UC Davis incident revisited
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I respect both sides, but the officers not transporting the detained/arrested and having them sit in a group while letting the crowd get more of an "upper hand" so to speak, is one of the reasons why the officers did what they did.
Is it right, in my eyes no. I don't believe in pepper spray or less than lethal force. I respect that most of the officers are doing their job and if they voice opposition to their commanders and superiors, they could be fired in this bad economy.
I for one think that the whole occupy movement is getting old, but I did fight for this country and for everyone in it for these protests to happen if needed by our citizens.
It is a difficult situation for the officers above as well as the protestors. I am not 100% sure who was in the wrong in this case.
Is it right, in my eyes no. I don't believe in pepper spray or less than lethal force. I respect that most of the officers are doing their job and if they voice opposition to their commanders and superiors, they could be fired in this bad economy.
I for one think that the whole occupy movement is getting old, but I did fight for this country and for everyone in it for these protests to happen if needed by our citizens.
It is a difficult situation for the officers above as well as the protestors. I am not 100% sure who was in the wrong in this case.
I fought and bled for this country too and that includes the right for these "activists" to protest.
The cops did it by the book. Had the mob not surrounded the cops, then less than lethal force would not have been needed. Those that were arrested earlier were arrested on legitimate grounds. Once formally arrested, it is not up to the cops to release them. That decision rests on the judicial system.
The mob trying to "peacefully" force the cops' to release their comrades was just stupid IMHO. But once they encircled the cops and blocked their path of egress, then it is the mob as a whole that became the aggressor.
I don't think any party was 100% wrong or 100% right, I just find it aggravating how the media only focused on the pepper spraying and not the events leading up to it.
The cops did it by the book. Had the mob not surrounded the cops, then less than lethal force would not have been needed. Those that were arrested earlier were arrested on legitimate grounds. Once formally arrested, it is not up to the cops to release them. That decision rests on the judicial system.
The mob trying to "peacefully" force the cops' to release their comrades was just stupid IMHO. But once they encircled the cops and blocked their path of egress, then it is the mob as a whole that became the aggressor.
I don't think any party was 100% wrong or 100% right, I just find it aggravating how the media only focused on the pepper spraying and not the events leading up to it.
After seeing this, I'd definitely say that the officers weren't in the wrong as I had thought before, buuuuuut... I think they could have just walked through them. I doubt any of the protesters would have tried to physically stand up and block the cops from exiting.
Sooo.......then you still think they overreacted? Which is it?
I saw that video earlier today.
They're still douchebags.
Newsflash: 20 year olds are annoying. If you can't accept this fact, WTF are you doing as a campus cop?
There's still no reason whatsoever for blowing those kids in the face with cop grade pepper spray.
But you have to admit that is it hilarious watching that "cop" spray those kids like he was spraying weedbegone in front of his trailer!
No.
I definitely don't have to admit that, because it's not true. Especially watching the leadup, I think they're even more a bunch of douchebags.
Why? Because he's a cop, on duty, and not me after 3 beers
Pardon my joke then.
True story: Sometimes I have to fart. I'm at work. I really think it would be funny. I don't fart. Because I'm at work.Pardon my joke then.
If I had 50 self righteous college kids around me with video cameras. Definitely no fart. No question.
The PD needs to spend less on donuts, for one. ****ing a, there were TONS of cops there. Just not that many of them.
Anyhoo, although the pepper spray was unarguably within legal parameters for use of force, and the cops showed a lot more restraint than I'd ever envisioned based on the short clips, they could've been smarter. Without a pressing need to move in a hurry (not that they didn't wait a long time, but still, they're on the clock and doing their jobs and there presumably wasn't another emergency elsewhere), the HCIC would have been better served to use a cell phone, call the administration, and ask them to come down and make a public decision, or at least put the matter on record that the admin knew the situation and didn't protest the proposed action.
Then the admin would either have hurried down to the scene and talked the kids down (or failed to talk them down, and given the police the public go-ahead), or at least lost their plausible deniability and ability to feign outrage.
Anyhoo, although the pepper spray was unarguably within legal parameters for use of force, and the cops showed a lot more restraint than I'd ever envisioned based on the short clips, they could've been smarter. Without a pressing need to move in a hurry (not that they didn't wait a long time, but still, they're on the clock and doing their jobs and there presumably wasn't another emergency elsewhere), the HCIC would have been better served to use a cell phone, call the administration, and ask them to come down and make a public decision, or at least put the matter on record that the admin knew the situation and didn't protest the proposed action.
Then the admin would either have hurried down to the scene and talked the kids down (or failed to talk them down, and given the police the public go-ahead), or at least lost their plausible deniability and ability to feign outrage.
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I think they acted well within the law, but could have done better. Although, they probably have a strict written code that they have to follow and had they decided to just walk through the protestors and something had gone wrong some of them probably would have been out of a job.
But let's be honest, if someone had mowed down a row of Tea Partiers the majority of monkies would be cheering about how they deserved it (nevermind that the Tea Partiers and Occupiers are protesting the same basic principles).
When I think of misuse of force by the police, I actually think about Iman Morales before I consider Oscar Grant.
Morales was naked, standing on top of a rollup gate about 14 feet off the ground, swinging a 4 foot florescent bulb. Instead of waiting until he come down willingly or until they could grab him without harm, the NYPD Emergency Service Unit, which is SWAT as well as Hostage Negotiation, decides to taser him.
The cops on the scene placed no mats or nets below, so after he was tased, he hit the sidewalk on his head and died.
The picture says it all:
Why do I bring this up? Ok, so the cops were blocked off and under some legalese they were "threatened", making it justified to pepper spray students.
Was it the right thing to do? C'mon. So the cops were going nowhere for the time being and the students were yelling. Make more arrests, call in Davis PD for assistance, do something besides "less-than-lethal". Do the right thing.
Footnote: the Brooklyn DA determined the ESU officers did nothing illegal. The commanding lieutenant on the scene killed himself a week late.
Morales was naked, standing on top of a rollup gate about 14 feet off the ground, swinging a 4 foot florescent bulb. Instead of waiting until he come down willingly or until they could grab him without harm, the NYPD Emergency Service Unit, which is SWAT as well as Hostage Negotiation, decides to taser him.
The cops on the scene placed no mats or nets below, so after he was tased, he hit the sidewalk on his head and died.
The picture says it all:
Why do I bring this up? Ok, so the cops were blocked off and under some legalese they were "threatened", making it justified to pepper spray students.
Was it the right thing to do? C'mon. So the cops were going nowhere for the time being and the students were yelling. Make more arrests, call in Davis PD for assistance, do something besides "less-than-lethal". Do the right thing.
Footnote: the Brooklyn DA determined the ESU officers did nothing illegal. The commanding lieutenant on the scene killed himself a week late.
Cops don't need to feel threatened or be threatened to use pepper spray, or any other force. The benchmark is the reasonable nature of the use of force based on facts known to the officers, not how they felt about anything.
MikeD hit it on the head...UCSD Cops should have simply waitde the students out. They would have left sooner or later, getting hungry or tired, clearing a path for the egress of the riot control formation. I lol'ed when you can hear the girl asking "Can you pick me up at 5:15?" This is getting old...and the "mic check" guy? Go back to your trust fund, douchebag.
I wonder exactly when it was that "escalate" became the police's initial response to a situation rather than a last resort? Seems the days when a police officer's best weapon was his voice are long gone.
I was taught early on that I had better respect the PoPo...any ass whipping I took from them I would also get 10-fold when I got home. My old man hated Cops, and I became one. Of course I didnt find this out until much later...
turn the sound up.
The days when a kid responded to a Cops voice are long gone too...
I still blame the police for allowing this situation to get out of control. The number one rule I've heard over and over again is to control the situation, and the police lost control of this situation from the minute that video started rolling. They were vastly outnumbered and trapped by a group of non-violent/passive protesters. Any reinforcements they called in constituted one cop car and a couple guys on the other side of the protesters...
And yet, when faced with either continuing the situation or working to de-escalate it, they chose option 3, to escalate the situation and antagonize the students. A slightly misleading video getting out showing them pepper-spraying students who were doing nothing more than sitting on the ground was actually probably the best case scenario. That could have resulted in a full-scale riot, with the 20 or so cops at a huge disadvantage to the 200+ protesters. Why not go through the arrested students, get names/IDs for them, and tell them that they're free to go but there'll be a bench warrant out for their arrest if they don't turn themselves in at the local police station? Or have the reinforcements start arresting people who are blocking the cops? Or bring someone down from the administration to start negotiating/reasoning with the students? Or hell, just wait them out, they're college students...
And yet, when faced with either continuing the situation or working to de-escalate it, they chose option 3, to escalate the situation and antagonize the students. A slightly misleading video getting out showing them pepper-spraying students who were doing nothing more than sitting on the ground was actually probably the best case scenario. That could have resulted in a full-scale riot, with the 20 or so cops at a huge disadvantage to the 200+ protesters. Why not go through the arrested students, get names/IDs for them, and tell them that they're free to go but there'll be a bench warrant out for their arrest if they don't turn themselves in at the local police station? Or have the reinforcements start arresting people who are blocking the cops? Or bring someone down from the administration to start negotiating/reasoning with the students? Or hell, just wait them out, they're college students...
You should pay more attention here.
No one's ever going to be cheering cops doing that shlt, or running people over.
Do you seriously not think that pepper-spraying individuals sitting on the ground is an escalation of the situation? Honestly?
knowing how cops are these days.....i don't try to provoke cops into a action.....and i don't need to be told multiple times to move along.
but i know how you like to think you are the great white protester of the north......
You do realize that I like to compare/contrast what happened here in WI with what's happening elsewhere around the country right now, right? In WI the cops worked to de-escalate the situation. Protesters were accommodated, people were allowed to sleep in the Capitol building, and it was a 100% peaceful affair. No riots. No broken windows. Barely anyone was arrested, even when the protests grew to over 100,000 people. Police had areas of the Capitol cordoned off, they moved politicians (and their cronies) through old steam tunnels to avoid protesters, and it was pretty much a model for how protesters *and* police should act. Hell, Fox had to splice in footage with
Police in UC Davis and Oakland and in other areas obviously went a more combative approach, and costs (both in terms of dollars and public opinion) are far, far, FAR higher.
and under review, they look at how another officer would have responded given the same situation and the same information. I think the use of force while teh suck, was reasonable. Could they have done better? yes, but what they did was reasonable.
no, it wasn't. the most positive thing you can say about it was that it was legal. but reasonable? no.
I still place the majority of the blame with the administration. I think it was the daily show that pointed out that people camp out illegally for black friday and any new apple product - no one pepper sprays them. the administration is the one who ordered the campers removed, and (sadly) they should know better than to trust the campus police to handle that with any kind of strategy, forethought, or humanity.
If it wasn't reasonable, it wouldn't be legal. That is the definition of what makes the use of force legal.
And what the cops did was entirely reasonable.
And I agree with you and Jon Stewart on the camp-out thing. But no one was pepper sprayed for camping out, and no one camps for days on end in public for an iPod...a night maybe. It's the administration that makes the choice on when to take the action to remove them from the quad for illegal presence, not the cops. Anyhow, people were pepper sprayed to allow the police to continue the lawful performance of their duties.
And not that I love Fox, but come on, people, it's PEPPER SPRAY. Go home, take a shower, it washes off and you can stop crying. It's far less damaging than what the police would need to do with batons and joint-locks to overcome the well-orchestrated human-chain obstacle they presented. That would have resulted in multiple sprains and breaks in fingers, elbows, and shoulders. (edit: not to say the use of pepper spray couldn't be abusive, but this use was 100% in line with the purpose and legitimate use of OC under the law.)
Again, would have been smarter for the police to wait and let the administration take some action, but that frankly just would have made their own lives easier; it's not a matter of the protesters' welfare.
In the end I think we'd have like to have seen the same things. Some beat cops patrolling the camp, saying hi to the kids, ensuring they were safe and not vulnerable in their tents, and let them go home when they've had enough, at least to start. But I don't know...maybe they were doing that for the past 2 months and the admin finally decided it was too much of an eyesore or something. Even then, though, I think the way to stop the encampment would be to cordon off the area and not let anyone return once they've left. Food would run out quickly with the munchie-level these kids must maintain. (Of course, then they could have just started another encampment somewhere else.)
And what the cops did was entirely reasonable.
And I agree with you and Jon Stewart on the camp-out thing. But no one was pepper sprayed for camping out, and no one camps for days on end in public for an iPod...a night maybe. It's the administration that makes the choice on when to take the action to remove them from the quad for illegal presence, not the cops. Anyhow, people were pepper sprayed to allow the police to continue the lawful performance of their duties.
And not that I love Fox, but come on, people, it's PEPPER SPRAY. Go home, take a shower, it washes off and you can stop crying. It's far less damaging than what the police would need to do with batons and joint-locks to overcome the well-orchestrated human-chain obstacle they presented. That would have resulted in multiple sprains and breaks in fingers, elbows, and shoulders. (edit: not to say the use of pepper spray couldn't be abusive, but this use was 100% in line with the purpose and legitimate use of OC under the law.)
Again, would have been smarter for the police to wait and let the administration take some action, but that frankly just would have made their own lives easier; it's not a matter of the protesters' welfare.
In the end I think we'd have like to have seen the same things. Some beat cops patrolling the camp, saying hi to the kids, ensuring they were safe and not vulnerable in their tents, and let them go home when they've had enough, at least to start. But I don't know...maybe they were doing that for the past 2 months and the admin finally decided it was too much of an eyesore or something. Even then, though, I think the way to stop the encampment would be to cordon off the area and not let anyone return once they've left. Food would run out quickly with the munchie-level these kids must maintain. (Of course, then they could have just started another encampment somewhere else.)
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I am assuming that you have never gotten hit head on in the face with military grade pepper spray???
Assume away. But do define "military grade" pepper spray for me, so I know if it's one of the several kinds I've been hit with. Sounds like you know a lot about this stuff in a very technical manner.
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I'd argue that (if legal then reasonable) is the converse of reality. We make laws based on what we believe to be reasonable (if reasonable then legal). The practical application of those laws (see above) may be legal but it isn't necessarily reasonable.
Case in point, I think one can argue that unlimited corporate campaign contributions are not reasonable, even though they are now legal.
We've already established that the police actions were legal. Why use "reasonable" except as a measure of subjective community opinion? If it's the same as "legal" it serves no purpose in our discussion.
Because of Supreme Court case law...kind of hard to disentangle the term when discussing its legal aspects. Just a symptom of discussing it in those terms rather than a subjective community opinion. Carry on and I won't bring it up again unless we're discussing whether it was legal or not.