As long as he could get inside without catching something, maybe. But Chuck KO'ed Randy, I doubt Silva would have much trouble putting him to sleep with a spinning back fist or a cartwheel or some sh!t.
It's called wraslin'
Ankle picking and speedbagging Toney on the ground held a moderate level of excitement. Basically, would Toney be able to throw a punch before Randy took him down.
Yeah, that was exciting because everybody loves to see the cocky guy get owned and made to look like a fool. It wasn't exciting because it was a good fight. It was just exciting because everybody wanted to see that fat slob get clowned. Anybody in the HW class could've done that.
I think Toney is going to drop down to 205 next time since there is a lot less talent in that class.
UFC still suffers a little bit of inferiority complex. I felt that way when I tried arguing MMA over boxing with an old friend, and I heard the classic arguments like a MMA couldn't beat a boxer in a boxing match or boxers would win because of their punching power.
In other words, stupid sh*t which I couldn't win despite being an ex-boxing fan.
While I don't see a Anderson Silva vs Manny Pacquiao in the works, having Couture fight James Toney, who WAS a known boxing champion, helps to promote UFC in the boxing world.
In other words, stupid sh*t which I couldn't win despite being an ex-boxing fan.
While I don't see a Anderson Silva vs Manny Pacquiao in the works, having Couture fight James Toney, who WAS a known boxing champion, helps to promote UFC in the boxing world.
pow, right in the kisser
It would be an awesome fight, though. 5 5min rounds? See if Silva can bob and weave someone as fast as Many, that would certainly make or break that argument.
I honestly think that Silva would at least stand a chance with Pacquiao in a pure stand up fight. Maybe do K1 rules with 5oz gloves to be fair?
<edit> That picture looks a lot more brutal than it looked in the fight. That is a nasty shot to the grille.
While Randy does have superior grappling than most guys he fights, I enjoy the grappling and positioning aspect as much as the striking and knockouts.
Of course I wrestled in high school and coach youth wrestling, so I am a bit biased.
I really enjoyed the Clay Guida shannon gugerty fight that was replayed on WEC the other day. Classic grappling, Guida worked the dude over for 2 rounds and then finally choked him out. So I don't really mind coutures style, but I can see where some people get bored with that. Unless you really know what you are watching for.
LOL! Did he say that?I think Toney is going to drop down to 205 next time since there is a lot less talent in that class.
It was just a funny thought I had when thinking of all the mouth breathers in the UFC HW class, yet just about every one of them would have likely beaten Toney.
Chris Leben went from 205 to 185 because he thought 205 was too easy. Then he met Anderson Silva
While Leben has a better record than Toney, I think they are about equal in the value they bring to the UFC.
Silva sonnen 2 would be awesome as I think Anderson would take his head off to prove a point.
I appreciate grappling although it does require more patience.
I was commenting that Matt Hughes used to work his positions then finish you.
But some fighters, particularly Jake Shields, just hold on until they win on points.
That's why I am counting on GSP destroying him.
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/steve_buffery/2011/02/08/17200251.html
GSP said:
You must be joking. Leben may be a bit crazy and for some unbearable but he can defend a stupid takedown and make a fight entertaining. I can't even understand Toney, let alone watch his fights where he falls easier than Butterbean.It was just a funny thought I had when thinking of all the mouth breathers in the UFC HW class, yet just about every one of them would have likely beaten Toney.
Chris Leben went from 205 to 185 because he thought 205 was too easy. Then he met Anderson Silva
Leben has been known to land a lucky shot, but how many of his fights have you ever watched and thought "Wow, what an impressive display of skill and technique".
More like "Wow, he sure can take a shot". As if he should be rewarded for having a level of mental retardation that allows him to still function, despite being hit by every shot his opponent throws.
There are a whole mess of rednecks who can take a shot. He is one of the worst fighters to ever come out of Team Quest, and Team Quest is full of rednecks from Gresham.
Hell, look at Ed Herman. He's about as redneck AND from Gresham as they get.
I don't watch his fights to admire his techniques I watch his fights to see people fighting instead of scoring points. I like that in him. He fights for his own rules and for the fans not for the point wins.Leben has been known to land a lucky shot, but how many of his fights have you ever watched and thought "Wow, what an impressive display of skill and technique".
More like "Wow, he sure can take a shot". As if he should be rewarded for having a level of mental retardation that allows him to still function, despite being hit by every shot his opponent throws.
There are a whole mess of rednecks who can take a shot. He is one of the worst fighters to ever come out of Team Quest, and Team Quest is full of rednecks from Gresham.
Hell, look at Ed Herman. He's about as redneck AND from Gresham as they get.
He may be a redneck and have little skill (though probably more than any of us so still quite a lot
) but he's not there to have a beer with him, he is there to fight. I don't care about his personality nor technique.Randy has superior wrestling, but not superior grappling. Watch the fight between him and BIg Nog. Wrestling vs superior grappling. Randy was fighting to survive. I just get really tired of him winning fights by huggin against the fence and "dirty boxing.". That **** sucks, and it's bad for the sport. It makes new enthusiasts laugh at how boring it is. That's not MMA, that's a wrestling match with little love taps.
I've been watching UFC since 1996, and I too love to see submissions over knockouts. I love watching two good grapplers, but they're few and far between these days.
One of the best displays of grappling technique was that Edward Rocha guy on the last fight card. That guy was impressive.
Another impressive grappler is Demian Maia.
My favorite guys to watch are the ones that are like octopus's attacking whatever they can grab. Charles Oliveira, Royce Gracie, Sakuraba, Shogun, old skool Big Nog. Those guys are good and can attack from any position, not just from the top where they're laying on someone, controlling the position for points.
Someone was saying something about Leben not fighting with skill. Watch the fight with him against Sexiyama. That win was all technique. Leben will be fighting in the UFC for a while because he always has exciting fights. You don't have to win every fight to be in UFC. But if you aren't winning, you better be bringin some good fights. Leben vs Stann was good. So was Leben vs Simpson.
Meth wins!Leben has been known to land a lucky shot, but how many of his fights have you ever watched and thought "Wow, what an impressive display of skill and technique".
More like "Wow, he sure can take a shot". As if he should be rewarded for having a level of mental retardation that allows him to still function, despite being hit by every shot his opponent throws.
There are a whole mess of rednecks who can take a shot. He is one of the worst fighters to ever come out of Team Quest, and Team Quest is full of rednecks from Gresham.
Hell, look at Ed Herman. He's about as redneck AND from Gresham as they get.
Every time I see him knock someone out, it reminds me of Jar Jar Binks popping the nose on the robot and it just closes up.
Ack...
That first fight tonight was brutal...busted nose bleeding everywhere...
Arlovski looked confident and solid...until Kharitonov caught him. oops...
Fedor was brutalized. Game over.
That first fight tonight was brutal...busted nose bleeding everywhere...
Arlovski looked confident and solid...until Kharitonov caught him. oops...
Fedor was brutalized. Game over.
I've been watching for a long time as well, I didn't say Randy was the greatest grappler of all time, just that most fans don't appreciate those types of fights and I do. Randy is not a submittal artist, never has been, never will be. But positioning, ground control, and controlling an oponent with his grappling/wrestling is still an art and still enjoyable to watch to me. You don't have to agree or enjoy it.
I've said it many times before, everyone (casual fans) just want the knockout, or the blood, or the lightning fast submission, I enjoy that too, but I have a LOT more patience for "grappling" matches that don't feature a lot of striking but feature a lot of positioning and strategy.
Randy is good, but he's another points fighter. Some of those non finishing MMA fighters need to quit trying to control the clock like football. People want to see fights finished. KO or Sub, people like both. Decisions suck, and Randy has a lot of those. I think he's got a fight coming up against Lyoto. Man, that's going to be boring as hell. Two points fighters trying to out score the other with a take down here, a hug there, a punch there, a kick here.
These guys are supposed to be the best in the world. They should be able to finish people from almost any position.
On another note, if Fedor is smart, he'll drop 20 and fight at 205 to get some wins under his belt again.
If Fedor is smart he'll retire. He'd be good at 205, but then everyone would say he ran away from the heavyweights where he fought for so long, he's got a VERY impressive record/career/resume, just walk away on top.
So, with your logic all college wrestlers are points wrestlers? Or it just so happens that when you get to that level and you are going against top talent its just that hard to finish someone off?
I disagree with your logic, I don't disagree that people want to see a finish (myself included) instead of a decision. But if you are the best, going against the best, a finish is not always gonna happen.
So, with your logic all college wrestlers are points wrestlers? Or it just so happens that when you get to that level and you are going against top talent its just that hard to finish someone off?
I disagree with your logic, I don't disagree that people want to see a finish (myself included) instead of a decision. But if you are the best, going against the best, a finish is not always gonna happen.
Guffaw...
By on top I meant still considered a decent fighter and not completely washed up.
I personally agree with whomever said he needs to drop to 205 if he wants to continue to fight, the game has changed.
But I also think if he were to call it quits right now he would still be remembered as one of the most dominant fighters in the game.
I personally agree with whomever said he needs to drop to 205 if he wants to continue to fight, the game has changed.
But I also think if he were to call it quits right now he would still be remembered as one of the most dominant fighters in the game.
I think he can easily drop to 185. He is 230 with quite a lot of fat. Considering many MW's walk at ~200-210lb he should be around that with less fat.
As for Fedor himself - he is not finished. Let's be honest his mistique is but I really hate that american way of thinking that came from boxxing that a single loss ruins your career. In pride it's your wins that count and how you fight, not looses.
Fedor still looked quite good in that fight. I agree he needs a lot of BJJ defence (being passed by someone who is much slower than you is really shamefull) but his striking is still very nice and there are very few fighters who can defend from someone like Silva in full mount. He did it quite well. The thing is that he may be mentaly prepared to retire - he talks about it much too often.
As for Arlovsky - he is done. Not only his chin cracks easier than stinkies from e-riding but his striking defence is insanely bad. You do not stand in a corner when someone like Sergiei stalks you and is trying to rip your head off.
That never moved to the UFC so he will also be considered to be "untested" by a whole big group of new bread fighters, too. Yes, I have seen him fight and he has had some great fights, but he also embodies the "old school" of MMA that some of the other guys (Chuck and Randy to name 2) were dominate at.
Could you see him drop to 205 and face Silva?
yes, college wrestlers are points wrestlers. That's why they have a ref in there calling out points every time someone makes a move or advances position. It's about controlling and maintaining position more than it's about finishing anything. I agree that matches in wrestling become more "equally matched", but that's because it's a one dimensional sport. They aren't punching, kicking, submitting, and wrestling. They're only doing one of those things when they're out there.
MMA isn't college wrestling. It's MMA. Those guys that can't finish should actually try becoming better since it's their career. It's ridiculous to see top fighters that can't finish or improve their skills.
Laying on people and holding them down while you're in their guard, not trying to advance position or work for a submission is boring fighting. Ask anybody. Even the other fighters take pride when they can say they're a "finisher".
It just gets old when you have guys that don't take chances anymore. They don't do what they did to get to that ranking in the first place.
Yeah his unwillingness to move to the UFC may hurt him a little in the eyes of many, but overall he beat all the top guys in his class for years. Either way, I agree with you. I think overall it would just be best for him to hang it up while he is still considered to be as good as he is.
I myself would hate to see him come to the UFC and get his ass handed to him by some of the lesser fighters, I'd rather just see him stop now while he is ahead. He aint getting any younger.
Wrestling is all about finishing, you win a match by PINNING your oponent.
Importance of finishing in a dual meet in high school or wrestling......
you get 6 points for your team if you win by fall (pin)
you get 3 if you win by points
you tell me, does that encourage finishing? You're damn right it does. When I walk into the wrestling room that I grew up in, and now coach my son in, the records on the walls are for wins, pins, fastest pins, most pins in a season, most pins at the state meet, etc.
One dimensional? You don't get points for controlling an oponent, you get 2 points for a take down, you get 1 point for an escape, and you get points for near fall, you don't get points laying and praying.
As you progress through the season in any sport, including wrestling, kickboxing, mma, boxing, you see less and less finishes as the better guys begin to go against each other, it's the nature of things.
Sure, a guy like couture probably mowed down wrestlers in high school, until he got to the state meet. he probably mowed most guys down in college until he faced another good wrestler.
I like to see the finishes, I like to see guys work for the finishes, but the better your oponent, the less opportunity you will have to finish him because he should make less mistakes and leave less openings for you.
#1 thing we teach our young wrestlers right now (I coach 5-12 yr olds). Don't get pinned, don't let the other wrestler finish you, many of them are too young to grasp the concept of finishing their oponent, so we teach them to not make the mistakes that will allow them to be finished. As they get older and grasp the concepts 8yrs+ on average, we teach them to look for the mistakes that will allow them to finish their opponent.
Anyway, I agree, I like to see the finishes, and I like to see guys work towards it, I just think at the higher levels its that much harder to finish guys all the time.
Not so much, but good theory.
So he didn't win a national title, but he was pretty damn good. He also coached at Oregon State before he opened Team Quest in Gresham.
I have a lot of respect for Couture, but I don't like lay and pray style.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? Are you saying couture never pinned anyone? What I am saying is that couture probably finished most average wrestlers but had difficulty finishing wrestlers of good skill similar to his.
I was on a team that was ranked 9th in the state, we had 3 or 4 guys make it to the state meet, and another 2 or 3 go to regionals, they pinned almost everyone they wrestled during the regular season except for some regional and state qualifying caliber wrestlers. When they got to regionals pins became more difficult, when they got to states pins were all but nonexistant.
Can you make All American without a single pin?
I'm not a wrasler, but I would think that it would take a lot more than lay and pray to make NCAA Div 1 All American 3 times. But again, I could be wrong I have NO idea what it takes to make All American, but I would think he was doing more than just going for points vs. pins as you brought up before.
Randy has a lot of pull in Oregon for what he did at OSU and with Team Quest, not to mention his own fighting league (my best friend is a judge for Sportfight and is also Chuck Liddell's cousin). He's a bad man, regardless of age.
if I am reading this correctly you agree with me 100%
yes, technically you could make all american with out a single pin, but laying and praying your way through the year is not gonna get you all american status just simply because you will get beat. Finish the guys off like randy most lilkely did and get off the mat before you get caught and pinned.
My point was that in high school you see most matches win by a pin, then when you get to states those pins (or finishes) are hard to come buy because the competition is just that good.
Same in college, less pins overall because most college wrestlers were pretty damned good high school wrestlers, thus its a lot harder to win with a pin and you usually win by points. Even MORE so when you get to the national championship tournaments, they rarely get pinned or even score many points because they are so evenly matched.
In MMA a skilled fighter may finish many of his early fights as he works his way up the ranks, but by the time you are randy couture and you are fighting the best of the best finishing guys is very difficult.
what it take stpo be all state in high school I believe is top 8 finish, 12 qualifiers usually go to states, not 100% sure, been a while would hav eto look it up.
As to all american wrestler for college.
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I see where you lost my point.
I said randy probablly mowed down your average wrestler and had trouble at the state meet or in his case college national tourney.
What I meant was he probably mowed down and finished (ie pinned) the average guy, and beat the good guy by points, thus not "finishing" him as leppah complained.
I said randy probablly mowed down your average wrestler and had trouble at the state meet or in his case college national tourney.
What I meant was he probably mowed down and finished (ie pinned) the average guy, and beat the good guy by points, thus not "finishing" him as leppah complained.
Fedor was sloooooooow.
He used to be lightning quick and accurate. Combining speed with precise technique won him fights. Now that he's getting older his speed is not there so his advantage against bigger stronger guys goes out the window. I doubt we will see any more big wins out of him.
He used to be lightning quick and accurate. Combining speed with precise technique won him fights. Now that he's getting older his speed is not there so his advantage against bigger stronger guys goes out the window. I doubt we will see any more big wins out of him.
When was his last big win before this fight?
Seems like a month ago everyone was like Fedor the great... and now that he got beat they are all saying he's over the hill, etc, etc.
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I just wish these guys would start MAKING opportunities happen in fights so they can finish. It's starting to get old with all of the fighters that don't even try to finish. They just wait around, then take a guy down at the end of the round to get points. Blah. I wish they'd all fight like BJ, Jon Jones, Maia, Diaz bros, Aldo, etc. Those are the guys that keep people watching.