[DRB]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/12/21/sudan.darfur.dead/index.html

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, speaking at his year-end news conference on Tuesday, described the situation in Darfur as "deteriorating" and called on the U.N. Security Council to take action.

"Ultimately, the Security Council must assume its responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security," he said.

The Security Council has considered but not imposed targeted sanctions on Sudanese government officials. One U.N. official also said "no-fly zones" over Darfur are needed to stop the attacks on civilians.

Several hours after Annan spoke, the Security Council said it is "actively monitoring" the situation and considering its options.

 

[valve bouncer]

I for one advocate doing nothing until the total reaches at least 100,000.

 

[Silver]

Let the neo-cons handle it. They like to make a lot of noise about how the UN doesn't matter anymore...

 

[RhinofromWA]

Let the neo-cons handle it. They like to make a lot of noise about how the UN doesn't matter anymore...

Wake up and smell the UN for what it is.....

Looks like they are doing a fat lot of good now.

"considering sanctions" Yeah you go create that international security.

More power to you UN.....you know what you are doing. (sarcasm) Do something and become the world punching bag.....

 

[Silver]

The UN is....possibly the only organization that's able to do something in a place like Darfur where it doesn't look like the US can cash in?

Is it a flawed organization? Sure...but, like I said, let the neo-cons handle this. They want to be an empire, now's a good time to start.

Or, we can do nothing, and bitch about how useless the UN is. That might save some lives...

 

[fluff]

Wake up and smell the UN for what it is.....

Looks like they are doing a fat lot of good now.

"considering sanctions" Yeah you go create that international security.

More power to you UN.....you know what you are doing. (sarcasm) Do something and become the world punching bag.....

Your alternatives?

 

[DRB]

Your alternatives?

Do nothing. Let them kill each other all they want. Apparently they want to so let them. Think of the millions of dollars of aid that could be diverted to people who aren't killing each other. Money won't be as spread out. HIV/AIDS certainly will quit being an issue in one place in Africa. Shoot how long can they keep up the 10000 a month killing spree? Another 12 months or so..... Well either they are going to get too hungry to fight, run out of ammo (killing with machetes just isn't as efficient but it would make it safer for "peacekeepers), or just simply run out of victims.

But that's not really an alternative is it? Its actually what's happening now. Well except for the part about diverting aid. That aid is just being dumped into a big black hole feeding and providing medical treatment to people that are going to be killed anyway in the next couple of months. But even that is starting to stop as aid organizations are simply finding it too dangerous to operate there anymore because they aren't providing any protection. (that's a pretty smart way to get them to stop feeding folks)

The fact of the matter is that the UN had (and I emphasize HAD) the opportunity to really stick it to the US and Bush by doing something. But they didn't. Now they just sit there looking as ineffective as ever proving Bush and the neo-cons right.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Your alternatives?

The UN look elsewhere if they want to actually do something. I think the US should quite being there "muscle" man power.

But the UN is flat out in denile if they think they are what they used to be (or originally aspired to be)

I am asking the UN to do "something" instead of impose empty sanctions that they will allow themselves to skirt around if it benefits them. Or else stop claim they are the end all way to peace....

Anything I cook up as an alternative has as good of a chance of working as there back door sanctions.

 

[RhinofromWA]

The UN is....possibly the only organization that's able to do something in a place like Darfur where it doesn't look like the US can cash in?

Is it a flawed organization? Sure...but, like I said, let the neo-cons handle this. They want to be an empire, now's a good time to start.

Or, we can do nothing, and bitch about how useless the UN is. That might save some lives...

I have yet to seem tham "handle it"

It isn't like the UN hasn't profited in their own dealings neaky:

I say let the high and mighty UN handle it with little support from us.....but they won't...because they can't....all they can do is impose forceless sanctions and wait and hope people come around.

 

[Silver]

Yes, they haven't done anything.

Neither has the selfless, God fearing United States of America.

Of course, I haven't heard Kofi Annan speak about how God wants freedom to be his gift to everyone lately.

Merry Christmas (Unless you're a black person in Africa...but then if God didn't want you to be miserable, he would have made sure you were born an American.)

 

[Westy]

I for one say we let them kill each other until they discover oil or become a strategic location in international politics.

 

[fluff]

The UN look elsewhere if they want to actually do something. I think the US should quite being there "muscle" man power.

But the UN is flat out in denile if they think they are what they used to be (or originally aspired to be)

I am asking the UN to do "something" instead of impose empty sanctions that they will allow themselves to skirt around if it benefits them. Or else stop claim they are the end all way to peace....

Anything I cook up as an alternative has as good of a chance of working as there back door sanctions.

In case you missed it, the USA (and the UK too) is a permanent veto-wielding member of the security council, the very same body that Kofi Annan is appealing to in order to get something done.

The UN is only as great as the sum of its parts, it does not exist as some kind of abstract organization with power except that wielded by its member states.

All this bitching about the UN is fine, except the UN is driven by its members, if they don't want to do anything the UN cannot do anything itself. Ergo...

 

[RhinofromWA]

All this bitching about the UN is fine, except the UN is driven by its members, if they don't want to do anything the UN cannot do anything itself. Ergo...

Ergo...nothing gets done. neaky:

It is a perfect system.

 

[DRB]

Do nothing. Let them kill each other all they want. Apparently they want to so let them. Think of the millions of dollars of aid that could be diverted to people who aren't killing each other. Money won't be as spread out. HIV/AIDS certainly will quit being an issue in one place in Africa. Shoot how long can they keep up the 10000 a month killing spree? Another 12 months or so..... Well either they are going to get too hungry to fight, run out of ammo (killing with machetes just isn't as efficient but it would make it safer for "peacekeepers), or just simply run out of victims.

But that's not really an alternative is it? Its actually what's happening now. Well except for the part about diverting aid. That aid is just being dumped into a big black hole feeding and providing medical treatment to people that are going to be killed anyway in the next couple of months. But even that is starting to stop as aid organizations are simply finding it too dangerous to operate there anymore because they aren't providing any protection. (that's a pretty smart way to get them to stop feeding folks)

The fact of the matter is that the UN had (and I emphasize HAD) the opportunity to really stick it to the US and Bush by doing something. But they didn't. Now they just sit there looking as ineffective as ever proving Bush and the neo-cons right.

The UN continues to implement my plan. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6764676/

The U.N. World Food Program suspended food convoys to the Darfur region in western Sudan after rebel forces attacked the market town of Ghubaysh and the government retaliated, U.N. humanitarian officials said......

The real scary thing is that folks are now focused on a different humanitarian crisis, so this is going straight to the back burner.

Yes, they haven't done anything.

Neither has the selfless, God fearing United States of America.

Because the US has about zero credibility to deal with this situation. Even Powell's claims that it is genocide are laughed off and claimed to have made the situation worse. SO instead of someone stepping up and taking leadership in the matter, they all seem to be content to sit around and watch the US take more hits for action or inaction in the matter while doing SQUAT. Even your own statements support exactly what I am saying. Seems like a pretty high price to make a point that everyone already knows.

 

[N8 v2.0]

..is it genocide yet?

 

[DRB]

..is it genocide yet?

According to Doctors without Borders it isn't.

Since Médecins Sans Frontières started working in Darfur in December 2003, teams have not witnessed the intention to kill all individuals of a particular group. We have information about massacres, but never any attempt to eliminate all the members of a specific group." In July 2004, Dr Bradol stated that the use of the term genocide was inappropriate: "Our teams have not seen evidence of the deliberate intention to kill people of a specific group. We have received reports of massacres, but not of attempts to specifically eliminate all the members of a group".

Sorta like the Korean Police Conflict.

 

[N8 v2.0]

According to Doctors without Borders it isn't.



Sorta like the Korean Police Conflict.

So what would it be classifed as then?

A killing spree?

Civil unrest..?

 

[DRB]

So what would it be classifed as then?

A killing spree?

Civil unrest..?

a mass repression campaign against civilians is the term used by MSF President Dr Jean-Hervé Bradol.

 

[valve bouncer]

Semantics aside I'd listen to what MSF said before anyone. First in, last out. Best aid group going around imho.

 

[DRB]

Semantics aside I'd listen to what MSF said before anyone. First in, last out. Best aid group going around imho.

Well they can't seem to make up their mind. They first railed against the US for "inflaming" the situation that it wasn't genocide. But then months after they make a big noise about how the US was making too much of the situation and making it worse. MSF has always been critical of the US and in many cases deservedly so but recently it just knee jerks to the opposite side until its simply comical. They come out with the following report in November.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/2004/sudan_11-01-2004.shtml

Its long but in essence mirrors what was being said in September by the US. The following though is from the conclusions.

The international community has pledged to help the victims of this crisis. So far it has not provided adequate aid and assistance, nor has the Government of Sudan responded to the needs of the people in any meaningful manner. More importantly, neither the international community nor the Government of Sudan have taken effective measures to ensure the cessation of violence against civilians.

You can call it tiddlywinks for all I care, but thousands upon thousands are being killed. Again I guess the plan is the more that are killed means the less that need aid.

 

[valve bouncer]

Well they can't seem to make up their mind. They first railed against the US for "inflaming" the situation that it wasn't genocide. But then months after they make a big noise about how the US was making too much of the situation and making it worse. MSF has always been critical of the US and in many cases deservedly so but recently it just knee jerks to the opposite side until its simply comical. They come out with the following report in November.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/2004/sudan_11-01-2004.shtml

Its long but in essence mirrors what was being said in September by the US. The following though is from the conclusions.



You can call it tiddlywinks for all I care, but thousands upon thousands are being killed. Again I guess the plan is the more that are killed means the less that need aid.

I don't think we're disagreeing here DRB. If your point is that we're not doing enough, then yeah, you're damn right we aren't. But I'll bet that MSF has more people on the ground in Darfur than anyone, including a few I'm sure that are reporting back to intelligence agencies both French and American. Look, MSF aren't perfect and they do have an agenda. I think ultimately though they are one of the few aid groups that are worth giving your hard earned dollars too.

Haivng said that I'd appreciate if you could post a few links giving an alternative view of MSF as my understanding is mostly positive though I do concede there may be a few people who see another side.

The link you posted was grim but informative reading.