all require huge levels of technical ability as well as top level conditioning. I see you use the word fitness, which people often equate to cardio. You also need power, so I think conditioning is a more appropriate term. Even Aaron Gwin openly acknowledged that DH is
a fair bit behind Moto-x in terms of conditioning, and there's another sport where you need both technical ability and world class conditioning to succeed.
In relation to Brendog, pedalling does not equal fitness. He is renowned for not pedalling, but he is certainly not in peak physical form.
No I don't want the sport to be all about athleticism, but if you've ever done a downhill race you'll know how physical it is. Cornering, popping over roots, landing from drops all requires top level conditioning.
I have no idea what your last point as about.
No need to be as fit as Contador. Skills/balls/race head are first.
lol your posts are always very special.
viva le skinsuit!
You've just described every sport on earth. The best "commit", the rest are all very legit and athletes in way better shape than you or I, some can even drunk be off their butts and dog us out.
All sports are that way. Example...Matt Leinart:
It doesn't take much more than stupidity to bring them out. Especially on a forum where people think bike riding skills are the same as rhetorical skills -- where they think having the skill to ride a bike means you automatically make sound arguments which make sense logically.
"Modern DH racers are way more fit! John Daly's drunken golfing proves it!"
holy phoque.
1) Power isn't fitness.
2) Wattage has more to do with your genetic gifts than your training regimen, though you can improve your wattage with training. You can't make more power than your particular genetic gifts allow. There's a ceiling for everyone. For some it's higher. That's pretty much what your wattage numbers show. One-Ball Lance had similarly impressive high wattage figures when on the dyno. As I recall, it was attributed to the combination of hard work and genetic gifts. Which is pretty much the case for all high-level athletic endeavor, isn't it? John Daly worked hard at his golf swing as well as his one-arm 12oz curls.
The more interesting thing to me is seeing that modern World Cup DH racers now HAVE TO BE somewhat fit, because skill alone, or skill plus comfort at the bleeding edge of losing one's line, no longer are enough.
Would be interesting to see 7 minute tracks and what that would do to the field.
And don't mistake my commentary for a suggestion that I think I'm some kind of DH or fitness badazz. I'm not. I'm just observing things.
Better than you and I? Dude, no offence but that's a completely irrelevant point. We are talking about word class athletes, people who've made Faustian pacts and dedicated their one life on this planet to being in Grade A shape.
One example does not make an argument, eg the picture of that Matt guy above. It's an association fallacy.
I am not knocking the WC guys, they are probably in good shape, great shape even, but they are not world class athletes.
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Slug, you clearly have very little knowledge on what sport specific fitness actually means. Being 'fit' to play a position as a linebacker in the NFL has little relation to the fitness it takes to be a center in soccer. Your comparison is moot, because it takes a separate type of different fitness to win a DH race vs. a road race. You can bet your bottom dollar a guy like Gwin or Gee is going to have a substantially stronger, faster, and more powerful upper body than your road god. Why? Because they need that to perform, where a road racer just sees it as additional oxygen debt.
Horses for courses, as they say. It's different, and comparing the two shows an imprudent ability to grasp at straws to make a unlikely point.
Horses for courses, as they say. It's different, and comparing the two shows an imprudent ability to grasp at straws to make a unlikely point.
Some of them are. 'world class athlete' just means being world class at your respective sport. Define it better if you mean Hill won't be winning a 100m dash any time soon.
How'd you discern that lack of knowledge? You living inside my head these days, fool?
I put up two comments. They don't resemble everything I know.
What do you know of my athletic pursuits over the course of my lifetime, fool?
As to the rest of your post that I didn't quote -- you show your foolishness by thinking I support the sports comparisons. Try re-reading my posts. I made fun of the comparison to other sports. Did you even notice what I said about John Daly?
Damn. When some of us were reading books and learning how to think and write, what were you doing? Practicing gate starts at the BMX track and ignoring your mental horsepower?
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Wait, how did I get dragged into this
No capital F dude. But I laughed -- out loud!
You're a mental midget who made a comparison to road cycling, proving that you're a fool. That much is obvious.
What's not as obvious to you, is that I'm probably fitter than you, and definitely more intelligent.