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Cerberus75

Monkey
Feb 18, 2017
199
37
This has actually been my experience with linkage forks on scooters. I used to ride a Vespa and then some high-end Hondas (for a scooter) back in the day, and the vagueness I experienced in handling/feeling on flat corners is the thing I remember the most about this type of front suspension. And it certainly isn't inviting me to test this thing.
Reminds me of ball style steering in a performance car. Very numb feeling even if its "better" than Rack and Pinion. You need some feedback to what the tires are doing to react in time.
 
2 air springs will yield double the amount of friction and that even before considering the pressure needed which is around double of a traditional sliding fork.
if it's bladder instead of IFP then you could still end up w/ less friction overall due to the smaller shafts. I don't know if they've mentioned either way. I do agree that smaller air volume + smaller oil volume = higher temps, less consistent etc. The higher air volume in the fatbike tires will make up for it though
 

dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
5,432
225
Reminds me of ball style steering in a performance car. Very numb feeling even if its "better" than Rack and Pinion. You need some feedback to what the tires are doing to react in time.
Wondering if this is the same kind of feeling I had going from a rigid fork to 100mm fork. Everything felt vague... for about a week, then things felt amazing.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,128
482
Wondering if this is the same kind of feeling I had going from a rigid fork to 100mm fork. Everything felt vague... for about a week, then things felt amazing.
I had the exact same feeling. But it only took one ride.

Then, I realized that the Rock Shox RS-1 was so bad, I switched to a Cannondale Headshock and steering was precise again.

oh wait, it didn't feel amazing.
 
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dump

Turbo Monkey
Oct 12, 2001
5,432
225
About time! when I want to know how bike parts handle rowdy as fuck descending where a crash could literally be fatal in nasty rocks and roots, I wait until cycling tips has weighed in.


I didn't even click that. Is it good?
Wait for the vital review.
 

djjohnr

Turbo Monkey
Apr 21, 2002
1,847
468
Northern California
About time! when I want to know how bike parts handle rowdy as fuck descending where a crash could literally be fatal in nasty rocks and roots, I wait until cycling tips has weighed in.


I didn't even click that. Is it good?
Better than I expected, although I didn't exactly have high expectations either.
 

HardtailHack

used an iron once
Jan 20, 2009
2,261
163
Give one to Chris Porter to review.

I was really hoping it was going to have the guts of a Nitro Shox in one leg.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
15,837
939
01776
Empty quote? Just marking this for posterity so you can poke fun later :feminist:

On the other hand I NEED CURVES!!!!!. I can throw up a random rear suspension linkage and get 20 guys to photoshop a pic and give me results, but not one of this fork???

I want to see the rearward, curving upward axle path and see how close it is to the famous Girvin J path....
Time to stop with the linkage shitposting. I get that you are mad we called you out, but don't you think it's funny that you shat all over the analysis we gave and then the practical review from vital lines up pretty well with all the comments given? Especially every comment about falling rates and all that nonsense? I get that you don't like that it's carried out that way. Tough titties, it's proven to be R E L A T I V E L Y accurate, and until designers release their notes and design goals (they won't) it's the best we have. Don't me mad when it's slightly inaccurate or when the math lines up with what the rider feels.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,128
482
Empty quote? Just marking this for posterity so you can poke fun later :feminist:



Time to stop with the linkage shitposting. I get that you are mad we called you out, but don't you think it's funny that you shat all over the analysis we gave and then the practical review from vital lines up pretty well with all the comments given? Especially every comment about falling rates and all that nonsense? I get that you don't like that it's carried out that way. Tough titties, it's proven to be R E L A T I V E L Y accurate, and until designers release their notes and design goals (they won't) it's the best we have. Don't me mad when it's slightly inaccurate or when the math lines up with what the rider feels.
Hahahaaha. No, I'm really serious. I would like to see what this does. But I don't own linkage (software), nor do I really have time.

But, no, the "analysis" of my rig wasn't even close. Nor were the ride predictions. I shat on it even though it didn't even deserve that.

Hell, I got 3.5 stars from vital with the cheapest known shock to man. A shock no brand on earth would let their bike get reviewed with.

I really don't give too much of a shit what vrock or any of those linkage guys said about my bike. They didn't get it, don't get it, won't take the time to understand it.

I'm really good with that. Reality is out there. The bikes ride great, i'm busy as hell. Maybe you should ride it before you continue to pass judgement?

The reason I shit on various Analysis is twofold, first was the incredible inaccuracy and error stackup of photoshopping so many pivots and trying to pretend that it's accurate.

But just as important was a fundamental lack of understanding of the physics involved. Fair enough, "I did the MATH" (to quote somebody else), but then to discredit and discard it rather than try to understand....Every free thinking engineer I know is ashamed of that display. Period.

Back to the fork, obviously, the axle path, leverage ratio and anti dive characteristics are all touted and talked up. I am genuinely and honestly surprised nobody has taken this up and shown some curves.

We have a very straightforward fork linkage layout, with some pretty good pictures to photoshop. This is the stuff that "linkage" is made for. Nothing too tricky, put in some numbers and spit out some curves.

BTW, I use the term "linkage nerd" lovingly. Maybe not so much for the dogma followers, but for people that appreciate and evaluate linkages for fun.

So, since you brought it up..C'mon somebody. the biggest name in suspension makes a big splash and we can't even get a curve??
 

shirk007

Monkey
Apr 14, 2009
307
108
So I just opened my copy of Linkage....no option to model a linkage fork. Just single crown or double crown in usd or none usd.

We'll need to bust out some CAD or old school pencil n paper it.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,128
482
So I just opened my copy of Linkage....no option to model a linkage fork. Just single crown or double crown in usd or none usd.

We'll need to bust out some CAD or old school pencil n paper it.
Just put it in reverse and leave out the chain. Anti Squat =anti dive.

I brought up free body diagrams in the past and people thought I was talking about porn.......
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,128
482
there's no option to remove the chain in linkage, just look at the Anti-Rise ( = Anti-Dive)
I have never fired up the program.

I assumed there was a separate force vector input for chain pull as well as the tire/ground interface.

I tend to calculate those separately
 

hmcleay

i-track suspension
Apr 28, 2008
116
102
Adelaide, Australia
but basically, you are agreeing that Linkage can spit out the curves I am asking about?
Definitely.
Anti-Dive ( = Anti-Rise)
Leverage Ratio is the same as with a rear suspension, although it's difficult to see how the 'shock' is mounted internally.
Mechanical Trail can't be plotted directly, but can be interpreted from the axle path plot.
 

Tantrum Cycles

Turbo Monkey
Jun 29, 2016
1,128
482
Definitely.
Anti-Dive ( = Anti-Rise)
Leverage Ratio is the same as with a rear suspension, although it's difficult to see how the 'shock' is mounted internally.
Mechanical Trail can't be plotted directly, but can be interpreted from the axle path plot.
ya cool.

All whatever aside, this is a great topic, and right up linkage's ally.

No, I'm not implying that linkage will tell me how it rides. Simply that it will tell me what it does.

The ride is like, you know, another flavor you never tried (I do like that DW)

But I'd like to see where the wheel goes.

A telescopic fork is a little easier to visualize, what with all that ideal straight line rearward axle path and all.

As somebody else way more angry and shitposting than I pointed out, trail is a bit of an anomaly once everything is in motion, so it's just another number to form an opinion about.

My interest in this subject.....I raced this once

dkw-125.jpg
 

mtg

Green with Envy
Sep 21, 2009
1,477
827
Denver, CO
The Pro version of Linkage is only $200 for a perpetual license, or also known as the most reasonably priced engineering software out there. And, there’s a personal version for $20.