[Udi]

I try and avoid running them if possible for weight and faff reasons

No way, you were jerking your dick off for soo long about "all the extra damping and traction man"
This is like the increased-offset lowers you raved about for years then suddenly hated when they weren't cool anymore.
Prepping for a pinkbike writer position?

I'm with Flip and old man JBP on this one, I have too many other interests other than bikes to mess around with inserts. I'm all for light bikes and traction, but the amount of failures / messing around I see from people with tubeless / inserts / insufficient casings is enough that I can't be bothered. Then again I still run tubes, still ride a DH bike, and don't like climbing... I'll let myself out.

I still really like the newer super gravity casings (~1200g in 27.5 magic) and purple compound though.

 

[buckoW]

I still ride one in the back in the middle of the bike park season. I meant that I try and ride without them in the off-season loamy stuff where I don’t need them as much.

The be clear, I am still « jerking your dick off for soo long about "all the extra damping and traction man" ». I don’t need them for Bex for example. For Whistler, Chatel and Morgins, I 100% like them.

You still never tried them?

 

[Udi]

I'll try them when they glue it the outside of a tube, and when you send me my carbon gambler frame so I can cop the extra 500g.

There's value to me in a bike that's preferably easy to maintain, but ideally doesn't need maintaining at all. MTB tyre inflation technology is still in its infancy and has a long way to go. Stuffing liquid latex goo and overpriced heavy foam in a tyre is a messy and incredibly low-level solution to this problem, and if that's a solution I don't actually need, I'd rather let the plebs ride it out and buy a product further along the evolution cycle.

I actually do highly respect the reason you (and mtg) use them, but on the flipside I've watched people messing around with this stuff - and even watching them is a FAR better investment of my time than actually using it. If you remember when you were first wanking on about it, the reason I said "no thanks" is the exact reason you just gave for not using them.

 

[englertracing]

No way, you were jerking your dick off for soo long about "all the extra damping and traction man"
This is like the increased-offset lowers you raved about for years then suddenly hated when they weren't cool anymore.
Prepping for a pinkbike writer position?

I'm with Flip and old man JBP on this one, I have too many other interests other than bikes to mess around with inserts. I'm all for light bikes and traction, but the amount of failures / messing around I see from people with tubeless / inserts / insufficient casings is enough that I can't be bothered. Then again I still run tubes, still ride a DH bike, and don't like climbing... I'll let myself out.

I still really like the newer super gravity casings (~1200g in 27.5 magic) and purple compound though.

You mean to tell me you have toobs in your tires
Why?

 

[Udi]

I'm lazy.

 

[Floor Tom]

They really aren't that hard to fit and I think that they make tubeless for dh the most reliable setup, messy when it goes wrong but it goes wrong far less. They also make it acceptable to roll down the hill on a flat tyre without so much fear for your rim, I've been stuck up Garbanzo with a flat rear, it was a long slow roll down to the bottom of the hill.

 

[buckoW]

I'll try them when they glue it the outside of a tube, and when you send me my carbon gambler frame so I can cop the extra 500g.

There's value to me in a bike that's preferably easy to maintain, but ideally doesn't need maintaining at all. MTB tyre inflation technology is still in its infancy and has a long way to go. Stuffing liquid latex goo and overpriced heavy foam in a tyre is a messy and incredibly low-level solution to this problem, and if that's a solution I don't actually need, I'd rather let the plebs ride it out and buy a product further along the evolution cycle.

I actually do highly respect the reason you (and mtg) use them, but on the flipside I've watched people messing around with this stuff - and even watching them is a FAR better investment of my time than actually using it. If you remember when you were first wanking on about it, the reason I said "no thanks" is the exact reason you just gave for not using them.

If you can get away with tubes then enjoy it however I can’t so I explore options. I also have 1-2 spare rear wheels in the truck when riding DH.

 

[mtg]

I'm lazy.

BS. You make spreadsheets comparing the hydraulics of various brake combinations and re-shim dampers.

But, if you just don't want to try tubeless with sealant, that's fair. If you know what you're doing, most of the time it's not messy. But it certainly can be, and when it happens, it's pretty terrible.
I just find it odd the lengths you go to for refining the coil and oil suspension components, but won't put any effort towards something with actual performance advantages in the tire. Not that I care, unless you try to make me run tubes, it just seems odd.

 

[toodles]

But, if you just don't want to try tubeless with sealant, that's fair. If you know what you're doing, most of the time it's not messy. But it certainly can be, and when it happens, it's pretty terrible.

Yep. 100%. It can and will be a disaster the first few times you fuck around with tubeless. But honestly it sucks so much less than changing tubes and widens the range of acceptable pressures and line choices.

 

[Udi]

@mtg was mostly just trying to wind Ben up, like I already said, I respect and believe your reasoning.
Plus this avatar is my license to be an asshole so I'm milking it!

Your questioning me is only logical though so I'll answer:
There's one significant difference between the things you've talked about me optimising, and the topic of the thread: Great brakes and coil suspension mean you get far more consistent performance between service intervals. In the former case you also get far longer service intervals, and while maybe not by-the-book, in the latter case you get that too - since air suspension starts to feel like dick long before the actual interval in my experience. With coil I've had to keep rough date logs of servicing since there's very little performance deterioration as a reminder.

Yes they're performance advantages, but they're bigger advantages when it comes to the bike feeling the same every day I decide to bother riding it, including feeling the same at the end of a lift riding holiday as it did on the first day. Try this with an air sprung bike, or a bike with any "other" brake - it's impossible.

I can't remember the last time I messed with suspension but it was easily over 3-4 years ago, and the brake thread was a last ditch effort at solving the single problem I still had with bikes. Check the thread start date, I was done with it the day I got the DRTs, and honestly have found bike tech pretty boring since I finished solving my own problems. I like riding bikes, I don't like wrenching on bikes.

The goo is vastly different: it only adds any valid performance benefit when coupled with the foam, but the goo alone adds way more hassle to a whole bunch of tasks, from initial setup mess, to what you do when you need fresh rubber, to what you do if you put a hole in the casing. It also means if I find other things to do for a few months then decide to go for a ride, I can't, because it's deflated and the goo dried up.

Every change I've made has made it significantly easier to be a lazy wrench and almost never work on my bike. This change does the opposite. I respect what it does for you and 100% agree it's a performance advantage. It is however not even remotely a perfect solution, accepting it as such just guarantees no future improvement.

Also from memory I beat Floor Tom at the only DH race we've done together (with -gasp- tubes), which means I win and mtg needs to run tubes. I demand it.

 

[Udi]

The truth is, if I had to ride with @buckoW regularly I would most definitely run cushcore, goo, the stickiest rubber I could get my hands on (though I already do that), and probably steal one of his 29er carbon gamblers + hacksaw some load-spreading slots in his own one. If you need to keep up pace with great riders you DO need every performance advantage you can get, even purely for safety reasons. But if you don't need to keep up or don't care (I've been training for the latter), then meh, it's just hassle and mess to me.

Yep. 100%. It can and will be a disaster the first few times you fuck around with tubeless. But honestly it sucks so much less than changing tubes and widens the range of acceptable pressures and line choices.

I've watched @toodles spend a day nursing a slow leak (literally the last time I rode with him, which was a while ago), messing around with his tubeless trying to get it to seal while another rider did the same. It's always the same story "oh, this usually never happens", but somehow it actually DOES happen on every single ride to someone with tubeless, often even a decent wrencher.

His "line choices" also used to be awesome when he owned a DH bike, I used to copy them, now they suck since all he does is ride uphill. I don't even remember him getting many flats with tubes (super neat rider), just me stealing his tubes when I did since I'm a hack. The entire story is made up!

 

[HardtailHack]

There's value to me in a bike that's preferably easy to maintain, but ideally doesn't need maintaining at all.

On one of my last rides my battery powered gears went stupid and there was no getting them to work with the remote, so I figure I'll use my phone to shift in to an easy gear and run SS. As it uses BLE to transmit signal to the shifter my phone had to be able to get a ping from a satellite before I could change gears, as I was in dense bush I had no signal and no GPS so my redundancy was useless.
I walked the bike a lot and thought about how easy it was to maintain before going full retard on it.
Simple is good!

I was wondering you could have something like a piece of elastomer say 3" wide that just wedged against the sidewalls/bead so it forms an arch?
It would have to have some holes to allow sealant(for the normal people) to flow through, so it would sort of act like an old THE Eliminator rim but staying more pliable.
Probably a dumb idea that would just add weight and crack rims but every second MTB company seems to be churning out their own version of a pool noodle so someone has to have a go at something different.

New rim from T.H.E. - Pinkbike

Toby Henderson believes that pinch flats can be a thing of the past with the introduction of the THE Eliminator rim.The new rim's special feature is a raised PVC center section that protects from pinch flats, caused by the tire compressing into the edge of the sidewall, thus pinching the tube...

www.pinkbike.com

Or-

 

[iRider]

I was wondering you could have something like a piece of elastomer say 3" wide that just wedged against the sidewalls/bead so it forms an arch?
It would have to have some holes to allow sealant(for the normal people) to flow through, so it would sort of act like an old THE Eliminator rim but staying more pliable.
Probably a dumb idea that would just add weight and crack rims but every second MTB company seems to be churning out their own version of a pool noodle so someone has to have a go at something different.
View attachment 139997

New rim from T.H.E. - Pinkbike

Toby Henderson believes that pinch flats can be a thing of the past with the introduction of the THE Eliminator rim.The new rim's special feature is a raised PVC center section that protects from pinch flats, caused by the tire compressing into the edge of the sidewall, thus pinching the tube...

www.pinkbike.com

Panaracer made something like that back in the day to be used with tubes. The rims were called DH shield and XC shield and had an elastomer thing in the rim. Too old school parts, so my Google Fu doesn't result in any images. A friend ran the DH shield rims with Panaracer DH Magic tires and had less flats compared to us others who were on IRC Missile tires.

 

[dovbush66]

Tubes are perfect if your DH riding is in purgatory between being seasonal and year round. My bike alternates between sitting in a shed for months/weeks at a time and being ridden 4 times a week, so going for a cheeky after work spin the last thing I want to worry about is if the horse jizz in the tire hasn't turned into some kind of wank crystal.

For me a glued rim/bead interface would be ideal and coupled with DH tires with bigger run flat inserts in the sidewall so I don't have to worry about dents. taking tires off with an angle grinder is more fun too

 

[jonKranked]

The truth is, if I had to ride with @buckoW regularly I would most definitely run cushcore, goo, the stickiest rubber I could get my hands on (though I already do that), and probably steal one of his 29er carbon gamblers + hacksaw some load-spreading slots in his own one. If you need to keep up pace with great riders you DO need every performance advantage you can get, even purely for safety reasons. But if you don't need to keep up or don't care (I've been training for the latter), then meh, it's just hassle and mess to me.

I've watched @toodles spend a day nursing a slow leak (literally the last time I rode with him, which was a while ago), messing around with his tubeless trying to get it to seal while another rider did the same. It's always the same story "oh, this usually never happens", but somehow it actually DOES happen on every single ride to someone with tubeless, often even a decent wrencher.

His "line choices" also used to be awesome when he owned a DH bike, I used to copy them, now they suck since all he does is ride uphill. I don't even remember him getting many flats with tubes (super neat rider), just me stealing his tubes when I did since I'm a hack. The entire story is made up!

 

[Floor Tom]

Also from memory I beat Floor Tom at the only DH race we've done together (with -gasp- tubes), which means I win and mtg needs to run tubes. I demand it.

I am willing to accept this (lots of people have beaten me at downhill races, and hopefully many more will) but Roots & Rain says we have never raced at the same event. Also, if we had raced I would also have been on tubes at the time, checkmate.

I got my first ride with cush core on the new DH bike, not sure I liked the feeling in the front tbh, maybe I still had the pressure a bit high, I'll keep experimenting.

 

[Udi]

Kenilworth from memory, you had a nice V10, I was probably on a beater sunday, just being an ass though. Yeah figured you were on tubes too. If I had a personal mechanic there's no question I'd have some annoying mix of liquid, foam, and various other gels and substances all retained in my tyres to keep them inflated while adding damping and rim protection. It's just a very non-elegant solution and I hope we get better options to do the same thing in the future.

Totally legit thread btw and in your shoes I'd definitely try just the DH CC in the rear with the XC CC in the front, or none in the front. The right mix of casing durability and insert/tube/whatever is different for everyone due to everything from rider mass, riding style, to riding terrain - so it really is up to you to experiment and figure it out - but in your shoes I'd definitely be trying the same thing you asked about. Good luck!

My bike alternates between sitting in a shed for months/weeks at a time and being ridden 4 times a week, so going for a cheeky after work spin the last thing I want to worry about is if the horse jizz in the tire hasn't turned into some kind of wank crystal.

This is exactly my scenario too, not saying anyone else should run tubes, but tubeless/sealant would just make me ride less than I already do. I hope more options open up in future to get the best of both worlds.

 

[Westy]

This is how I imagine Udi trying to inflate a tire

 

[Floor Tom]

Na, you have the wrong person I'm afraid, I think we have very briefly met in whistler but I have never raced in Aus. Its all good man, I know you were just messing. Maybe you should come to Queenstown and we can race each other, or we could just measure our dicks and see who is correct

I'll keep going as is and also try out the xc in the front and nothing in the front. I haven't recently but I have the capacity to do quite a bit of downhill on some quite rough tracks. I have also had good luck with tubeless on my trail bike, maybe something to do with being on the lighter side, and would like my dh bike to be tubeless as well.

 

[jstuhlman]

i think udi already has used cheekier language in his 2020 posts than in all of his previous posts combined. i like 2020 udi!

in unrelated news, i ran my front wheel (tubeless, double down, who knows when i last added sealant) into a jagged rock at high speed at an awkward angle today and heard the dreaded "phssssss"...but miracle of miracles, it held perfectly for more rocky beatdown. kinda couldn't believe it.

 

[Udi]

Na, you have the wrong person I'm afraid, I think we have very briefly met in whistler but I have never raced in Aus. Its all good man, I know you were just messing. Maybe you should come to Queenstown and we can race each other, or we could just measure our dicks and see who is correct

Haha sweet, I could have met you in any one of those places! You're a well-travelled man. I'll definitely get owned in the race these days, but I'll take on the measurement challenge for sure:

This is how I imagine Udi trying to inflate a tire

 

[Floor Tom]

Haha sweet, I could have met you in any one of those places! You're a well-travelled man. I'll definitely get owned in the race these days, but I'll take on the measurement challenge for sure:

I think you'd have a pretty good chance at the moment. I am off riding right now with sciatic nerve pain, lots of physio and I might be able to race nationals this weekend though.

 

[toodles]

His "line choices" also used to be awesome when he owned a DH bike, I used to copy them, now they suck since all he does is ride uphill.

I've got a sweet line at Toohey past some metal bollards you gotta try. Works mint.

 

[FlipSide]

Sorry to revive this thread after 8 months....

I just want to say I installed CushCore inserts on my bike yesterday evening. I was mentally prepared for hours of cursing and hating my life. Honestly, the hardest part is to stretch and install the CC insert on the rim. Once there, I'd even say the tightly fitting insert helps keeping the bead in the center channel and installing the tire is super easy.

However, I'd point out that I use Stan's tubeless tape, which is quite slippery, and I think it probably helps to get an easy install. For somebody using the Gorilla Tape garbage as tubeless tape, which is thicker and not as slippery, I could see the install to be more difficult.

I can't comment yet on the trail feel and the added weight. I chose to try the insert because I hate flat tires and I'm fed up of running high tire pressures in order to avoid flats. A recent big crash (and injury) that could have potentially been avoided by lower tire pressure convinced me to try these inserts. The idea of dropping in rock gardens without thinking too much about where I land seems interesting as well.

I'll see how I like it. Also, I'm already a slow climber and I generally ride alone. I don't think anybody will notice if I climb even slower from now on.

 

[Westy]

Sorry to revive this thread after 8 months....

I just want to say I installed CushCore inserts on my bike yesterday evening. I was mentally prepared for hours of cursing and hating my life. Honestly, the hardest part is to stretch and install the CC insert on the rim. Once there, I'd even say the tightly fitting insert helps keeping the bead in the center channel and installing the tire is super easy.

However, I'd point out that I use Stan's tubeless tape, which is quite slippery, and I think it probably helps to get an easy install. For somebody using the Gorilla Tape garbage as tubeless tape, which is thicker and not as slippery, I could see the install to be more difficult.

I can't comment yet on the trail feel and the added weight. I chose to try the insert because I hate flat tires and I'm fed up of running high tire pressures in order to avoid flats. A recent big crash (and injury) that could have potentially been avoided by lower tire pressure convinced me to try these inserts. The idea of dropping in rock gardens without thinking too much about where I land seems interesting as well.

I'll see how I like it. Also, I'm already a slow climber and I generally ride alone. I don't think anybody will notice if I climb even slower from now on.

My biggest frustration with cushcore is it's tendency to rub the tubeless tape and cause leaks into the rim. I have gone so far as to suff the rim with sandpaper, clean with alcohol, heat the rim, apply tape, install tube at high pressure for a few days. Things seem to be fine but after a couple rides it starts leaking through the rim. I pull the tire apart and see the edge of the tape pushed to the side.

 

[Jm_]

My biggest frustration with cushcore is it's tendency to rub the tubeless tape and cause leaks into the rim. I have gone so far as to suff the rim with sandpaper, clean with alcohol, heat the rim, apply tape, install tube at high pressure for a few days. Things seem to be fine but after a couple rides it starts leaking through the rim. I pull the tire apart and see the edge of the tape pushed to the side.

Would the bontrager strips help? I had a rim that I just couldn't get tape to stick to, it'd leak despite 6-7 tapings. The Bonty rim strip is tits.

 

[kidwoo]

who bumped this shit?

I felt better having not previously read this thread while I was skiing in january. Reading bullshit diatribes from someone using tubes in dh tires on a mountainbike in 2020 feels dirtier than having the rona.

And before some dipshit starts flapping his gums I at least rode a bunch of 27.5 and 29ers long before I started talking shit about 29ers.

 

[Rhubarb]

Fabian Bare talks about advantages/benefits of tire casings and inserts during a Podcast interview on Downtime. Seems it depends on what you need and what you looking for e.g. protection, damping, support. This topic is part of a bigger discussion but a good episode.

 

[Cerberus75]

My biggest frustration with cushcore is it's tendency to rub the tubeless tape and cause leaks into the rim. I have gone so far as to suff the rim with sandpaper, clean with alcohol, heat the rim, apply tape, install tube at high pressure for a few days. Things seem to be fine but after a couple rides it starts leaking through the rim. I pull the tire apart and see the edge of the tape pushed to the side.

I had this problem as well. So I tried one tight strip of gorilla tape down the center. Leaving a few mm on either side. Instead of all the way to the bead seat. Seamed to solve the problem. Or use 2 layers of slick tape.

 

[buckoW]

I haven’t had that issue with DT Swiss tubeless tape.

 

[rideit]

I have had absolutely horrible luck with DT Swiss tape not adhering to itself or the rim.
I gave up...

 

[englertracing]

Would the bontrager strips help? I had a rim that I just couldn't get tape to stick to, it'd leak despite 6-7 tapings. The Bonty rim strip is tits.

I had to Google those.
So bontrager says...
For bontrager rims only, I mean of course they would...
But.
I'm assuming people use them on other rims right?

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

FWIW never had this issue with i9s or their stock tape.

 

[buckoW]

I have had absolutely horrible luck with DT Swiss tape not adhering to itself or the rim.
I gave up...

Hmmm, that’s part of my favorite setup. DT rims and I stretch it on tight and use Schwalbe milk on Maxxis or Schwalbe tires. I have watched my brother and friends struggle with it at my house though. I stretch it or put it on firmly and get good result. The widest tape possible for the rim too. What do you use?

 

[rideit]

Well, I prep the rim with either alcohol or acetone, and I just can’t seem to get it to adhere.

 

[StiHacka]

Well, I prep the rim with either alcohol or acetone, and I just can’t seem to get it to adhere.

Crabon or alum?

 

[Jm_]

I had to Google those.
So bontrager says...
For bontrager rims only, I mean of course they would...
But.
I'm assuming people use them on other rims right?

They make them in all kinds of widths. The guy at the shop measured them with a caliper and in my I25 nextie I am using one that is 24.83. It's brilliant, no tape, perfect seal. It's not guaranteed to work, because it may not fit the profile well enough, but it's cheap to try, like 6.99 or something.

 

[rideit]

Crabon or alum?

The crab variety

 

[ptd]

Would the bontrager strips help? I had a rim that I just couldn't get tape to stick to, it'd leak despite 6-7 tapings. The Bonty rim strip is tits.

They make them in all kinds of widths. The guy at the shop measured them with a caliper and in my I25 nextie I am using one that is 24.83. It's brilliant, no tape, perfect seal. It's not guaranteed to work, because it may not fit the profile well enough, but it's cheap to try, like 6.99 or something.

Intriguing. Know which one measures like that, they advertise a 22.5 and 30?

I'd consider one for a 25mm ex471.
With stans tape a mystery leak starts after a while with cushcore, seems to be the valve seal, was going to try new peatys valve to experiment.
Had gorilla move and stans makes install easier for me.

 

[jonKranked]

Intriguing. Know which one measures like that, they advertise a 22.5 and 30?

I'd consider one for a 25mm ex471.
With stans tape a mystery leak starts after a while with cushcore, seems to be the valve seal, was going to try new peatys valve to experiment.
Had gorilla move and stans makes install easier for me.

to address valve stem leaks i cut a small square of an old inner tube, poke a hole in the center and push the valve stem all the way through.