[robdamanii]

just because you would be a pussy in that situation does not mean everyone else would be one too. i'm not saying that i would have attacked the officers, but i would have stood up to them.

why does someone who goes limp in protest deserve to be tazed. he wasn't thrashing about, they could have just dragged him out. and also, he asked the cso who asked for his id to check the id of the white guys around him as well, but they refused to do so.

Why does someone passively resisting arrest deserve to be tazed? Why does someone actively resisting arrest deserve to be tazed? Same difference as far as I'm concerned. Passive resistance is resistance.

Again, I'm not feeling bad for someone who brought this on themselves.

BV, I was simply commenting on the amount of e-anger everyone is showing in an issue that they would likely NOT do as they brag they would. I find that quite amusing, and the glaring anger really undermines any real thought that goes into the response.

And Silver, yes, it may be odd that they were yelling at him to get up, but the point remains that they DID. And he refused, vehemently, in fact (Fvck off, I believe was the first comment), so he got shocked again.

See above about my not feeling bad for him. This all could have been avoided by simply a "yes sir, no sir" and being polite, weather he liked it or not.

 

[robdamanii]

and also, he asked the cso who asked for his id to check the id of the white guys around him as well, but they refused to do so.

So you're telling me this is a racial profiling incident then? Did they flat our refuse to check, or were they more interested in the fact that he had no ID to check?

I don't buy it.

Also, interesting bit in the "eyewitness account" of the guy who confronted the officers.

Then another officer approached me directly and told me to back up, to which I replied with some witty remark about the limits of his authority in the situation.

Smart ass kid who annoys the cops and he wonders why he got threatened with a tazer? Holy christ, rich college kids think they know everything.

 

[skinny mike]

Smart ass kid who annoys the cops and he wonders why he got threatened with a tazer? Holy christ, rich college kids think they know everything.

so a smart ass comment deserves a threat of violence?

 

[binary visions]

Why does someone passively resisting arrest deserve to be tazed? Why does someone actively resisting arrest deserve to be tazed? Same difference as far as I'm concerned. Passive resistance is resistance.

By that (poor) logic, they could have just shot him without any consequences. After all, he was resisting arrest, and resistance is resistance, right?

It's not. Passively resisting and violently resisting are not the same thing, and do not deserve the same consequences. Even I conceded that the initial tasing was appropriate because he was "resistant," once he was on the floor, he should have been subdued and dragged out of there, not shocked again and again.

 

[skinny mike]

By that (poor) logic, they could have just shot him without any consequences. After all, he was resisting arrest, and resistance is resistance, right?

It's not. Passively resisting and violently resisting are not the same thing, and do not deserve the same consequences. Even I conceded that the initial tasing was appropriate because he was "resistant," once he was on the floor, he should have been subdued and dragged out of there, not shocked again and again.

he actually went limp before he got tazed the first time. check out the interview between keith olbermann and mostafa's lawyer on msnbc.com.

 

[robdamanii]

so a smart ass comment deserves a threat of violence?

Dude, you know very well, you poke the pitbull, you're going to get bitten. That's pretty much common sense.

By that (poor) logic, they could have just shot him without any consequences. After all, he was resisting arrest, and resistance is resistance, right?

It's not. Passively resisting and violently resisting are not the same thing, and do not deserve the same consequences. Even I conceded that the initial tasing was appropriate because he was "resistant," once he was on the floor, he should have been subdued and dragged out of there, not shocked again and again.

Again, I disagree. Resisting is still resisting, and that's the bottom line. Would I agree with shooting him? No. The difference? A tazer is an alternative to deadly force, which seems to mean that it's not deadly. They could have maced him, choked him out, etc etc. Same difference, and none any less inhumane than being tazed.

he actually went limp before he got tazed the first time. check out the interview between keith olbermann and mostafa's lawyer on msnbc.com.

Haven't seen this yet. I'll have to read it and see what it says.

If he did go limp, perhaps it would have behooved him to not scream "abuse of power, here's your f'in patriot act" prior to getting it the first time. That doesn't sound like passive resistance to me. And perhaps he should have shut his mouth instead of telling them to "f off" after the first one. Again, doesn't sound like passive resistance.

 

[robdamanii]

Re: the Olberman interview:

1) He didn't produce his ID because he felt he was being racially profiled? TOUGH SH!T! Suck it up, say you're pissed and show them the damned ID you moron.

2) He fell limp in protest because they wouldn't take their hands off of him? And that's NOT provoking the cops and asking for trouble? Frankly, they are cops, and if they're escorting you out of the building, JUST LET THEM DO IT AND DEAL WITH IT!

3) The attorney is contending that the officers "have aggressive and violent tendencies, which is common in Southern California". So now we're going to generalize that all police in SOcal are bad just to incriminate these guys? He must be kidding.

4) Attorney claims that they are just autonomous officers not under control of the civilian democratic society of the university. Isn't it the administration's job to oversee the officers, NOT the student body? They are not elected, they are hired, so they are not directly overseen by the students anyway. Is there a point of the attorney actually making this argument?

5) Related to number 1. They never explained if the CSOs refused to check the others, or didn't check others because this asshat refused to show his ID. Could it be that his bitching about "racial profiling" caused them to not check the other students because their attention was drawn to the guy causing a problem?

6) "he went limp because he thought if he was passive, nothing would happen to him" Seeking a free pass for resisting an officer's orders. Awesome.


I'm not moved. Every piece I see on this reinforces that this kid brought this upon himself and I don't feel at all sorry for him.

 

[blue]

It's not okay to bend over and take it from the police in every situation. I don't buy the "You mess with the bull" argument. If you're considering the police "the bull", there's something fundamentally flawed with the system.

Pick your battles. In this case, Mustafo chose wisely.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

here's a similar example of this situation from my own personal experience:

go to a pool hall, and they card you at the door and mark your hands with a sharpie if youre under 21. i'm 20, so i get my hands marked. i go in, hang out for a bit, then proceed to rub off the marker so i can get myself a beer. waitress comes around, i order a beer, checks my hand and gets me said beer. 5 minutes later the manager comes over and asks for my ID. did i scream and protest? no. i knew i ****ed up, so i headed for the door before he even asked me to leave.

although he was a student, there is no argument there, all he had to do was present his ID and continue doing what he was doing. simple as that. by not showing his ID and only escalating the situation himself, he deserved what he had coming to him.

 

[robdamanii]

It's not okay to bend over and take it from the police in every situation. I don't buy the "You mess with the bull" argument. If you're considering the police "the bull", there's something fundamentally flawed with the system.

Pick your battles. In this case, Mustafo chose wisely.

Chose wisely for WHAT? He could have simply said "I feel like I'm being profiled, but here's the ID. Leave me alone." Cops would have never been called and he would still be sitting there writing his papers, not getting tazered for being a "rebel".

 

[binary visions]

Again, I disagree. Resisting is still resisting, and that's the bottom line. Would I agree with shooting him? No. The difference? A tazer is an alternative to deadly force, which seems to mean that it's not deadly. They could have maced him, choked him out, etc etc. Same difference, and none any less inhumane than being tazed.

Cute. Must be nice to live in a world that black and white. I would have disagreed just as much if they maced him three times, twice after he was limp on the floor. Or if they choked him until he was on the floor, then threatened to choke him again if he didn't get up, and then choked him again after they had him in cuffs.

Sorry, but the police are responsible to assess a situation and respond with the appropriate amount of force. This was not the appropriate amount amount of force - suggesting that showing anything but totally respectful compliance justifies anything short of deadly force is absurd.

When you are given the responsibility of carrying weapons, you are also given the charge to make responsible and appropriate decisions regarding their use. Just because they're not deadly weapons doesn't mean that they can be used on a whim.

 

[JRogers]

I bet the people who think this kid had it coming would think differently if the police used a different method. What if they said "get up or we'll punch you in the face until you do" or "get up or I'll go at your ribs with my flashlight"?

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

I bet the people who think this kid had it coming would think differently if the police used a different method. What if they said "get up or we'll punch you in the face until you do" or "get up or I'll go at your ribs with my flashlight"?

i would say he deserved that more than getting tazed, for sure. he did, however, deserve some sort of repremand for disobeying an authoritative, badge-holding figure, and refusing to comply to a completely legal and legitimate procedure...

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

I bet the people who think this kid had it coming would think differently if the police used a different method. What if they said "get up or we'll punch you in the face until you do" or "get up or I'll go at your ribs with my flashlight"?

This is basically equivalent to clubbing or macing someone who is already laying on the ground, cuffed, with no means of protecting themselves, and not posing a threat to the officers.

I'm with BV on this, the first use of tazer could have been acceptable, but everything after they got the cuffs on him is just bull****.

 

[untitledsince89]

again, i'm not promoting their actions of using the tazer in the first place, i'm just proving that the cops were justified in not letting him leave, he taunted the bull by not leaving the first time he was asked. but in this case there are other methods to be used, especially when you have the only exit covered. my department currently isn't using tazers while we wait for the justice academy to finish their report on the liability/safety of tazers. i believe that they are a very useful tool, especially when confronted with a situation where lethal force could be used....but an unarmed kid who couldn't go anywhere could've been handled differently.

I totally agree with you in this case

Idc even that the cops did use a tazer, there first, or even 2nd time, but after that?!? That is when i got pissed off and righfully so. With the guy on the ground, and according to medical reports about recovery time of the tazers, the continueing use of the tazers to get him to stand was a completely dumbass move on the cops part.
When someone is cuffed, the tazering should have stopped.

 

[untitledsince89]

The problem with statistics is not that they lie, they don't, they are always correct.

The problem with statistics is that they depend on CONTEXT. Example: 100% of the people polled agree that this kid got what he had coming to him.

That statistic is not a lie, it's not even remotely untrue. What you don't know is the size of the population, how I chose the population, and what question I asked them.

That is the result of an education period, liberal or not.

also this is very true, stats, are not lies, in every statment and question, the answer and truth lies in the conext in which is asked and in which it is applied

 

[untitledsince89]

By that (poor) logic, they could have just shot him without any consequences. After all, he was resisting arrest, and resistance is resistance, right?

It's not. Passively resisting and violently resisting are not the same thing, and do not deserve the same consequences. Even I conceded that the initial tasing was appropriate because he was "resistant," once he was on the floor, he should have been subdued and dragged out of there, not shocked again and again.

damn you beat me too it, I was totally about to call him out on this

 

[JRogers]

i would say he deserved that more than getting tazed, for sure. he did, however, deserve some sort of repremand for disobeying an authoritative, badge-holding figure, and refusing to comply to a completely legal and legitimate procedure...

So, you are basically a proponent of what most people would call "police brutality".

I would like to see a court, judge or jury decide punishments and have police just do what is necessary.

 

[JRogers]

This is basically equivalent to clubbing or macing someone who is already laying on the ground, cuffed, with no means of protecting themselves, and not posing a threat to the officers.

I'm with BV on this, the first use of tazer could have been acceptable, but everything after they got the cuffs on him is just bull****.

Can't tell if you read my statement right....I was agreeing with BV

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

So, you are basically a proponent of what most people would call "police brutality".

I would like to see a court, judge or jury decide punishments and have police just do what is necessary.

so are you saying that no form of physical counteraction is appropriate and should be legal when dealing with resisting persons/suspects/threats? i'm not saying he deserved to be tazed, but he got something coming to him. what if he was picked up and carried out of the library? thats physical contact.........is that still police brutality?....where do we draw the line of what is brutality and what are actions that need to be done?


you people need to get out of your little "perfect worlds" where everything is resolved without any form of violence.....

 

[binary visions]

Can't tell if you read my statement right....I was agreeing with BV

is an old smilie that we had that used to read "I'm with stupid"... he was agreeing

 

[syadasti]

what if he was picked up and carried out of the library? thats physical contact.........is that still police brutality?

No and there would not be a story if that happened. It was the third police brutality incident in area. Perhaps he figured if he was non-threatening they wouldn't harm him as it had been occurring in prior cases recently in the area. Civil disobedience is not a new concept.

 

[binary visions]

you people need to get out of your little "perfect worlds" where everything is resolved without any form of violence.....

Well, I'm not going to go back and read every single post again, but I've been reading this thread the whole time and I don't think anyone has ever said that he wasn't allowed to be touched. As a matter of fact, I think you'd have seen damn little outrage if he had been shocked, cuffed and dragged out of the library without a fuss.

What he did NOT deserve was to be shocked, screamed at while on the floor, shocked again while he was on the floor, hauled up and cuffed, and then shocked again while he was ALREADY SUBDUED AND NOT FIGHTING.

 

[Silver]

what if he was picked up and carried out of the library? thats physical contact.........is that still police brutality?....

No, it's not. And had they done that when he went limp, there would have been no crowd, no repeated taser use, and no huge lawsuit that the student is either going to win or receive a huge settlement. There also would have been no story, and you wouldn't have asked such a stupid question. The world, in short, would have been a better place.

 

[Reactor]

I don't really know what happened during the initial contact between the officers and the student. It's possible, that the four officers responding felt threatened enough that they would have shot the kid if they didn't have tazers. Unlikely but possible, it's LA after all, and they might be Rampart Rejects.

What is completely inexcusable, and what is probably going to cost the university a couple of million dollars , is the second, third, fourth and so on uses of the tazer. Whatever you feel about the initial contact, very few people are see the video in the courtroom and say "yeah that's o.k., that's how I want the police to handle my kid if he forgot his id card". Even if he were a tresspasser, not a student, it still wouldn't be justified. Once he was on the ground, and no longer a threat, any continued use of the tazer was no longer justified. Screaming for him to get up, which he may have been physically unable to do, and then continuing to tazer him completely outside any realistic need.

Taser International's police and law enforcement warnings actually warn against multiple and repeated exposures, because it can cause breathing imparement, strain injuries. Further more a subject who is displaying certain symptoms is actually at risk for "Sudden in custody death syndrome" They also warn you to "Avoid Torturous or Other Misuse. "

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

so let me ask you people this..........because i feel i am getting the wrong impression from a startling amount of you. do you feel the kid deserved no repremand at all? by the way many of you are arguing, and the results of the poll, it sounds like you feel he should have got away with it scot free. i agree 100% that the excessive tazering is uncalled for, but i want to make sure people realize the kid deserved some sort of action initially (i believe).....

if you feel that no action was warranted and called for, i am speechless.

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

No, it's not. And had they done that when he went limp, there would have been no crowd, no repeated taser use, and no huge lawsuit that the student is either going to win or receive a huge settlement. There also would have been no story, and you wouldn't have asked such a stupid question. The world, in short, would have been a better place.

For the win...

 

[.:Jeenyus:.]

so let me ask you people this..........because i feel i am getting the wrong impression from a startling amount of you. do you feel the kid deserved no repremand at all? by the way many of you are arguing, and the results of the poll, it sounds like you feel he should have got away with it scot free. i agree 100% that the excessive tazering is uncalled for, but i want to make sure people realize the kid deserved some sort of action initially (i believe).....

if you feel that no action was warranted and called for, i am speechless.

Your reading comprehension skills are teh suck.

 

[skinny mike]

so let me ask you people this..........because i feel i am getting the wrong impression from a startling amount of you. do you feel the kid deserved no repremand at all? by the way many of you are arguing, and the results of the poll, it sounds like you feel he should have got away with it scot free. i agree 100% that the excessive tazering is uncalled for, but i want to make sure people realize the kid deserved some sort of action initially (i believe).....

if you feel that no action was warranted and called for, i am speechless.

the kid should have been taken out of the library by the police, but i don't think any sort of action should have been taken to subdue him if he went limp. i find it hard to believe that 3 officers couldn't carry/drag the student out of there. violence was not necessary in that situation imo.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

Your reading comprehension skills are teh suck.

how so?

as you guys have said, stats dont lie.......and according to the poll, a majority of you said the police were completely wrong and were to blame.........not that both had done something wrong..........

 

[BMXman]

It's amazing to me how folks are still agrueing this and we haven't heard the cops side of the story or confirmation of why he was even confronted in the first place....D

 

[binary visions]

how so?

as you guys have said, stats dont lie.......and according to the poll, a majority of you said the police were completely wrong and were to blame.........not that both had done something wrong..........

Seriously, man, please read before you argue. It has been spelled out numerous times.

Yes, the police were COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG according to a lot of us. That doesn't mean that we believe the cops didn't have the right to cuff him, drag him out, whatever. Maybe some people believe that, some people don't, but read the posts. The problem was with the over-the-top violent use of the taser multiple times.

 

[RenegadeRick]

A tazer is an alternative to deadly force, which seems to mean that it's not deadly.

And here we have the crux of the issue. There is a misperception that tasers are not deadly weapons and this simply is not true. A taser is indeed an alternative to deadly force, but this does not mean that it is not deadly. This thread is getting long. Perhaps some of you have missed the content from some earlier links.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2005/05/30/m1a_taser_0530.html
Tasers have been cited in autopsies of at least two people who have died following shocks in Florida, which leads the nation in Taser-involved deaths with 24 since 1999. After a man shocked with a Taser in Escambia County died in January, a medical examiner declined to cite either a cause or manner of death, saying that not enough is known about the weapon's effects.

Tasers are weapons and they can kill. Don't believe me? Well let us consult the manufacturer. Here are some excerpts from Taser's Law Enforcement Product Warnings.

http://www.taser.com/safety/LG-INST-LEWARN-001%20REV%20K%20Law%20Enforcement%20Product%20Warnings.pdf

Though they have been found to be a safer and more effective alternative when used as directed to other traditional use of force tools and techniques, it is important to remember that the very nature of use of force and physical incapacitation involves a degree of risk that someone will get hurt or may even be killed due to physical exertion, unforeseen circumstances and individual susceptibilities.

From the same document, here is how Taser International advises use:

Avoid Torturous or Other Misuse.
...
Control and Restrain Immediately. Begin control and restraint procedures as soon as it is reasonably safe to do so in order to minimize the total duration of exertion and stress experienced by the subject. User should avoid touching the probes and wires and the areas between the probes during TASER electrical discharge.
...
Continuous Exposure Risks. When practical, avoid prolonged or continuous exposure(s) to the TASER device's electrical discharge. In some circumstances, in susceptible people, it is conceivable that the stress and exertion of extensive repeated, prolonged, or continuous application(s) of the TASER device may contribute to cumulative exhaustion, stress, and associated medical risk(s).
...
Extended or repeated TASER device exposures should be avoided where practical.

Why can this be a problem? Let us consult this same document...

In tests conducted on anesthetized pigs repeated TASER device applications did cause cessation of breathing during TASER device discharges

They emphasise the same point repeatedly:

Accordingly, it is advisable to use expedient physical restraint in conjunction with the TASER device to minimize the overall duration of stress, exertion, and potential breathing impairment particularly on individuals exhibiting symptoms of excited delirium and/or exhaustion.

So in conclusion, was it appropriate for the officers to repeatedly taser the UCLA student after he was already on the ground and had already been handcuffed and restrained? Let us consult Taser International's product info sheet

http://www.taser.com/law/product_info/index.htm
Most confrontations do not justify the use of lethal force, but you should not have to expose yourself to risk of injury from physical confrontation with a violent combatant.
...
The ADVANCED TASER product uses proprietary technology to incapacitate dangerous, combative, or high-risk subjects

Does this sound like Mostafa to you?

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

Seriously, man, please read before you argue. It has been spelled out numerous times.

Yes, the police were COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG according to a lot of us. That doesn't mean that we believe the cops didn't have the right to cuff him, drag him out, whatever. Maybe some people believe that, some people don't, but read the posts. The problem was with the over-the-top violent use of the taser multiple times.

i've read every post in this thread several times. it seems to me that people only see a fine line and that you must be on one side or the other. both parties were equally wrong, thats all im saying. i dont think anyone believe the amount of tazering was justified.....

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

dangerous, combative, or high-risk subjects

Does this sound like Mostafa to you?

someone who causes a scene yelling and screaming about their rights in the middle of a campus library............yes, to a degree......

 

[RenegadeRick]

i've read every post in this thread several times. it seems to me that people only see a fine line and that you must be on one side or the other. both parties were equally wrong, thats all im saying. i dont think anyone believe the amount of tazering was justified.....

It seemed that rob did. He stated that Mostafa failed to comply with the officer's orders to get up (even though he may have been unable to do so).

 

[RenegadeRick]

someone who causes a scene yelling and screaming about their rights in the middle of a campus library............yes, to a degree......

I am unclear about the order of that. Wasn't he tased before he started saying that stuff?

As much as it will pain me to do so, I suppose I will have to watch the video again. He was tased 5 times. How many times are on the video?

If these statements were after being tased, then this could be an example of symptoms of Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome

http://www.taser.com/safety/LG-INST-LEWARN-001%20REV%20K%20Law%20Enforcement%20Product%20Warnings.pdf
Signs of Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome include: extreme agitation, bizarre behavior, inappropriate nudity, imperviousness to pain, paranoia, exhaustive exertion, “superhuman” strength, hallucinations, sweating profusely, etc.

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

i wasnt under the impression that rob agreed with the AMOUNT of tazing, only that he deserved to be tazed.

and i will have to see the video again myself, but i remember him yelling and screaming before the tazering started, but i could be wrong.

 

[RenegadeRick]

i wasnt under the impression that rob agreed with the AMOUNT of tazing, only that he deserved to be tazed.

Please read his latest posts again.

And Silver, yes, it may be odd that they were yelling at him to get up, but the point remains that they DID. And he refused, vehemently, in fact (Fvck off, I believe was the first comment), so he got shocked again.

and i will have to see the video again myself, but i remember him yelling and screaming before the tazering started, but i could be wrong.

I just watched it again (well the beginning anyhow)...
He screamed "don't touch me" before tasering, the "Patriot Act" and "Abuse of Power" was afterwards.

 

[RenegadeRick]

If he did go limp, perhaps it would have behooved him to not scream "abuse of power, here's your f'in patriot act" prior to getting it the first time.

This is incorrect. Those statements came after the first tasering. Please watch the video again.

The "funk off" was after the first hit as well. "You motherfunkers" was during the 2nd application. A "funk you" came after the third (not sure who said this). After this the vid becomes pretty hard to follow, but you can definitely determine there were 2 further tasings.