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Turner goes non-horst...

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
Nooooo, the world is coming to an end!!

I'm not seeing as video at the first link, is there supposed to be one?

That's actually pretty shocking to me. Turner claims that the only reason they ditched horst-link is because the axle path is no different from a single-pivot? Well duh. But then it confuses me why Turner would claim that a horst-link closer to the ground like on the NRS is more effective. Sure, it changes the shape of the axle-path more, but that's not the point of the horst-link...
 

bballboy388

Monkey
Dec 4, 2004
812
0
i thought it ment that they wont be using the horst link for that bike in the second link cause its single piviot. wouldnt that mean for there 4bar linkage ones they would still use it?
 

Sherpa

Basking in fail.
Jan 28, 2004
2,240
0
Arkansaw
bballboy388 said:
i thought it ment that they wont be using the horst link for that bike in the second link cause its single piviot. wouldnt that mean for there 4bar linkage ones they would still use it?
Go to an English class, please.
 

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
bballboy388 said:
i thought it ment that they wont be using the horst link for that bike in the second link cause its single piviot. wouldnt that mean for there 4bar linkage ones they would still use it?
In the first link Turner makes it clear that they are dropping the horst-link from all models.

For the Highline, dropping the horst-link makes perfect sense. Even with a horst-link, the orientation of the top link would cause the frame to brake like a single-pivot.
 

Fulton

Monkey
Nov 9, 2001
825
0
I for one am kinda happy about this. Should bring the frame price down, and I can't tell the difference between a ventana X-5 (non horst), and turner 5 spot (horst), suspension wise.
 

ChrisRobin

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
3,083
79
Vancouver
RPG said:
Turner is now a KONA???? I guess I'll be waiting for the new IH Type 6 instead of a 6 pack. I'm dissappointed.
If I remember correctly, Turner came up with that suspension system first and then everyone else used it.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,695
498
NC
RPG said:
Turner is now a KONA???? I guess I'll be waiting for the new IH Type 6 instead of a 6 pack. I'm dissappointed.
Care to inform us of the significant differences between the Horst and non-Horst suspension designs?
 

Grizzle

Monkey
Sep 7, 2005
216
0
La Crescenta, CA
the only major advantage that the horst link had was that it helped isolate the brake caliper mount from the swingarms rotation. Basically, without the horst link, when you grab rear brake, the rear suspension will compress a little. With horst link, the rear suspension stays where it is more.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,695
498
NC
Grizzle said:
the only major advantage that the horst link had was that it helped isolate the brake caliper mount from the swingarms rotation. Basically, without the horst link, when you grab rear brake, the rear suspension will compress a little. With horst link, the rear suspension stays where it is more.
Right. Actually, I knew the difference, I was just baiting RPG there to see if he was under the typical delusion that a Horst link provides a magical, verticle axle path that somehow causes it to do everything perfectly ;)
 

Grizzle

Monkey
Sep 7, 2005
216
0
La Crescenta, CA
binary visions said:
Right. Actually, I knew the difference, I was just baiting RPG there to see if he was under the typical delusion that a Horst link provides a magical, verticle axle path that somehow causes it to do everything perfectly ;)
Oh, right. Sorry, i forgot to mentoin that the seatstay bars are made with flubber impregnated titanium, making them absorb the largest bumps and pedal bob, turning it directly into forward SPEED!!!
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,695
498
NC
Grizzle said:
Oh, right. Sorry, i forgot to mentoin that the seatstay bars are made with flubber impregnated titanium, making them absorb the largest bumps and pedal bob, turning it directly into forward SPEED!!!
Ahahaha... Awesome.

New signature :thumb: :D
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,349
2,537
AK
chillindrdude said:
hurray for increased brake jack
Yep, increased brake jack, and poorer pedaling characteristics. Low pivot single pivot bikes rely more on platforms to pedal better. Even ridden a concentric pivot? LOL... Increased brake squat and stiffening is going to happen as a result of caliper rotation, which will exist on the "new" turners.

I have an "old" turner :D
 

RPG

Monkey
Jun 14, 2004
112
0
All over New England
binary visions said:
Right. Actually, I knew the difference, I was just baiting RPG there to see if he was under the typical delusion that a Horst link provides a magical, verticle axle path that somehow causes it to do everything perfectly ;)
Hey, I know that all this horst link bs is marketing hype derived by specialized. I was just taken back by the shock of the change. I've owned 3 turners, 2 of which were single pivots. I just would like to know if they abandoned the link due to license fees. For my application, trail bike, pivot placement doesn't matter.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,695
498
NC
RPG said:
Hey, I know that all this horst link bs is marketing hype derived by specialized. I was just taken back by the shock of the change. I've owned 3 turners, 2 of which were single pivots. I just would like to know if they abandoned the link due to license fees. For my application, trail bike, pivot placement doesn't matter.
Then why did you deride it with your comment about turning Kona and how you were disappointed?
 

rpk1988

90210
Dec 6, 2004
2,791
0
Maryland
Jm_ said:
Yep, increased brake jack, and poorer pedaling characteristics. Low pivot single pivot bikes rely more on platforms to pedal better. Even ridden a concentric pivot? LOL... Increased brake squat and stiffening is going to happen as a result of caliper rotation, which will exist on the "new" turners.

I have an "old" turner :D
Sweet Turner, but your car has a flat tire. You should restore that beast back there. :D
 

vitox

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
2,939
1
Santiago du Chili
ouch!!!!
how i pity the person who had to write that, plus i think it wasnt necessary to get into that detail of the 180º degree turn their "suspension developement" has taken.

"Over the years our Horst links have been moved closer to the axle in order to reduce the noise of the derailleur hitting the frame on rough ground. As the pivot gets closer to the rear axle" for instance, sounds like "all our suspension technology wasnt worth more than a bit of noise from the rear derailleur.
 

vitox

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
2,939
1
Santiago du Chili
chillindrdude said:
hurray for increased brake jack

i cant quite decide if to interpret it as "sorry we were actually misleading people all these years with our previous marketing"

or "during all these years we believed what specialized said, now we have decided to trust another company, just because"

or mose likely i guess "we will be doing a fiancial move and change to a different suspension system, our clients already know that our forte is not suspension design but frame execution, customer service and durability, and stay with us"
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
966
14
cali
Rik said:
I cringed when I read that.
yeah i think we all cringed reading that.

FWIW, this thread on mtbr suggests that part of the reason is getting away from the licensing hassles of horst link/ellsworth.
 

Discostu

Monkey
Nov 15, 2003
524
0
So essentially Turner's angle for their 2006 bikes is "we swear it hasn't gotten any worse". So much for progress.

I hope everyone who is expecting price drops won't be dissapointed...
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,349
2,537
AK
Discostu said:
So essentially Turner's angle for their 2006 bikes is "we swear it hasn't gotten any worse". So much for progress.

I hope everyone who is expecting price drops won't be dissapointed...
Yeah, this part really rubs me the wrong way. Turner seems to be very vocal about "oh, it rides the same" or "we can't tell the difference in a blind test". That's all fine and dandy, but we don't care about what is "the same", we want progress, something better. If it's not better, don't waste my time. Whether it was true or not, Turner rode on the "specialized/horst link" wave, and now they aren't going to just "undo" all of that brainwashing all of a sudden.
 

Sherpa

Basking in fail.
Jan 28, 2004
2,240
0
Arkansaw
Grizzle said:
Maybe the bikes will cost less now due to not having to pay lisence fees?
Nope, Casey (recently departed from Turner as well) said prices will stay the same.
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
10,349
2,537
AK
Turner said (in another article) that he was having a hard time competing against other "botique" manufacturers that were getting their frames made overseas, such as Yeti, and now Titus, amongst others. I'd say this is a reason why prices haven't/won't go down.
 

BillT

Monkey
I think Turner is going to find it a bit difficult to change the flavor of their kool-aid.

I am looking to replace my Bullit with something new around Feb/Mar of next year so I hope I'll be able to source an obsolete 6 Pack, if not, I'll look elsewhere.
 

Acadian

Born Again Newbie
Sep 5, 2001
716
2
Blah Blah and Blah
I love this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=132355

I read that article last week - and that is the first thing I popped into my mind when i heard about all this...

I was out riding all day yesterday, so I had to catch up on those thread this morning. Some make it sound like it's the end of the world..there are OTHER bikes out there other than Turner. If you are a die hard Turner cult member, then accept the changes, if not, MOVE ON.

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my 5-spot and glad I have one of the original’s…but there are other great trail bikes out there - I won't comment on which ones since it's a personal thing and I got my preference...but by reading some of the threads on MTBR its like Rita just demolished their world...
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,695
498
NC
Jm_ said:
Yeah, this part really rubs me the wrong way. Turner seems to be very vocal about "oh, it rides the same" or "we can't tell the difference in a blind test". That's all fine and dandy, but we don't care about what is "the same", we want progress, something better. If it's not better, don't waste my time. Whether it was true or not, Turner rode on the "specialized/horst link" wave, and now they aren't going to just "undo" all of that brainwashing all of a sudden.
Uh, since when has Turner done something better?

They make great bikes, but it's the same old bike over and over and over again. Tweaks to the frame, and the same suspension. They haven't done something significantly different in years.

Turner is making a change to their frame that will have very little effect on the way the thing actually rides. Other than that, it's business as usual - and if you've been doing business with Turner, I hope you haven't been expecting revolutionary designs. They stick with tried-and-true designs and execute them well.

Anyone who says "this sucks" or "I'm disappointed" just doesn't understand how similar a Horst link is to a non-Horst link. In a back to back blind test of two of the same bikes, one with a Horst link and one without, I'll bet 98% of the people riding won't be able to tell the difference.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
21,695
498
NC
Oh, I do agree, though, that they're eating their own words with this change.

"Horst is the best!"

"Wait, wait. Sorry, upon closer examination..."
 

Sherpa

Basking in fail.
Jan 28, 2004
2,240
0
Arkansaw
Acadian said:
I love this thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=132355

I read that article last week - and that is the first thing I popped into my mind when i heard about all this...

I was out riding all day yesterday, so I had to catch up on those thread this morning. Some make it sound like it's the end of the world..there are OTHER bikes out there other than Turner. If you are a die hard Turner cult member, then accept the changes, if not, MOVE ON.

Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my 5-spot and glad I have one of the original’s…but there are other great trail bikes out there - I won't comment on which ones since it's a personal thing and I got my preference...but by reading some of the threads on MTBR its like Rita just demolished their world...

Its f'in funny isn't it?