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Tubeless?

Discussion in 'Cross Country, All Mountain & Trail Riding' started by Lumberjack, Jan 28, 2008.

  1. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    Who's running tubeless and what is the set up you are running? I started running tubeless on my 26" bike right before I sold it and really liked the way the bike handled and rolled. I'm going to set both of my 29'rs up tubeless in the next couple of weeks.
     

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  2. jncarpenter

    jncarpenter Monkey

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    Running tubeless with stans flow rims, Specialized resolution front & captain rear. Using liquid latex from the art store.
     
  3. MMcG

    MMcG Ride till you puke!

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    Do you use Stan's rim strips or do you make your own?
     
  4. ferday

    ferday Chimp

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    according to mtbr, most existing 29er tires should work ok.

    i'm getting some flows built up, these will be my first tubeless experiment as well....i'll be using rampage/ignitor combo for tires.
     
  5. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    For right now I'm looking at Ignitors and Small Blocks. Summer probably Cross Marks
     
  6. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    It's all voodoo I tells ya.

    Seriously though if you have any specific questions on setup, etc. let me know.
     
  7. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    I called over over to the Stan's office yesterday to try and figure out which rim strip to use on the TN 719's. They said it was the plus 4 strip. Never dealt with that strip before. Just ordered it from BTI so we'll see whats up shortly.
     
  8. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    I have a Chris King/Flow wheelset that I have the yellow strip and valve installed on. I am going to run wire bead ExiWolfs on these.

    My question is, does Stan's have a removable core presta valve stem, or will I be required to break the bead everytime I need to replenish with fresh Stan's goop? The valve stems that came with the build do not appear to be of this type.

    My experience with the Bontrager system was good in this regard that they do have removeable core presta valve stems which makes adding goop super easy.
     
  9. north20

    north20 Chimp

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    Here ya go:

    http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_59/products_id/41


    I bought mine through Universal; I'd imagine a few of the online retailers stock them at the very least.
     
  10. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    All of our valves have removable valve cores and I designed a sexy little tool for removing them as well. Our rims will work with any of the valves we sell but the Olympic model is really the one that is intended for the ZTR rims. http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_59/products_id/123

    *edit* if you need valves we can send some direct or BTI carries them all I believe.
     
  11. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    Yep, the Plus 4 is the one. The same strip is used in the DT 7.1, VXC 29er and a few others.
     
  12. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    Thanks man. I'm super stoked to get these wheels set up. I've built several sets of these wheels lately and the locals that bought them are chomping at the bit to try mine with the tubeless set up.
     
  13. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    Thanks Mike! I thought there should be something like this. I will double check what is in there, as they may already be these. They just didn't look like it at first inspection.

    I'll be posting back with my experiences after I get these up and rolling soon.
     
  14. ByStickel

    ByStickel Chimp

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    I'm on Stan's Flow and am very happy. Prior to them, I had tried the rubber rimstrip Stan's conversion on DT 26" rims and it was horrible; I'd burp the tires numerous times during each ride and would have to stop to add air. No such issues with the Stan's rim.

    I'm running Nevegal front 25psi/ Resolution rear 30psi. The Resolution's sidewalls are really too thin for rocky areas. I've never torn one, but even scuffs will cause air loss. I've had to patch the interior a few times so far. The Nev has been trouble-free.
     
  15. MMcG

    MMcG Ride till you puke!

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    I've heard the Panaracer Fire XC 29ers sold through IRD have very solid sidewalls - perhaps they'd be a good Stan's tire candidate.
     
  16. donkeyWC

    donkeyWC Chimp

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    Is anyone running Stan's rims w/ yellow tape and no goop? If so, what is the setup and how does the pressure hold over time?
     
  17. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    Every 29er tire currently available requires sealant.

    If you're talking 26" you can use a UST tire on our rims without sealant. However, we don't spec an air tight weld though they typically are. A dose of sealant with the initial installation will seal any imperfections in the weld. After than you can go without sealant.
     
  18. donkeyWC

    donkeyWC Chimp

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    thanks mike. i thought i read somewhere that someone was running stan's flows + yellow tape and no sealant with good results even though no companies (rim or tire mfg'ers) suggest doing so in the 29ers.
     
  19. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    Okay, I do have the removable valve cores! Hurray! Only now I have another question. Hopefully somebody here can give me some valuable advice from experience.

    Okay, I am having fits with getting the bead to stop leaking on one of my wire bead ExiWolfs. The front tire seems okay. The rear is leaking down within a half an hour. Not good!

    My hunch is that the bead is not properly seated and here's why. My front didn't quit leaking down until I pumped it up a bit over 50psi and heard a loud pop. This is much like it is with Bontragers system, which they advise you to do. (With a recommendation of airing it up to 60psi!) This isn't at all what I found on the Stan's site, which cautions going over 40psi or so. Maybe I got lucky going so high with the front.

    Anybody got any recommendations/advice on whether it is good to take this thing up to around 60psi and get the bead to seat on my ExiWolf? I think that is what it would take, but I also don't want a blowoff, obviously.

    Man! Tubes are sooo much easier to deal with, but I keep getting encouraged to try this tubeless stuff out. So, I'm forging on.
     
  20. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    GT - Never inflate over 40 psi!

    Ok, got that off my chest. Did you use soapy water on the beads when you inflated the tires? If a tire doesn't seat at ~30 psi something is not right. Lots of folks think pressure is the way to seat a tire but that is a bad practice. Deflate, soapy suds (very little water needed) brushed on both beads then inflate slowly to 20-25 psi and check to see if the beads are coming up evenly. If there is a low spot, press in and up on the sidewall with your thumbs to shift the bead. Keep inflating and by the time you hit ~30 psi, everything should be popping in to place. Check the concentric line at the top edge of the rim to make sure it's even and you should be good to go.

    Tubeless might seem difficult but it's not, it's different. I've never met a tire I couldn't inflate or seal though some are easier than others. There is a learning curve. Tubes have been around forever and I used them for a long time but I promise you, I can setup a tubeless system quicker than I can install a tube these days. I've had to install one tube on the trail in the last 7 years.

    Feel free to post, give me a call or e-mail through our web form if you have any other specific questions.
     
  21. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    Mike: Thanks for that reply. I'll try again as recommended by you here. Maybe my soapy solution wasn't "soapy" enough. Then again, I also thought I should take a look at that bead. If there is a big chunk of "flashing" at a mold line, that could be a problem, I'm thinking. A possibility I didn't check for before I mounted the tire last time.

    It'll have to wait until after work today, but I'll report back here.

    Thanks again!
     
  22. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    It's worth a check. The other thing on CST made tires is they often have a large (in my opinion) rib every 5" or so along the bead and they can be a leak point. Much like the small grooves perpendicular to the bead on a Kenda tire. If saw one of our Crows up close you'd see there are no grooves at the bead for just this reason.
     
  23. aktallguy

    aktallguy Monkey

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    Neat post, keep the info coming! I may have to try this on my new 29'er when I get it built up. Should have all the parts in by this Fri/Sat. I'll post tubeless results when I give them a try in 2-3 weeks.
     
  24. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    Should have my tubeless set up today. Using Ignitors to start with.:monkeydance:
     
  25. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    Leaking at each one of those mold lines. I guess I'll have to pull it off and use a different tire.

    Bummer! I have a lot of time wrapped up in this already.
     
  26. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    Since its just the mold line and has nothing to do with the tire casing itself couldn't you just lightly buzz that off with an abrasive wheel.

    Before anyone jumps down my throat about warranty issuses or anythingelse it was just an idea. I'm not trying to stir the pot. I've only used 26" UST tires before and with the new set up for my 29'r they are regular tires. If its a bad idea I'm sorry. Chalk it up to being a tubeless newb.
     
  27. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    The bead on a 29"er tire seems to be under a lot more stress than a 26"er. I've read about WTB's former aramid beads that were supposedly segmented and that those would explode spectacularly in 29"er tubeless applications where as the 26"ers were okay. (Note: WTB has since changed he beads, as far as I've been told.)

    So, I am very careful about bead damage and certainly I wouldn't recommend trimming that mold line back. I would much rather go to a different tire. MikeB may have something different to say about this, but that's my take.
     
  28. aktallguy

    aktallguy Monkey

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    Would just rubbing off some mold line flashing really damage the tire that much? Seems like rubbing the sidewall against a rock a few times would have the same effect, but I certainly hope that wouldn't blow out my tire. Perhaps my inexperience speaking, but I would think some light grit sand paper should help things seal up without taking much of anything off the tire.
     
  29. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    Well, as to the sanding question, I would really hesitate to do that. It would be too easy to compromise that bead area and I just wouldn't be comfortable with that myself.

    I spoke with a Bontrager tire designer/engineer once about this "mold release" line stuff and he cautioned me against this type of activity. I figure if he was against it, I should heed that warning. (We were discussing Bontragers Tubeless Ready System) That conversation is what reminded me to check that in my current situation with the WTB ExiWolf I'm trying to convert.

    So again, I'm thinking I'll try something different. I'll have to go forage in the tire pile and see what I have.........
     
  30. Monkeybidnezz

    Monkeybidnezz Turbo Monkey

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    Thanks for being the guinea pig....errr laying the ground work Scotty...:busted:
     
  31. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    No, I would not sand or otherwise alter the area. I would however apply soapy water to the inflated tire around the bead and sidewall area and do the little shake and rotate then lay flat as shown in our install video. Follow the forming bubbles in the soapy solution to know where you need to concentrate your efforts. You can't rush or skip these steps as it the only way to ensure the sealant has had an opportunity to reach the leak. If you only have a very slow leak remaining just take them for a ride. Air retention gets better over the first few days as all the tiny pores are filled.

    WTB wire beads are some of the easiest to seal typically, but I have lots of practice which goes back to the learning curve bit. Maxxis, Geax, Schwalbe, and even some Kenda tires seal rather easily. The last set of Karmas I installed on my own 29er were nearly perfect out of the box. Nothing personal GT, I have the same talk with folks every day about sealing. Not saying this isn't a special case but the tire does not seal on the outside edge against the rim but rather the bottom edge against the "bench" portion of the rim. You can (and we have) use a rim tubeless that otherwise has NO outer wall beyond a small bump to prevent outward slip.

    I only mentioned those ribs previously as a leak point because indentations, extra large letters, fancy "marks" (Conti checkerboard) in the sidewall and bead area draw rubber away from the already thin casing. Every place that is thin is more likely to leak. I can't give everything away here but there are steps the tire makers can take to improve the sealing ability of tires without adding weight. I'm getting off track here I suppose and should probably shut up now.

    My point though is that beyond the learning curve there are things that can be done to improve tire sealing but tire manufacturers are not giving them to consumers. Sealant does not cause any issues in tires and as we're seeing with more tubeless ready models coming in 26" & 29" not too many want to haul around the extra weight of a sealant-less tubeless tire design and the cost of materials (namely butyl) is way up. Companies could make a couple small changes, offer one model (tubeless ready) of a tire and give consumers the option but as one high ranking individual at a major tire company told me, they have too much invested in UST to do anything different which came across as incredibly short sighted to me. Tire molds are not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and the existing UST molds could be used in a tubeless ready capacity but that doesn't account for the cost of years of development and marketing. There is opportunity for cost reduction in manufacturing, development, marketing, etc, passed on in reduced cost to the consumer and overall easier to use product. Can anyone tell I worked on some major cost reduction efforts in my previous work in mass transit and aerospace? Time for a beer.
     
  32. Guitar Ted

    Guitar Ted Monkey

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    I went back and checked my tire again after work yesterday and it wasn't completely flat! Halellujah!

    So I checked the bead and it seems to be stuck pretty good now. I aired it up......waited........it go soft after a few hours, aired up again, rotated, shook, did the twist, (you get the idea).......waited....went to bed. Woke up this morning and it made it overnight at a rideable pressure. Cool! Still lost a bit of air, but much improvement.

    Still, it took six days to get this far!

    That's okay now. At least I can test this system out now that it is reliable enough for a ride or two.
     
  33. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    Mavic + Ignitor + Stan's plus four = one happy camper. I'll run this for a bit and then I've got some WTBs and Kendas to work with this spring.
     
  34. Lumberjack

    Lumberjack Monkey

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    Yesterday in the mud,roots and slick rock I was lovin' the the way the tires hooked up. The rear felt a little soft at first but the first slick climb and I was thinking why did I wait so long?
     
  35. ryangt

    ryangt Chimp

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    So far with stans i had a:

    WTB Dual duty rims + WTB tires + stans 29er kit and it was pretty good

    currently:

    Mavic SS29's + Mountain Kings + Stans 29er kit and it is the teets!!!

    i do wish for a removable core presta, because from what im told, these ones will have to get the end of the valve stem circumsized if i want to use the sealant injector, what a pain in the ass.
     
  36. Mike B.

    Mike B. Turbo Monkey

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    Both Mavic and ourselves (Stan's) have a removable core presta valve available. In Australia, check with Dirt Works for our version.
     
  37. jonnynails

    jonnynails Monkey

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    Just another day in the Ghetto...
    My tubeless set up on my 29er is with Bontrager race lite wheels, maxxis ardent on the front, maxxis crossmark on the rear, 3 cups of stans in each tire, and the bontrager tubeless rim strips. First try the tires were not sealing and I was asking myself why I wanted to stop using tubes - and then I read the directions on the stans website with the side to side shaking and laying the tire on it's side and finally going out and riding it. Amazing what reading directions does - been a week now and still holding the original pressure.
     
  38. katze

    katze Chimp

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    I run a ghetto tubeless set of Salsa Semi's with Racing Ralphs 2.4 and Stan's fluid. So far it feels perfect, you only have to check your pressure regularly.