[$tinkle]

Good point. Pointdexter assumes the Weaver stance, sets the tazer on "please, your actions annoy me" and returns the library to its former calm.

we let 18 y.o.'s w/ no college education purchase & carry lethal weapons, why not a little lightning-in-the-pocket to ward off campus nazis for those who don't want to end up getting stuck in iraq?

 

[dan-o]

Quote from one of the articles. Video pretty much confirms that. Yeah, sounds like he was acting like a total ass - how dare he not want to get accosted and dragged out of a building he was already exiting. The nerve.

I'm guessing (as are you), but it seems reasonable to assume the students response to the ID check warranted security deciding the cops were needed. The screaming that ensued when the cops touched him and 'patriot act/ i know my rights' rant reinforces this concept for me. The fact that he was leaving suggests that he already knew trouble was brewing.

 

[Echo]

Quote from one of the articles. Video pretty much confirms that. Yeah, sounds like he was acting like a total ass - how dare he not want to get accosted and dragged out of a building he was already exiting. The nerve.

You are still discounting the fact that he did enough to get someone to call the cops. When the cops get there, they aren't going to just let him walk away - they have to fill out an incident report. Which means they need to talk to him, and talk to the person who called them, and find out what the hell is going on.

 

[Echo]

The fact that he was leaving suggests that he already knew trouble was brewing.

EXACTLY.

 

[narlus]

new bike/law enforcement tool for bike officer manimal:

 

[$tinkle]

CAIR (council on american-islamic relations) has called for probe of student tazering

The Council on American-Islamic Relations urged "state and national authorities, including the FBI" to investigate the incident involving the 23-year-old Mostafa Tabatabainejad.

But the American-Islamic relations group says an outside probe's needed to make sure the case's "civil rights aspects" are taken seriously.

yes, they must ask: "what would mohammed do?"

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

No technically, he did. He was a student.

then why didnt he just show his ID? pretty ****ing simple if you ask me......

i'm not saying getting tazed was deserved, but turning this into some sort of martyrdom is pathetic. show your ID, cops leave you alone, pretty simple.

 

[ElTORO]

not to be da grammer nazi, but is u a college studint? the spelin n grammer mad it herd 2 unnersant yer post.

Cocain is a hell of a drug!! :biggrin:

 

[$tinkle]

update from a freshman @ ucla writes: (posted on mm's blog)

I have been a long-time fan of your blog and am presently a freshman at UCLA. Clearly, the recent use of a Tazer by UCPD officers to subdue a student refusing to leave the library has caused quite a stir, and I thought I might provide you with a bit more information on the incident, as well as the zeitgeist of the campus.

First and foremost, I wish to clarify that, regardless of what some might attempt to claim, it is absurd to believe that Mr. Tabatabainejad was targeted based on his race or ethnicity. Random ID card checks are standard procedure in Powell Library after 11 PM, to ensure the safety of students. Furthermore, these checks were performed by Community Service Officers (CSOs), not UCPD officers. CSOs are UCLA students hired by UCPD to aide in security and service activities, and to support UCPD. Thus, Mr. Tabatabainejad was the subject of a very ordinary, very standard ID card check by his own, fellow students. He failed to produce an ID, so the CSOs requested he leave (as they would of anyone without an ID). Of course, the situation deteriorated from there and the chain of events from there is detailed (albeit in a rather biased manner) by the Daily Bruin.

It appear to me that the facts of this case speak for themselves in justifying the UCPD’s actions. In any case, I simply wished to stress that it is wholly fallacious to claim the Mr. Tabatabainejad was the target of racism or some kind of profiling.

The attitude towards the incident on campus is frankly difficult to judge. Clearly, my evaluation of the situation is somewhat biased, simply because I am a conservative Republican, and a large portion of my friends are as well. However, I believe that a substantial minority of students believe that the UCPD acted justly and that Mr. Tabatabainejad was so utterly unreasonable, and frankly dangerous, that the use of a Tazer was fully justified. Many of the students I have spoken to follow this line of reasoning and frankly have similar sentiments, in regards to supporting the UCPD officers.

Regrettably, we have a decided liberal bent here at UCLA, as most colleges nowadays do. This accompanies popular and common anti-authority beliefs which, in some of the more extreme cases, manifests as a bizarre anti-police attitude. Thankfully, these more extremist beliefs are not as commonly held as one might think, and there has not been a violently anti-authority reaction to the incident on campus. Nonetheless, a large portion of students (likely a majority) believes that the officers acted with "unreasonable or disproportionate force," and I have already seen posters and ads for civil rights protests and other associated anti-police nonsense (I'm frankly unsure which civil rights they plan to protest in support of. The right to resist arrest, perhaps?).

In any case, although a majority of students appear on the face of things to support Mr. Tabatabainejad, I do want the word to get out that most of these students are not frothing lunatic anarchists (though we certainly do have a few of those). Moreover, I want you and your readers to know that there is a very good sized minority of students here at UCLA who support the police in these matters and who support the rule of law. Despite the best efforts of a few of our professors, we're not all ultra-liberals here in college.

 

[narlus]

I bet one of the village people would know the answer to this.

maybe if you substitute 'arms' for either 'mouth' or 'hand'...

 

[skinny mike]

update from a freshman @ ucla writes: (posted on mm's blog)

that kid is sucking at the teat of authoritarianism.

 

[$tinkle]

that kid is sucking at the teat of authoritarianism.

you prefer the cock of anarchy?

 

[narlus]

(I'm frankly unsure which civil rights they plan to protest in support of. The right to resist arrest, perhaps?).

maybe the right to not have multi-thousand volt surges put through yr body while you are leaving a library because you forgot yr ID card?

 

[narlus]

you prefer the cock of anarchy?

are you saying that anarchy is a more virile pursuit (ie, the dick) than kowtowing to the man (ie, the tit)?

 

[$tinkle]

are you saying that anarchy is a more virile pursuit (ie, the dick) than kowtowing to the man (ie, the tit)?

women's golf:

nuff said?

 

[$tinkle]

maybe the right to not have multi-thousand volt surges put through yr body while you are leaving a library because you forgot yr ID card?

you'd think ben franklin would've caught that.

 

[manimal]

Ok, but back to the main question: Was this guy resisting to the extent that tasering him was necessary? There seems to be eyewitness accounts that he was already walking out of the library when he was confronted by the police officers.

And then I have to ask: Is going limp in a police officer's arms considered resisting arrest by most police departments?

to your first question: yes. if he was given a lawful command to "stop", ie: conducting investigation as echo hinted at, and he did not stop but kept walking for the door then yes, use of force is authorized. the level of force here is what is under scrutiny here regarding the repeated hits. i'm really not sure what they're point was in saying, "stand up" and then hitting him w/ more juice. the common command is "stay down" and if they get up then that is viewed as a sign of threat/resistance. i'm not defending the officer's actions necessarily, just the fact that the tazer isn't some big/bad electric billy club that leaves people permanently scarred as some would like you to believe.

as far as going limp to resist. yes, it can be considered "passive resistance" but i don't think momentarily incapacitating someone's physological functions would benefit the situation much. as in the common case of the protesting hippy ( <---that's for you westy), pressure points usually do the trick to get someone in handcuffs that doesn't want to voluntarily give you their hands.

 

[manimal]

But aren't you in better shape than the general public?

What about the officer threatening to use the taser on bystanders?

a persons physical ability has nothing to do with recovery time. if someone is so completely out of shape that they can't get up off the ground on a good day, a dose of electricity isn't going to make it any worse.
i personally thought the aftereffects of being tazed were quite relaxing. have you ever shocked yourself by accident? it's freaky when it happens but then you get that warm-fuzzy feeling in your muscles.

 

[RenegadeRick]

and on my 2nd point?

 

[narlus]

women's golf:

nuff said?

where's the other end?

 

[RenegadeRick]

i personally thought the aftereffects of being tazed were quite relaxing. have you ever shocked yourself by accident? it's freaky when it happens but then you get that warm-fuzzy feeling in your muscles.

Excuse me officer, are you suggesting we use electricity to get high?

 

[narlus]

a persons physical ability has nothing to do with recovery time. if someone is so completely out of shape that they can't get up off the ground on a good day, a dose of electricity isn't going to make it any worse.
i personally thought the aftereffects of being tazed were quite relaxing. have you ever shocked yourself by accident? it's freaky when it happens but then you get that warm-fuzzy feeling in your muscles.

you use an electric razor?

 

[manimal]

At the max setting?

Didn't sound like the tazer(s?) was set to tingle.


I had a friend of mine zap me with a stun gun once. The whole left side of my body didn't work too well for more than 15 seconds (he hit me in teh luv handle). A tazer blast is more incapacitating no?

You've used one these I assume. Have you ever zapped someone and not had them be able to move?

this isn't star wars. there is no "setting". it's off and on, pull the trigger and POP go the barbs and then zzzzzzzap. power is controlled by the trigger off and on if needed.

everyone i've dealt with that has been tazed did not get up on their own.....because we immediatly put handcuffs on them, sit them on the curb and wait until EMS arrives to remove the barbs. but i've never had to assist anyone in walking to the curb.

 

[kidwoo]

Read in one of those articles that tazers had intensity settings.....

Thanks for the info. I've never had the opportunity to play with one.


But what do you think of tazing someone IN handcuffs obviously under the control of at least 3 officers........or threatening to taze someone who asks for your badge ID?

 

[$tinkle]

But what do you think of tazing someone IN handcuffs obviously under the control of at least 3 officers........

have you even heard of chuck norris?

 

[binary visions]

You are still discounting the fact that he did enough to get someone to call the cops.

The fact that he was leaving suggests that he already knew trouble was brewing.

Are you guys not paying attention here? The campus security was called because he failed to produce his student ID, and did not immediately evacuate the building. This has been cited by several news sources and there has been absolutely no evidence to suggest he was being rowdy, unruly or anything other than unhappy about being asked to leave simply because he didn't have his ID.

 

[$tinkle]

Are you guys not paying attention here? The campus security was called because he failed to produce his student ID, and did not immediately evacuate the building. This has been cited by several news sources and there has been absolutely no evidence to suggest he was being rowdy, unruly or anything other than unhappy about being asked to leave simply because he didn't have his ID.

so when my daughter goes off to university, i want to know that if she's studying late in the library that unruly types who would stalk her to rape her on campus are kept to a minimum.

ID check is one method.

 

[binary visions]

so when my daughter goes off to university, i want to know that if she's studying late in the library that unruly types who would stalk her to rape her on campus are kept to a minimum.

ID check is one method.

I'm not arguing with the ID check. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have been asked to leave. I'm saying that the reality is that I would protest if I were asked to leave, too. Not violently, just protest and maybe take my time leaving.

If the police showed up and escorted me out, I probably would have reacted indignantly too if I were on my way out, following what I had been asked to do, and one of them grabbed me.

And none of this justified violent action against him, nor would it have justified violent action against me.

 

[kidwoo]

have you even heard of chuck norris?

As a matter of...........OWW!!!


something just kicked my head but there's nobody here

 

[RenegadeRick]

have you even heard of chuck norris?

I didn't know they tazed Chuck Norris at UCLA yesterday.
Did it drain the battery on the first hit and cause the taser to burst into flames?
No wonder the cops were pissed.

 

[$tinkle]

I'm not arguing with the ID check. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't have been asked to leave. I'm saying that the reality is that I would protest if I were asked to leave, too. Not violently, just protest and maybe take my time leaving.

If the police showed up and escorted me out, I probably would have reacted indignantly too if I were on my way out, following what I had been asked to do, and one of them grabbed me.

And none of this justified violent action against him, nor would it have justified violent action against me.

see now, how can you give a reasonable response like this, and yet assume someone can reasonably forget/refuse-to-produce ID? this is why i don't have too big a problem with mustafa gettin juiced.

 

[RenegadeRick]

But what do you think of tazing someone IN handcuffs obviously under the control of at least 3 officers........or threatening to taze someone who asks for your badge ID?

I don't expect manimal is going to answer these questions. The blue wall of silence protects their own.

you can solve this challenge easily, manimal. go ahead and prove me wrong.

 

[robdamanii]

Ok, so after watching the footage of it and listening to the various reports, this is what I get:

Kid is asked for ID as a security measure designed to protect the people in the library from sickos, weirdos and psychos. Kid can't produce ID and is asked to leave. He gives people a hard time and gets the cops called on him. Cops show up, try to interview him, he ignores them, and cops grab his arm. He screams "GET OFF ME GET OFF ME" etc etc, and generally agitates the cops. He gets tazed for being belligerent and giving the cops hell. He screams about "here's your F'in patriot act", pulling the race card. This pisses off the cops so now they are going to afford him no courtesy or leeway at all. They tell him to stand up, he tells them to "F*** OFF" and gets tazed again. He continues to refuse to cooperate, even after warnings of "if you don't cooperate you'll be tazed again". This continues. Then you have a bunch of smart ass kids getting in the cops' faces and telling them that "we want your badge numbers and names, we're reporting you". You have a kid getting in the cop's face and he knows if he gives one kid leeway, everyone will jump in and there will be a hell of a row. Cop warns the kid to get out of his face and let things be.

Don't poke the bear. If you do, you'll get the claws. Sounds justified to me. Just because this kid is screaming "racial profiling" doesn't mean that's the case. He didn't have an ID, he gave people a hard time, he wanted to be a smart ass with the cops and play tough guy, he wouldn't listen to them after the first tazing, and he wants us to feel sorry for him? Nope, sorry kid. You want a cop to leave you alone and be nice to you? You need to say "yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry sir" and suck it up. He HAS power over you, and you NEED to deal with that.

 

[BMXman]

Sorry but I have no sympathy for this guy...he put himself in the situation and then is going to bitch when it doesn't go the way he wanted.....D

 

[BMXman]

Ok, so after watching the footage of it and listening to the various reports, this is what I get:

Kid is asked for ID as a security measure designed to protect the people in the library from sickos, weirdos and psychos. Kid can't produce ID and is asked to leave. He gives people a hard time and gets the cops called on him. Cops show up, try to interview him, he ignores them, and cops grab his arm. He screams "GET OFF ME GET OFF ME" etc etc, and generally agitates the cops. He gets tazed for being belligerent and giving the cops hell. He screams about "here's your F'in patriot act", pulling the race card. This pisses off the cops so now they are going to afford him no courtesy or leeway at all. They tell him to stand up, he tells them to "F*** OFF" and gets tazed again. He continues to refuse to cooperate, even after warnings of "if you don't cooperate you'll be tazed again". This continues. Then you have a bunch of smart ass kids getting in the cops' faces and telling them that "we want your badge numbers and names, we're reporting you". You have a kid getting in the cop's face and he knows if he gives one kid leeway, everyone will jump in and there will be a hell of a row. Cop warns the kid to get out of his face and let things be.

Don't poke the bear. If you do, you'll get the claws. Sounds justified to me. Just because this kid is screaming "racial profiling" doesn't mean that's the case. He didn't have an ID, he gave people a hard time, he wanted to be a smart ass with the cops and play tough guy, he wouldn't listen to them after the first tazing, and he wants us to feel sorry for him? Nope, sorry kid. You want a cop to leave you alone and be nice to you? You need to say "yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry sir" and suck it up. He HAS power over you, and you NEED to deal with that.

that's exactly what I got from it...D

 

[manimal]

I don't expect manimal is going to answer these questions. The blue wall of silence protects their own.

you can solve this challenge easily, manimal. go ahead and prove me wrong.

wow, if you were here in person right now i'd swift-kick you in the junk for that garbage. we may have a comeradery and pride in knowing that we'll take a bullet for one another but i'm not gonna lose my job by lying for someone. we just had a lieutenant get fired for hitting a guy that was already in cuffs. of course, the guy in cuffs had just pulled a gun on and taken the wallet of the lieutenants son....but it was still uncalled for. do you think anyone told the SBI anything but the truth? i hate it for the guy but i don't know anyone here that would risk their job, just to cover up a big screw-up like that.

and yes, once someone is in handcuffs there is USUALLY no reason for further use of force, especially something like a tazer. i've had to do the old common peroneal (charlie horse) trick to get someone into the car that was refusing but other than that, if they're in cuffs then they're pretty well under control.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

Ok, so after watching the footage of it and listening to the various reports, this is what I get:

Kid is asked for ID as a security measure designed to protect the people in the library from sickos, weirdos and psychos. Kid can't produce ID and is asked to leave. He gives people a hard time and gets the cops called on him. Cops show up, try to interview him, he ignores them, and cops grab his arm. He screams "GET OFF ME GET OFF ME" etc etc, and generally agitates the cops. He gets tazed for being belligerent and giving the cops hell. He screams about "here's your F'in patriot act", pulling the race card. This pisses off the cops so now they are going to afford him no courtesy or leeway at all. They tell him to stand up, he tells them to "F*** OFF" and gets tazed again. He continues to refuse to cooperate, even after warnings of "if you don't cooperate you'll be tazed again". This continues. Then you have a bunch of smart ass kids getting in the cops' faces and telling them that "we want your badge numbers and names, we're reporting you". You have a kid getting in the cop's face and he knows if he gives one kid leeway, everyone will jump in and there will be a hell of a row. Cop warns the kid to get out of his face and let things be.

Don't poke the bear. If you do, you'll get the claws. Sounds justified to me. Just because this kid is screaming "racial profiling" doesn't mean that's the case. He didn't have an ID, he gave people a hard time, he wanted to be a smart ass with the cops and play tough guy, he wouldn't listen to them after the first tazing, and he wants us to feel sorry for him? Nope, sorry kid. You want a cop to leave you alone and be nice to you? You need to say "yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry sir" and suck it up. He HAS power over you, and you NEED to deal with that.

\thread

 

[manimal]

You have a kid getting in the cop's face and he knows if he gives one kid leeway, everyone will jump in and there will be a hell of a row. Cop warns the kid to get out of his face and let things be.

i love college kids who've taken a basic criminal law class and think that they know how it's supposed to work and that they know their rights.

 

[RenegadeRick]

wow, if you were here in person right now i'd swift-kick you in the junk for that garbage.

Help, I'm being repressed! Did you just threaten me with violence?

Hey it is nothing personal. You just failed to answer the question on the appropriateness of what was said to that student. You know... "get back or you're gonna get tased too." You still have failed to answer it.

and yes, once someone is in handcuffs there is USUALLY no reason for further use of force, especially something like a tazer. i've had to do the old common peroneal (charlie horse) trick to get someone into the car that was refusing but other than that, if they're in cuffs then they're pretty well under control.

It's good to know that you agree with this was wrong in general, but you are still holding back with your "USUALLY" statement. Obviously it is hard for you (and everyone else) to e-speculate on this matter accurately with the available information.

 

[robdamanii]

i love college kids who've taken a basic criminal law class and think that they know how it's supposed to work and that they know their rights.

I wasn't saying I know the law, I'm just saying it really seems to me like the kid was pushing the cops' buttons, and the bystanders were doing the same. The cop gave them a "friendly reminder" that it was none of their business and was trying to keep a riot from breaking out. Apparently it worked.

If you were just meaning kids in general and not directing at me, my bad, I'm a tool.