Tubeless

jonKranked · Sep 23, 2019

i'm still on tubes only because i don't ride DH often enough to care. i put some sealant into my tubes just in case.

that being said - if i were to start dh'ing on the regular again, i'd run cush core which requires tubeless.

kidwoo · Sep 23, 2019

Way better than tubeless trail bike tires until recently. For many years dh tires were the only ones that really worked tubeless for me.

People still think tubeless is a way to run less air pressure. That's stupid, you're taking away structural support without a tube. I run slightly MORE pressure.

Jm_ · Sep 23, 2019

DH tire casings are extremely important and running enough pressure to avoid pinching the tire. As you notice, those don't seal well, if at all, and they are hard to repair. That's not really a tubeless thing, that's just a running too little pressure thing. I was running non-DH casing tires at the park on the last day and sliced the rear open, a 1" hole ain't going to seal no matter what I'm running, and I punctured the front 3x on sharp rocks, luckily tire-plugs worked. Those issues are specific to not running DH casings.

I mention that because, I've had zero flats between 4 bikes for well over a year, a few instances of punctures and sealant doing it's job. I had a "close call" in Bentonville a few years back where I forgot to bring my extra tube and got a rock puncture like above...but luckily after a little walking it sealed up. That saved my a$$. So "regular flats" have become a total rarity, anything that punctures usually seals up, much of the time, I never even know about it, like with all the thorns I pick up in Texas and AZ, the tires just seal up and you only realize it when you inspect them closely when changing worn out tires. When I did have a problem beyond about a year and a half, it was the same issue you have, I didn't run enough pressure and pinched the tire. That time I had also been lulled into a false sense of security, not being far from home and not having had a flat in a few years...so again I was without a tube and had to walk out 5-7 miles or so.

jonKranked · Sep 23, 2019

Electric_City said:
I never ran tubeless in my DH bike or DH tires though. I'm reluctant to. The pinch was on a Maxxis DHR 2 (not dhf like I posted above). I forget if it was DD or EXO casing, but on my 6" bike. I hit a rock hard that would have flatted a tube also. But the sealant didn't do its job in 2 pinholes. That's why I can't justify it. It seems unjustified-Get a flat with a tube, replace tube. Get a flat with tubeless, replace with tube.

how much sealant did you have in the tire?

jonKranked · Sep 23, 2019

interesting. the only times i haven't had a small puncture seal it turned out i was low on sealant.

jstuhlman · Sep 23, 2019

i run my nomad as a do-it-all and i don't ride "lightly." lots of rides far from civilization; i do bring a tube in my pack. I used to run exo dhfs, and did have some occasional puncture/burping issues. biggest difference for me has been the switch to double down casings. sure there's a small weight penalty, but zero issues about a year in.

Nick · Sep 23, 2019

I've not flatted in years since switching to tubeless. (knock wood) I used to pinch 1-2x a month, every month.

I experimented with the lower pressure thing too, got down to stupid low for my fat ass, and returned to around 25/27 in EXO and DD casing Maxxis tires.

Olly · Sep 23, 2019

Electric_City said:
In my experience and from what I've witnessed is that tubeless might be working...Until it doesn't.

My experience is much the same (but it's all on trail bikes - the DH bike has cobwebs). The difference between tubeless and tubes is i'll puncture about once a year on tubeless, as opposed to about once a ride on tubes. When I do puncture, it tends to be a proper pinch flat right down near the bead/rim interface (where sealant doesn't tend to work). It's usually because I wasn't running enough pressure. A tube gets me home, then I'll fix it up properly with a plug. An insert like Cushcore or a tougher tyre would probably stop it happening, but it's so rare already... but like I said, trail bikes, so feel free to ignore

FlipFantasia · Sep 23, 2019

ran dh casing maxxis tubeless for the past 4 years with zero problems or flats, biggest problem was sealant drying out half way through the season and just having to top up to prevent that ride to ride loss of pressure.

slyfink · Sep 23, 2019

jstuhlman said:
i run my nomad as a do-it-all and i don't ride "lightly." lots of rides far from civilization; i do bring a tube in my pack. I used to run exo dhfs, and did have some occasional puncture/burping issues. biggest difference for me has been the switch to double down casings. sure there's a small weight penalty, but zero issues about a year in.

Olly said:
My experience is much the same (but it's all on trail bikes - the DH bike has cobwebs). The difference between tubeless and tubes is i'll puncture about once a year on tubeless, as opposed to about once a ride on tubes. When I do puncture, it tends to be a proper pinch flat right down near the bead/rim interface (where sealant doesn't tend to work). It's usually because I wasn't running enough pressure. A tube gets me home, then I'll fix it up properly with a plug. An insert like Cushcore or a tougher tyre would probably stop it happening, but it's so rare already... but like I said, trail bikes, so feel free to ignore

I'm in the same boat as these two gentlemen. Before tubeless, I would get a pinch flat every two or three rides. After tubeless, I'd get two to three pinch flats a year (with EXO and Snakeskin casings). I haven't been able to find a way to fix a pinch flat on a tubeless tire because the cuts tend to be too close to the bead, and there is too much leverage at that point for any patch to hold properly.

Since the advent of DD casings, I can actually wear out a tire before having to replace it. I killed my first DD tire last month, but a) it was almost worn out anyways, b) I think I'd forgotten to top it up with air, and c) I aired blindly and aggressively into a rock garden at a high rate of speed. I paid the price for doing c) after b). But because of a), I wasn't too fussed.

Sandwich · Sep 23, 2019

slyfink said:
Since the advent of DD casings, I can actually wear out a tire before having to replace it. I killed my first DD tire last month, but a) it was almost worn out anyways, b) I think I'd forgotten to top it up with air, and c) I aired blindly and aggressively into a rock garden at a high rate of speed. I paid the price for doing c) after b). But because of a), I wasn't too fussed.

holy shit, that was like a choose your own misadventure book. E) you died

Sandwich · Sep 23, 2019

My own experience-
I got real with wheels after switching from 650b bikes to 29ers. Went full retard with carbon hoops, single ply tires, and tubeless. The change in rolling resistance was incredible. The bike was so much faster. Too many variables to compare scientifically, but it was an incredible sensation. My front wheel has been great, but the rear continuously leaked and gave me trouble until I switched to an exo casing tire. Would have bought dual exos fr/rr if I hadn't already purchased. No issues with pinch flats or punctures, but I typically run reasonable air pressure and ride trails, not gnarcore DH runs.

For DH, I'm still on 26. I got frustrated with constantly pinch flatting my conti tires, so I ditched them, grabbed #wooapproved G4s, and set them up toobless as an experiment. My rims are too dinged to make a great seal...I get a days worth of air pressure out of my setup, but again the change in weight and rolling resistance is incredible. I can maintain so much more speed on jump lines thanks to these tires. That's literally the only change, aside from temperature. On bumpy stuff it's been fine, but I tend to overinflate rather than under (think 32 psi or so). It's about the same in feel as a conti at 28psi plus a DH tube, which was the only way to prevent pinch flats.

OGRipper · Sep 23, 2019

Not riding a real DH bike much these days, but just chiming in with another vote for Double Down tubeless tires in the rear for trail bikes. Tried EXO+ to save some weight and that tire lasted less than a month. DD are heavy but worth it for me. I can get away with EXO in front.

Also, I was skeptical at first but plugs actually work for many punctures that won't seal with sealant alone. Definitely worth trying before pulling your tire and adding a tube.

SkaredShtles · Sep 23, 2019

OGRipper said:
Not riding a real DH bike much these days, but just chiming in with another vote for Double Down tubeless tires in the rear for trail bikes. Tried EXO+ to save some weight and that tire lasted less than a month. DD are heavy but worth it for me. I can get away with EXO in front.

Also, I was skeptical at first but plugs actually work for many punctures that won't seal with sealant alone. Definitely worth trying before pulling your tire and adding a tube.

Ima have to get me some of these "plugs" you speak of...

HAB · Sep 23, 2019

I've been too skeered to leave a plugged tire on long term, but they've let me finish rides with holes that sealant was never, ever going to seal before. Would recommend.

Jm_ · Sep 23, 2019

Plugs are fine. Bigger cuts may require sewing, vulcanizing the rubber and a patch/boot, shoe goo, etc. It’s never 100% effective for a cut near the bead, it may work or it may not. Plugs definitely work, that’s what they put in your car tires.

OGRipper · Sep 23, 2019

I understand the skepticism but I've had plugs last 2 - 3 months without any issue - they outlasted the tread. An admittedly lighter person I know had a plug at the bead on a carbon rim for 4 months - again, 'til the tire wore out and needed replacing anyway. Worth checking out for sure.

toodles · Sep 23, 2019

I've had plugs last the life of a new tyre no worries. Either bacon strip style or Dynaplugs have worked for me on DD casings. Sidewall tears and cuts near the bead are still the really shit ones. I've never had much success fixing those except to put a tube in with something over hole if its big enough to let the tube hernia itself out.

Rhubarb · Sep 23, 2019

kidwoo said:
Way better than tubeless trail bike tires until recently. For many years dh tires were the only ones that really worked tubeless for me.

People still think tubeless is a way to run less air pressure. That's stupid, you're taking away structural support without a tube. I run slightly MORE pressure.

Same for me. I found the concept of lower pressure with toobless didn’t work, just a feeling of less support. Plus I also feel like I have a flat tire or I am losing air and this is distracting. Same Psi or slightly higher, with benefit of no pinch flats. Oh, I also tend to burp tires if the pressure is too low.

Just fitted the newer generation (only just switched to 27.5) Maxxis Exo casing DHF/DHR II tires and they inflated straight away and barely lost any air from day 1. Didn’t need to do the old rotate the wheel, lay it on the side, rotate, flip it over, and repeat saga. I’m impressed so far.

Bikael Molton · Sep 23, 2019

I don't know how Stans is formulated these days, but I switched to Orange Seal with particulates, plus I often add ground pepper and am relatively satisfied with the results.

I also carry plugs, and will be setting myself calendar reminders to add more jizz on a regular basis: I swear the latex goes dry in my tires faster during summer, probably because it's like 100 degrees in my uninsulated garage.

toodles · Sep 23, 2019

rpet said:
I don't know how Stans is formulated these days, but I switched to Orange Seal with particulates, plus I often add ground pepper and am relatively satisfied with the results.

Stans is still all liquid from what I've seen. I prefer the sealants with particulates like E.13, Peatys or Orange Seal.

The Orange Seal endurance stuff is supposed to last longer in the tyres, but I've not tried it. The Finish Line sealant promised a huge increase in lifespan but I've heard it doesn't seal that well.

Jm_ · Sep 23, 2019

toodles said:
Stans is still all liquid from what I've seen. I prefer the sealants with particulates like E.13, Peatys or Orange Seal.

The Orange Seal endurance stuff is supposed to last longer in the tyres, but I've not tried it. The Finish Line sealant promised a huge increase in lifespan but I've heard it doesn't seal that well.

Well, finish line didn't do the one thing it was at least expected to do...seal shit.

I'm super happy making my own sealant, been doing it for around 7-8 years now, works like a charm. Use distilled water for a bit longer life and less gunk. Use more ammonia and RV antifreeze to make your mix last longer. Add a little water, RV antifreeze and ammonia as a "hop up" to keep the latex liquid. That's what suspends and keeps it liquid, when those dry out/go away, it hardens. 1 part ammonia, 1 part latex mold builder from michael's, 1 part RV anti-freeze, 1 part auto-slime (I use it for the ground rubber particulates and filaments) and 2-3 parts water. I tend to use more like 2 parts water and thin it as necessary, since I use the thicker mixture at times, like when I've used a plug recently. Shake well, I store it in mason jars, bam, works perfectly. It's really simple ****.

Jm_ · Sep 23, 2019

Have you considered Oliver's Yes Tubes® ?

slyfink · Sep 24, 2019

Jm_ said:
Well, finish line didn't do the one thing it was at least expected to do...seal shit.

I'm super happy making my own sealant, been doing it for around 7-8 years now, works like a charm. Use distilled water for a bit longer life and less gunk. Use more ammonia and RV antifreeze to make your mix last longer. Add a little water, RV antifreeze and ammonia as a "hop up" to keep the latex liquid. That's what suspends and keeps it liquid, when those dry out/go away, it hardens. 1 part ammonia, 1 part latex mold builder from michael's, 1 part RV anti-freeze, 1 part auto-slime (I use it for the ground rubber particulates and filaments) and 2-3 parts water. I tend to use more like 2 parts water and thin it as necessary, since I use the thicker mixture at times, like when I've used a plug recently. Shake well, I store it in mason jars, bam, works perfectly. It's really simple ****.

and you can make as much, or as little as you need. This way, it stays fresh longer. A typical bottle of commercial sealant has a shelf life of one year. maybe. I purchased the necessary supplies last summer, and have only had to make two batches. I still have lots left for another two or three batches I'd say. so at least three years' worth.

jonKranked · Sep 24, 2019

slyfink said:
and you can make as much, or as little as you need. This way, it stays fresh longer. A typical bottle of commercial sealant has a shelf life of one year. maybe. I purchased the necessary supplies last summer, and have only had to make two batches. I still have lots left for another two or three batches I'd say. so at least three years' worth.

i've definitely used stans past its shelf life then.

canadmos · Sep 24, 2019

I was always a hold out on the tubeless front, but switched over two years ago or so. I don't see much downside to it and I've never had any problems.

The only thing is having to really watch the tire pressure, otherwise if it gets too low they burp on every corner.

kidwoo · Sep 24, 2019

Jm_ said:
Well, finish line didn't do the one thing it was at least expected to do...seal shit.

I'm super happy making my own sealant, been doing it for around 7-8 years now, works like a charm. Use distilled water for a bit longer life and less gunk. Use more ammonia and RV antifreeze to make your mix last longer. Add a little water, RV antifreeze and ammonia as a "hop up" to keep the latex liquid. That's what suspends and keeps it liquid, when those dry out/go away, it hardens. 1 part ammonia, 1 part latex mold builder from michael's, 1 part RV anti-freeze, 1 part auto-slime (I use it for the ground rubber particulates and filaments) and 2-3 parts water. I tend to use more like 2 parts water and thin it as necessary, since I use the thicker mixture at times, like when I've used a plug recently. Shake well, I store it in mason jars, bam, works perfectly. It's really simple ****.

If I'm going to put that much work into something readily available for cheaper, it better taste like lasagna. And filet.

Jm_ · Sep 24, 2019

kidwoo said:
If I'm going to put that much work into something readily available for cheaper, it better taste like lasagna. And filet.

It's got antifreeze. So yes.

slyfink · Sep 24, 2019

kidwoo said:
If I'm going to put that much work into something readily available for cheaper, it better taste like lasagna. And filet.

there's a local pub that makes filet mignon poutine. it's the perfect après meal...

kidwoo · Sep 24, 2019

That sounds way better than that shit JM's spilling all over his shoes.

Jm_ · Sep 24, 2019

kidwoo said:
That sounds way better than that shit JM's spilling all over his shoes.

Plus, it'll seal your arteries.

SkaredShtles · Sep 24, 2019

slyfink said:
there's a local pub that makes filet mignon poutine. it's the perfect après meal...

We definitely are going to need a monocle smiley that has a mullet. @binary visions... @binary visions to a white courtesy phone, please.

Tubeless

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ridiculously corgi proportioned

Monkey

goofy for life

ridiculously corgi proportioned

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sled dog's bollocks

Turbo Monkey

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Cake Tease

Artisanal Tweet Curator

sled dog's bollocks

Turbo Monkey

Artisanal Tweet Curator

sled dog's bollocks

Michael Bolton