[sanjuro]

he was a UCLA student, he had every right to be there. he just didn't want to show his id because he felt he was being racially profiled, which i don't think is too unreasonable in this day and age. i guess you could say "brown is the new black."

So some rules are optional?

 

[JohnE]

For some people...

 

[sanjuro]

Picture from the student protest yesterday. I noticed not too many white faces in the crowd...

 

[JohnE]

I bet they all have id cards in their pockets!

 

[sanjuro]

but will they show them when asked?

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

he was a UCLA student, he had every right to be there. he just didn't want to show his id because he felt he was being racially profiled, which i don't think is too unreasonable in this day and age. i guess you could say "brown is the new black."

well if he assumed he was being racially profiled, the cops might as well assume he's a terrorist too, right?

 

[blue]

did you frothers ever think that the police had reason to arrest him before they even went in based on the testimony of the security guards? the kid was TRESPASSING, an arrestable offense in most jurisdictions. he may have wanted to leave but at that point, when the officers were investigating the validity of the TRESPASSING charge, he was NOT free to leave.

I doubt you'd have an easy time pressing trespassing charges against someone in a public library after 11 PM.

 

[Echo]

I doubt you'd have an easy time pressing trespassing charges against someone in a public library after 11 PM.

As soon as the custodian/owner of the propertys ask you to leave and you don't, you are trespassing.

 

[dan-o]

harbl

 

[manimal]

he was a UCLA student, he had every right to be there. he just didn't want to show his id because he felt he was being racially profiled, which i don't think is too unreasonable in this day and age.

you're forgetting one thing there bright eyes, he had every right to be there IF HE HAD IS ID WITH HIM. and even if he did have his ID and had shown it to security, if there was some reason that they asked him to leave then he must leave. it's the same principal as license checkpoints. if a certain ID is the one thing that allows you to drive or be in a certain place and you don't have it.....then guess what. you are no longer valid! go ahead and rationalize and make it a race issue but in the end, someone has to enforce the rules. rules like "must be in possession of student ID while in library" are there for a reason and are not racially motivated. do the rules say, brown people must be in possession of ID while in library? no, so why the hell does it matter what color he was? being in the library or driving a car is not your RIGHT, it is your privelege based on your POSSESSION of the proper ID card.

i guess you could say "brown is the new black."

i guess you could say if you're any color other than white you don't have to abide by any rules.
this furthers my case that a college education equates to nothing more than a fancy piece of paper as it obviously doesn't promote any kind of common sense or personal responsibility.

 

[Silver]

this furthers my case that a college education equates to nothing more than a fancy piece of paper as it obviously doesn't promote any kind of common sense or personal responsibility.

Who ever made the claim that it did?

The existence of Mark Furman furthers the case that cops are a bunch of racist liars. One thing they teach you in college stats classes is that one data point isn't a trend...

 

[JohnE]

Yeah, all cops are racist liars. And all accountants, lawyers and doctors are Jews, pro basketballers black, Heisman trophy winners spouse abusing ex wife murdering scumbags trying to profit from a not guilty verdict, NASCAR drivers redneck white guys, secretarys female, CEOs white males etc etc. You are so right. Vive le' stereotype!
(BTW, the sarcasm font is ON...)
Please, this thread is becoming another fvck the cops thread. The kid asked for it. Period. But, he asked for it, once. The cops did over react. But you know what? None of us was there, in the cops shoes. Or in the kids shoes. And to bring Mark Fuhrman into this is ludicrous. Do not paint all cops with the same brush. One bad cop does not make all the others out there, fighting and dieing for your rights, bad.

And anyone with half a brain realizes that statistics are subjective numbers on a piece of paper that can be twisted to say just about anything one wants them to say.

 

[RenegadeRick]

And anyone with half a brain realizes that statistics are subjective numbers on a piece of paper that can be twisted to say just about anything one wants them to say.

um, no.

Congrats Silver on having the courage to point out one benefit of a liberal education. I hope manimal doesn't threaten to kick you in the nuts for your insolence.

I was going to point out that he used the wrong form of "principal" and that "privelege" was misspelled also, but I was afraid he would threaten me again with police brutality.

manimal I do have a question on your previous topic... maybe it is splitting hairs, and obviously the answer may vary by jurisdiction, but...

Is it being in possesion of a valid drivers license that permits one to drive, or is it the fact that one has complied with all the regulations of the state and passed all the necessary exams? Say at one of these license checkpoints you speak of, someone had several forms of valid ID but had left their drivers license at home. Maybe they have even memorized their license number and you were able to verify all their info on your squad car computer as well. Is this individual really not permitted to drive in this scenario? Would you arrest them?

 

[Silver]

YAnd to bring Mark Fuhrman into this is ludicrous. Do not paint all cops with the same brush. One bad cop does not make all the others out there, fighting and dieing for your rights, bad.

And anyone with half a brain realizes that statistics are subjective numbers on a piece of paper that can be twisted to say just about anything one wants them to say.

Did you read anything after the word Mark Furman in my post? Y'know, the very next sentence? Read it again. Slowly.

 

[RenegadeRick]

...Do not paint all cops with the same brush. One bad cop does not make all the others out there, fighting and dieing for your rights, bad.

Hey and while we are at it... Is that really the job of law enforcement? To fight for my rights? I thought that is what lawyers did.

I thought the job of a LEO was to enforce the laws, not to die for my rights.

 

[JohnE]

"One thing they teach you in college stats classes is that one data point isn't a trend..."
You mean this part? Slowly...
Did you get this part? (BTW, the sarcasm font is ON...)
And RR, you are saying all statistics are accurate? Right...
On the license ? (...me being a military cop) almost everything to me is case by case. If you can prove who you are (Via the other forms of id...) and know your #, and come back clean off the computer check (NCIC) you are probably going to get a pass from me. If you are a dick to me, well...

 

[JohnE]

Hey and while we are at it... Is that really the job of law enforcement? To fight for my rights? I thought that is what lawyers did.

I thought the job of a LEO was to enforce the laws, not to die for my rights.

Sure, a lawyer will fight for your rights. And all your money. The LEO will actually FIGHT for you. Is your lawyer going to step in when your wife is whipping your @ss? Didn't think so...
Is the lawyer getting the drunk driver off the street? Didn't think so, they are probably putting him back out there. Along with the gang bangers and drug dealers.
Are you arguing for the sake of argument?

 

[syadasti]

And anyone with half a brain realizes that statistics are subjective numbers on a piece of paper that can be twisted to say just about anything one wants them to say.

And RR, you are saying all statistics are accurate? Right...

Just because average person cannot understand statistics does not mean they they are all bogus numbers generated by voodoo.

Some people are bad at math or cook the books. Does that mean math and finance are pointless because some people can't do them correctly or easily assess their validity? Sh*t you better stop driving your car because you don't fully understand all the engineering that went into it either.

Following your line of thought, I guess all cops must be bad because some abuse their duties too

 

[JohnE]

Round and round in the circle we go...
Stats I trust.
Batting averages.
Goals against average.

Stats I dont trust.
Exit polls (at the polls)
Crime stats. Totally twistable.

 

[JohnE]

Just because average person cannot understand statistics does not mean they they are all bogus numbers generated by voodoo.

Some people are bad at math or cook the books. Does that mean math and finance are pointless because some people can't do them correctly or easily assess their validity? Sh*t you better stop driving your car because you don't fully understand all the engineering that went into it either.

Following your line of thought, I guess all cops must be bad because some abuse their duties too

Trying to follow "logic", just not able to...must drink more...

 

[Kihaji]

Just because average person cannot understand statistics does not mean they they are all bogus numbers generated by voodoo.

Some people are bad at math or cook the books. Does that mean math and finance are pointless because some people can't do them correctly or easily assess their validity? Sh*t you better stop driving your car because you don't fully understand all the engineering that went into it either.

Following your line of thought, I guess all cops must be bad because some abuse their duties too

The problem with statistics is not that they lie, they don't, they are always correct.

The problem with statistics is that they depend on CONTEXT. Example: 100% of the people polled agree that this kid got what he had coming to him.

That statistic is not a lie, it's not even remotely untrue. What you don't know is the size of the population, how I chose the population, and what question I asked them.

That is the result of an education period, liberal or not.

 

[syadasti]

Round and round in the circle we go...
Stats I trust.
Batting averages.
Goals against average.

Stats I dont trust.
Exit polls (at the polls)
Crime stats. Totally twistable.

Despite the natural urge to do otherwise, you should evaluate validity based on how studies are conducted not whether you disagree with the results or if it concurs with limited personal experiences. You have to evaluate a study for how it was conducted (population, SRS, double blind, sample size, etc), who financed it, and other factors that may affect its outcome. Tools can be misused or hard to understand but that doesn't mean they are useless.

Bias is part of human nature but good stats can help quickly cut through that if you take time to understand them.

That said there is also value in personal experience, anecdotes, and outliers. Your views on this incident seem fair and bring a valued viewpoint.

 

[syadasti]

...That is the result of an education period, liberal or not.

Exactly, ignorance of statistics does not make them invalid. As a result of an education you can assess their usefulness...

 

[JohnE]

The problem with statistics is not that they lie, they don't, they are always correct.

The problem with statistics is that they depend on CONTEXT. Example: 100% of the people polled agree that this kid got what he had coming to him.

That statistic is not a lie, it's not even remotely untrue. What you don't know is the size of the population, how I chose the population, and what question I asked them.
That is the result of an education period, liberal or not.

Excellent point! Really what I was trying to say all along (Really, I mean that... )
:biggrin:

 

[manimal]

um, no.

Congrats Silver on having the courage to point out one benefit of a liberal education. I hope manimal doesn't threaten to kick you in the nuts for your insolence.

I was going to point out that he used the wrong form of "principal" and that "privelege" was misspelled also, but I was afraid he would threaten me again with police brutality.

manimal I do have a question on your previous topic... maybe it is splitting hairs, and obviously the answer may vary by jurisdiction, but...

Is it being in possesion of a valid drivers license that permits one to drive, or is it the fact that one has complied with all the regulations of the state and passed all the necessary exams? Say at one of these license checkpoints you speak of, someone had several forms of valid ID but had left their drivers license at home. Maybe they have even memorized their license number and you were able to verify all their info on your squad car computer as well. Is this individual really not permitted to drive in this scenario? Would you arrest them?

thanks for proving my point further. i have a college degree and still screw up on my spelling, hence the reason i'm not an english major...but thanks for pointing that out, i'm a better person for it.

and yes, BY THE BOOK, you must carry your DL to drive. is it an arrestable offense? yes. do many officers actually arrest for it? hardly.

you see, i'd never kick silver in the nuts because i respect his opinion. he has proven logic minded in his argument over the years that i have debated with him. we don't always agree, but his conclusions are usually buried in some decent research. you, on the other hand, are firing from the hip talking about something you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about. remember, the fact that you have no idea what we do or what we deal with and the decisions we have to make is proof that we're doing our jobs. if we did nothing, you'd be face to face with some pretty nasty people and would have an entirely different outlook on crime, politics and law enforcement.

Hey and while we are at it... Is that really the job of law enforcement? To fight for my rights? I thought that is what lawyers did.

I thought the job of a LEO was to enforce the laws, not to die for my rights.

what kind of retarded statement is that? i suppose the right to life is right up there with the right to pick your nose in private or something.

you can pick on cops for all types of stereotypes but how dare you deny the sacrifice of the many, many cops who have died while protecting someones right to life both directly and indirectly.

don't forget this truth:

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
-George Orwell

 

[RenegadeRick]

Look, I really don't giva a carp about spelling and grammar. I'm just poking fun. I move pretty quickly from sarcasm to seriousness and it is often hard to tell which is which, however sir, I must object to this statement.

you, on the other hand, are firing from the hip talking about something you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about.

You mention Silver's logic and well researched opinions as a reason to accept his input in this thread. That being said, I challenge you to reread my posts in this thread and take note of the numerous links and citations and places where I got my evidence from. Then tell me what I know nothing about.

what kind of retarded statement is that? i suppose the right to life is right up there with the right to pick your nose in private or something.

This is an insensitive statement. I am sure the retarded do not wish to be compared to me. I also disagree with the idea that a LEO's job is to defend someone's rights.

Say for example, a man is apparently threatening another man. A law enforcement officer is involved, the officer orders the man to stop and the command goes unheeded, so the officer uses a taser to stop the apparent aggressor. Now say that the man dies as a result. Wasn't this man just deprived of their right to life? How can you say that the LEO's job is to protect people's rights when the clear possiblity exists that in certain siutations the result of the LEO's actions may deprive someone of their rights?

Continuing this hypothetical scenario, let us say that what actually was happening was that 2 deaf brothers were play fighting and they were unable to hear the initial order to stop. Certainly you cannot say that the rights of either party involved were preserved in this case.

This is why the courts are the only part of government entitled to deprive an individual of their rights, as guaranteed by the Fifth amendment to the Constitution.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

you can pick on cops for all types of stereotypes but how dare you deny the sacrifice of the many, many cops who have died while protecting someones right to life both directly and indirectly.

Stereotypes are a reality of human nature, but I don't recall where I picked on cops in this thread. I don't recall denying anyone's sacrifices. Sure LEOs die defending people and property, but defending people's rights? I guess I just see the definition of rights differently than you do. Am I not entitled to a difference of opinion?

don't forget this truth:
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
-George Orwell

Orwell was a wise man, but truth is a strong word. In that statement he uses the word "only". It implies that there is a singular method of occurrence. We all know this is untrue. Some may be blind drunk to pass out and sleep peacably. Others may have just enjoyed sweet lovin'. It seems there are many ways one could sleep peaceably. Just sayin'...

 

[stevew]

 

[JohnE]

Yeah, what he said!

 

[RenegadeRick]

If that is what it takes... so be it.

 

[DRB]

If that is what it takes... so be it.

Takes to do what? Knock yourself out?

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

The COPS new world order attitude...With more liberal pussies everywhere afraid to get thier hands dirty, the cops will take advantage of that & try & control the USA....
Remember the black guy in the movie "Men at Work".. Cops,i hate cops....Rent a cops..i hate them too !..............

 

[ridetoofast]

And the sheep stood there and watched? I don't know about you, but watching that made my blood boil (eg: curb a cop). Mob violence in aisle 3, pls.

i don't usually agree with you but in this instance i couldn't agree more.
i know law enforcement is a ****ty job, but me reaction to this brings up the 'p' word...fvkcing PIG!!!!
in a just world they'd get the exact same treatment they just doled out.

 

[robdamanii]

I love how all of you are screaming that the cops should have been beaten down by all the people watching, but you know damned well when faced with a tazer like those kids were, you'd stand there and not do a damn thing.

Hypocritical.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

I love how all of you are screaming that the cops should have been beaten down by all the people watching, but you know damned well when faced with a tazer like those kids were, you'd stand there and not do a damn thing.

Hypocritical.

they'll never admit it though........

 

[binary visions]

I love how all of you are screaming that the cops should have been beaten down by all the people watching, but you know damned well when faced with a tazer like those kids were, you'd stand there and not do a damn thing.

Hypocritical.

I love how that has nothing to do with this discussion at all... aside from he fact that you have no idea who you are talking to or how anyone would react in a given situation

 

[robdamanii]

I love how that has nothing to do with this discussion at all... aside from he fact that you have no idea who you are talking to or how anyone would react in a given situation

Ah yes, let's redirect the discussion again. Let's take Blue as an example. He claimed that he'd like to reach through the monitor and bust the officer's skull in. Lots of blowhard from someone who would likely back off if threatened with a tazing. I find it amusing that people are so quick to make comments when they know they wouldn't follow through with it.

And as for not knowing what I'm talking about: re-read what I've posted. Kid gives cops a hard time, kid gets tazered. Kid refuses to comply with cops even after being warned he would be tazed again. Kid gets tazed again. Etc. Kid deserved it, cops were justified in it, end of story. There's no hypothetical here. There's no questioning anything here. He directly disobeyed the officers when they told him to do something, he agitated them by screaming about their supposed abuse of power and the Patriot Act when all he had to do was just answer "Yes sir, no sir". He justly got everything coming to him, and I feel no pity for him.

 

[skinny mike]

an eyewitness's account:

The first thing I noticed was the student shout “don’t touch me” the very first time when he was still as his desk (a little earlier than when the camera began to roll I believe. I was about 30 feet away from him.) I hadn’t noticed the policemen come in. I looked over and I saw the student standing up, his hands were in the air in a very “get your hands off me” manner. One of the police officers did in fact have his hands on him and was grabbing one of his right arms, or maybe more but I didn’t pay too much attention to it right away (I was doing work on the computer). I returned to typing as it seemed that he was just going to escorted out. I thought the incident was over then and went back to my paper. A very short time later (maybe I’d estimate 30 secondsish) I heard him again, but this time farther down by the exit of the computer lab, shouting “don’t touch me” and soon after the shock.

I was stunned and I think most other people were stunned as well. One girl started trotting over from where I was and said “you can’t do that”. I got up soon after and walked over. I didn’t see what happened before the first shock, but I soon approached and saw him held on the ground by the officers and in the midst of being cuffed. I don’t know if he had been struggling up to this point, but when I got there he was pretty much subdued and the officers were doing the struggling (turning him over to finish cuffing him, manhandling him pretty much). He yelled a few things during this time and you can hear it all on the video. Then the officers were dragging him up from his arms and demanding that he stand up. He looked really messed up at this point, as if he had just ran a race or something. His face was kind of pinkish (probably from the shock and all the shouting) and his body was slumped. I started saying to him “get up dude, just get up”, and I think some other people may have been encouraging him. He wasn’t making a move and just about then they shocked him again.

At this point a couple of other students and I started shouting back at the cops. I hadn’t seen what led to the first shock, but I did see the time in between and the second shock was completely unjustifiable. He was definitely not being violent, he wasn’t moving, at all. A few of us were shouting as they led him down the stairway and shocked him right there going down and he fell pretty hard on the tiles of the steps (I think you can see him flying up on the video). They dragged him down to the entrance foyer and there I, and a couple other students became more vocal. The CSOs were trying to block us off at this point, but they were porous and few. Several students had been demanding badge numbers, but the 2 officers had obviously not responded up to that point, and never did. (The student was shocked AT LEAST two more times before he was finally dragged out of the building.)

In the foyer, there were a few other officers. One of them came to approach us. One other student and I started speaking with this officer, saying mostly 1) this student is being assaulted by these officers and you have to stop this and 2) we want the names and badge numbers of all the officers there. He told us that we would get them and that we needed to calm down. The student was pretty much motionless at this point except for the few times he was being tased. We continued complaining as the student was being dragged out, but he was badly obscured at this point by several officers and security guards. Then another officer approached me directly and told me to back up, to which I replied with some witty remark about the limits of his authority in the situation. He told me again to back up, and I said something like “I just want your badge numbers” and he told me again to back up right now and that if I didn’t move back I would be tased too. I didn’t move and looked at him directly, at which point he raised his taser gun and pointed it at me (I saw the red light glow right in the center of it) and said “try me”. I turned around and lifted my hands.

I walked around and approached the other officer I had talked to earlier. I again asked for badge numbers. One of the officers (can’t clearly remember which one or what number it was) responded with a single three digit number (which I am assuming was his own) and I saw the officer who had threatened me earlier walking out. I was held up for a couple seconds when the badge numbers of the two assaulting officers were given then walked out to follow the officer who had left. He was down below the stairs where there were about 5 police cars parked all facing the library. I trotted down and he immediately started approaching me. I said “I want your badge number”. He continued approaching me and pointed his taser gun at me again and told me to go back inside.

I walked back inside and started talking to people. I kept asking if anyone got all their badge numbers. One student assured me that he had gotten them. The whole place was buzzing at this point. People were talking, discussing, encouraging each other about doing things about it (which including calling news sources, writing to the chancellor, the regents, and the police department, etc.) It was here as I was talking to people that I first discovered that the initial violation had been that he didn’t show identification. I persistently asked everyone I talked to if the officers had ever stated that they were arresting the student or if rights had been read. I even spoke to the student who was sitting near him when the officers first approached. Everyone of the students I spoke to said that they had heard no mentions of arrest or Miranda rights. We pieced the story together, bits and pieces, there among us all.

I went back and packed all my stuff and went for a coffee at the vending machines and made a call out to someone I knew from the daily bruin. When I returned another student was being kicked out of the library for an unrelated event by the two officers I had spoken to. I recognized the student and greeted him. They were very rude to both of us and continued to be as they got his information and eventually left. I went back in and finished what work I had to do and eventually went home.

 

[binary visions]

And as for not knowing what I'm talking about: re-read what I've posted. Kid gives cops a hard time, kid gets tazered. Kid refuses to comply with cops even after being warned he would be tazed again. Kid gets tazed again. Etc. Kid deserved it, cops were justified in it, end of story.

Restating previous arguments doesn't make them better and I still don't agree with it. Of course, the funny part is that I wasn't even discussing your argument about the topic at hand, I was discussing your ridiculous non sequiter. Ad hominem insults are lame, and your opinion on whether or not blue is a "blowhard" or would follow through with his talk doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the student deserved the treatment he was given and doesn't discredit anything that he (or anyone else) has to say.

 

[Silver]

Kid gives cops a hard time, kid gets tazered. Kid refuses to comply with cops even after being warned he would be tazed again. Kid gets tazed again. Etc. Kid deserved it, cops were justified in it, end of story. There's no hypothetical here. There's no questioning anything here. He directly disobeyed the officers when they told him to do something, he agitated them by screaming about their supposed abuse of power and the Patriot Act when all he had to do was just answer "Yes sir, no sir". He justly got everything coming to him, and I feel no pity for him.

The fact that a working police officer on this thread finds it odd that they were yelling at him to get UP after being tasered apparently doesn't mean anything.

Of course, the fact that most of the people on this thread seem to think that excessive force was used doesn't matter to you either. You're correct, and that's it! Who the **** died and made you James Dobson?

 

[skinny mike]

Ah yes, let's redirect the discussion again. Let's take Blue as an example. He claimed that he'd like to reach through the monitor and bust the officer's skull in. Lots of blowhard from someone who would likely back off if threatened with a tazing. I find it amusing that people are so quick to make comments when they know they wouldn't follow through with it.

just because you would be a pussy in that situation does not mean everyone else would be one too. i'm not saying that i would have attacked the officers, but i would have stood up to them.

why does someone who goes limp in protest deserve to be tazed. he wasn't thrashing about, they could have just dragged him out. and also, he asked the cso who asked for his id to check the id of the white guys around him as well, but they refused to do so.