[Heidi]

Spanish rider Roberto Heras, four-time winner of the Vuelta a Espana, has been suspended by his Liberty Seguros team following a non-negative A sample test for EPO from stage 20 of the the 2005 Vuelta.

The team's management company Active Bay suspended Heras on October 27, but did not announce the action while it awaited results of the counter-analysis of the B-sample, the team said in a statement. However, the team said a leak to the press had forced it to reveal the case.

The team said it believes Heras is innocent of the charges, but affirmed its dedication to the fight against doping.



I wouldn't be surprized if it was true.

 

[peter6061]

Holding out judgement until sample B is tested.

 

[MtnbikeMike]

I wouldn't be surprized if it was true.

As much as I hate to say it, they're very likely all doing it.

 

[sanjuro]

I hate to say this, but did he pick it up from his current team, or his old one...

 

[The Toninator]

As much as I hate to say it, they're very likely all doing it.

Uhhh yea me too but didnt he have a crappy tour? then all of a sudden he's back on top?
likely? no.

 

[OGRipper]

Holding out judgement until sample B is tested.

Me too. It doesn't make sense. He passed a bunch of tests during the race, it is the sample from the last time trial that came up positive. Going into the last time trial, he had over four minutes, all he had to do was stay upright. Why risk it at that point? Either he got away with it earlier or something is wrong. But we've heard that before.

 

[Wumpus]

I hate to say this, but did he pick it up from his current team, or his old one...

Wonder if Virenque and Pantani were hanging out in the Postal bus?

And what about these guys:

An historical perspective

A decision by the UCI to adopt the IOC's 2-year suspension rule for first offences would have radically changed the history of cycling had it been instituted many years ago. The UCI is currently still opposing the new rule to combat drugs in sport. But let's assume that the ban had been around for 30 years or so.

A notable case would be that of Eddy Merckx, who would have won two less Tours and one less Giro.

But there is more: Abraham Olano wouldn't have been World Champion, Sean Kelly wouldn't have won la Vuelta, and Angel Arroyo wouldn't have climbed the Tour podium.

Merckx, who abandoned the Giro in 1969 after testing positive, wouldn't have won the Tour that he won that year, the first of five and also the 1970 Tour. He would also have one less Giro, two Paris-Nice, one Paris-Roubaix, one Milano-San Remo. In addition, there is nothing to say that the long break from riding wouldn't have also diminished his ability once he returned.

Olano wouldn't be the same. It is difficult to know with Merckx, but Olano would probably have been affected by the enforced break. The Vasque tested positive for caffeine at the 1994 Tour of Catalonia and served a 3 month suspension. With a two years ban, he wouldn't have won the World Championship, the Olympic Silver medal, nor would he have finished second at la Vuelta, or third at the Giro. And therefore he wouldn't have signed a multi-million dollar contract with Banesto. Who could have filled Olano's shoes? Although we should mention that it would be very unlikely that caffeine, a stimulant that has also been detected in others like Bugno and Jiménez, would carry a two year suspension.

Sean Kelly, would still have a palmares of more than 100 victories, but with some 50 wins less than the 164 that he won in his career, since the Irish rider tested positive at the 1984 Paris-Brussels and at the 1988 Vuelta al País Vasco 88. This last one would have prevented him from winning la Vuelta a España and the World Cup.

Currently the sanctions for doping in cycling fluctuate between three months and one year, but in previous times the punishment was limited to a fine and 10 minutes of penalty. That's how things were in the 1980's. The 1982 Vuelta a España was a good example,. A new drug detection method caught en masse - Ángel Arroyo, Alberto Fernández, Vicente Belda and Pedro Muñoz. Curiously the first two had also tested positive at the same time at the 1979 Vuelta a Asturias. That Vuelta a España was a sad one for Arroyo, who was stripped of the final overall in favor of Marino Lejarreta and was relegated to 13th place. With a two year suspension, Arroyo wouldn't have won a Tour de France stage or placed second overall the next year, which he lost to Laurent Fignon.

Something similar happened to Alberto Fernández, who at la Vuelta a España went from 3rd to 15th in the overall. But the next year he would once again place third at La Vuelta and also at the Giro d'Italia.

Dutchman Gert Jan Theunisse, Pedro Delgado's rival at the 1988 Tour, tested positive for testosterone at that edition and the penalty relegated him to 11th position. It was this same year that Perico (Delgado's nickname) was accused of drug taking after testing positive for masking agents.

 

[sanjuro]

Wonder if Virenque and Pantani were hanging out in the Postal bus?

And what about these guys:

That is a very informative piece. I was going to write that everyone doped in that period, but there could have been racers which did not, and instead of wonderful careers, they rode cleanly to no palmares.

 

[sanjuro]

Wonder if Virenque and Pantani were hanging out in the Postal bus?

And what about these guys:

That is a very informative piece. I was going to write that everyone doped in that period, but there could have been racers which did not, and instead of wonderful careers, they rode cleanly but no palmares.

 

[Heath Sherratt]

Come on now, who thinks there are really clean athletes in contention in these pro tour races?

 

[sanjuro]

Come on now, who thinks there are really clean athletes in contention in these pro tour races?

Probably the bottom half of the pack, and I bet even some of them dope to keep up.

 

[Muuqi]

Heras confirmed positive. Bummer.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/nov05/nov25news2

 

[Zutroy]

As much as I'm of the opinion they are all taking something....this whole case seems messed up. Why would anyone who knows they are going to get tested take something they know will get caught in the test? Plus what was the whole delay in announcement cause of questionable reults on the first attempt to test the B sample really makes ya wonder.....who accredits these labs? What kinda audit system is there? Between this, the Tyler mess and all the CAS over turns on test lately...it really makes ya wonder what's going on.

 

[Muuqi]

It seems to me like Dick Pound (WADA president) has something out for cycling. Shouldn't they be conentrating testing on football player or baseballers? IMO steroids are more dangerous than a cyclist taking a physician prescripted dose of a blood cell booster ya know? EPO is legal (sort of), steroids are not. I personally do not see how taking EPO is any different than drinking 6 shots of espresso before a race.

 

[sanjuro]

It seems to me like Dick Pound (WADA president) has something out for cycling. Shouldn't they be conentrating testing on football player or baseballers? IMO steroids are more dangerous than a cyclist taking a physician prescripted dose of a blood cell booster ya know? EPO is legal (sort of), steroids are not. I personally do not see how taking EPO is any different than drinking 6 shots of espresso before a race.

1. WADA does not administer football or baseball. Otherwise, you would see half the teams flunk.

2. I don't see EPO any worse than drinking a glass of orange juice:

But EPO is really scary stuff. The hormone can over stimulate the production of red blood cells and make the blood dangerously thicker. This can increase the risk of blood clotting and death. For instance, several European cyclists mysteriously died (often at rest or while sleeping) between 1987 and 1990. Their deaths have been circumstantially connected to the use of EPO. The synthetic form of the drug first became available in Europe during this time period and was known to be used by some elite cyclists. It is believed that over the last decade other cyclists and endurance athletes have also fallen victim to EPO. Like blood doping, detecting its use is nearly impossible.

3. Really, the issue is not how dangerous performing enhancing drugs are, but who is and who isn't taking them. Jerome Chiotti, a middle-of-the-pack pro, won the World Championship over Thomas Frischknecht. Chiotti eventually forfeited the WC a few years later after his EPO usage came out, dening Frischknecht the personal and financial rewards of the wearing the rainbow jersey.

 

[Muuqi]

If EPO is really scary stuff then it would not be as common as it is. A friend of mine who works in a hospital sees it on a daily basis, and when it is administered by a doctor or physician who knows what they are doing and the risks to watch for, it is quite safe. Erythropoietin is used to help treat cancer patients and those who suffer from anemia, and how often do you hear about those people "mysteriously" dying? The fact is when it first came out, athletes did not know how to use it safely and wound up taking doses that were way too high and they also did not check their hematocrit level on a weekly basis, so of course their blood became dangerously thick. So if athletes were being given EPO by a physician or coach who knew what they were doing, then EPO could safely be used to increase one's endurance. The problem is that young riders who don't really have the expectations from sponsors on them that team leaders do decide that they want to try and give their performance an easy and quick boost. Aside from the fact that they don't even really need to prove anything or improve drastically, they don't know what they are doing and wind up taking more than anyone should, and that is why you hear about so many young riders dying in their sleep of heart failure.

 

[JRogers]

First off, this really stinks. I like Heras and he is a great rider. Whether he did it or not, I feel bad for him.

So, what is the test they use to look for EPO? I know a few years ago it was essentially hematocrit level or something like that; it was not a test for EPO itself. One could get a false positive if some care was not taken. Is the test the same? Did Heras have other tests done during the Vuelta? I mean, Heras' desfense makes some sense if he had other tests during or near the race and a false positive is possible- why would he take EPO right before an almost assured win in a major tour where he knew he would be tested? That would be plain stupid, not just immoral.

 

[Muuqi]

Yeah, it used to be that if you had a hematocrit level of 50 or higher, then they said you were using EPO. Now the new test, which I believe some French scientist created and patented, can supposedly differentiate between naturally occuring EPO and artificial EPO. "Supposedly" is the big word there, though. Dick Pound and the WADA stand behind the test and say that it is completely reliable, but many have said that it can be hard to tell the difference between natural and synthetic EPO. I don't really know what the labs to or how the differentiate. . .they just do somehow? Lol.

 

[sanjuro]

If EPO is really scary stuff then it would not be as common as it is. A friend of mine who works in a hospital sees it on a daily basis, and when it is administered by a doctor or physician who knows what they are doing and the risks to watch for, it is quite safe. Erythropoietin is used to help treat cancer patients and those who suffer from anemia, and how often do you hear about those people "mysteriously" dying? The fact is when it first came out, athletes did not know how to use it safely and wound up taking doses that were way too high and they also did not check their hematocrit level on a weekly basis, so of course their blood became dangerously thick. So if athletes were being given EPO by a physician or coach who knew what they were doing, then EPO could safely be used to increase one's endurance. The problem is that young riders who don't really have the expectations from sponsors on them that team leaders do decide that they want to try and give their performance an easy and quick boost. Aside from the fact that they don't even really need to prove anything or improve drastically, they don't know what they are doing and wind up taking more than anyone should, and that is why you hear about so many young riders dying in their sleep of heart failure.

1. Gasoline is widely used as well. I don't advise sniffing it, however.

There are many many drugs which have medicincial effects if prescribed properly. Anyone who has read Lance's autobio knows what EPO is supposed to be used for.

2. You sound like the muscle head with pimples on his arms who tells you juicing is the way to go. Yes, I know there have been no recent deaths because of EPO. You also have long term studies of the effects EPO has on the immune system, I assume.

 

[Wumpus]

Heras confirmed positive
Liberty Seguros rider Roberto Heras has been confirmed to have taken blood booster EPO to achieve his record-breaking fourth Vuelta a España victory this season. The counter-analysis of his returned positive A sample, taken on the penultimate stage of the Spanish Grand Tour on September 17, revealed the presence of the banned substance today.

This finding will most probably end the rider's career and strip him of his last Vuelta win, which will now be awarded to Rabobank's Denis Menchov. Heras will face a two-year suspension as well as immediate sacking from his team, whose future might now be compromised. The Spaniard has repeatedly denied having taken EPO to enhance his performance, and in light of recent statements from himself and his lawyer, an appeal against the decision seems likely.

Hours after the news broke, an official statement was released by Active Bay, Management Company of the Liberty Seguros-Würth team.

It read: "After receiving confirmation of his [Heras'] positive test in the counter-analysis, we regret to inform that as a result of the commitments pledged through the ethical code endorsed by all UCI-ProTour Teams, we will proceed to terminate the contract of Roberto Heras as soon as we receive an official confirmation from the International Cycling Union, following which the rider will step down from the team."

 

[Muuqi]

I've heard gasoline sniffing actually improves your performance by 4 to 7 %

 

[jaydee]

I've heard gasoline sniffing actually improves your performance by 4 to 7 %

Only if it's premium unleaded. And you have an aluminum head.

 

[Muuqi]

Hmm wonder what's gonna happen with the Liberty-Seguros team w/o Heras? Vino the new leader maybe??

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

They said they didn't plan on bringing in anybody to fill Heras' spot on the roster. I'm seeing that as cautious optimism from Liberty Seguros mgmt.
I still believe Heras didn't do it. I'm not saying that he wouldn't dope, but he surely wouldn't do that for a stage where he basically just had to stay upright and keep a respectable tempo for around an hour. As Spock would say, "that's not logical, Captain".

 

[Muuqi]

Yeah, seriously. I really hope he didn't, mainly just because he's like one of the last "greats" and it's too bad that all this bad publicity is going to soil his image. I'd cry if DiLuca, Vino, or Basso ever got caught doping.

 

[Reactor]

Wow, that's too bad. It seems unlikely he'd take EPO just before his big win...it doesn't make sense, especially with the other tests. I see three possibilities:

1. Heras is telling the truth and the test is flawed, which seems highly likely. WADA is seems to be pulling out all the stops and is probably willing to accept some false positives to prove the point that they are test, hard. A 'B' sample doesn't do much good if the test is flawed and reports a second positive. Hopefully they are smart enough to use an entirely different protocol on the second sample, but I doubt it. They seem more interested in headlines than fairness.

2. Heras is really smart and had some sort of masking agent, but it failed for some reason on this test.

3. Heras is an idiot.

 

[The Toninator]

They said they didn't plan on bringing in anybody to fill Heras' spot on the roster. I'm seeing that as cautious optimism from Liberty Seguros mgmt.
I still believe Heras didn't do it. I'm not saying that he wouldn't dope, but he surely wouldn't do that for a stage where he basically just had to stay upright and keep a respectable tempo for around an hour. As Spock would say, "that's not logical, Captain".

Winners are automatically tested.

 

[Muuqi]

WADA keeps assuring everyone that the test is legit, but if it is flawed, then of course WADA would not admit it because then they would be flooded with court cases from previously accused and convicted dopers. I'm hoping that it's flawed and they just don't want all the headaches of lawsuits.

 

[Reactor]

All laboratory drug tests carry at least a small possibility of false positives. For the sake of argument let's say it's 1%.

If you tested the top 5 in each stage at the TDF, that's more or less 20 tests * 20 days = 400 tests. Four will be positive even if everyone is clean. So they test the 'B' sample. If they from lab error, or cross contamination they will probably test clean, more or less a 4% chance of failure due to the chance of a second false positive.

But, If the test result is a "real" false positive, not a lab error, and you retest with the same protocol, you stand a good chance of having all four samples come back positive. If you use a different protocol you still have the chance of a false positive with the new protocol.

Back in the old days in the Navy, they started drug testing to get rid of all the dopers, arguing drugs are a potential safety issue when you handle bombs, guns, and thermonuclear warheads. In one case the Leading NCO on a Marine base was popped for heroin. He was a 4.0 Marine, and insisted all the way through his court-marshal that he never did drugs. He was given an Other Than Honorable discharge, fined, and spent time in the brig.

What's the point? About two years later, after a bunch of people had been discharged for alleged heroin use.....The Navy found out their test was detecting poppy seeds commonly found on buns, as well as heroin. The Marine NCO....turns out he loved poppy seed buns and beagles..was just about the only bread he ever ate.

 

[sanjuro]

All laboratory drug tests carry at least a small possibility of false positives. For the sake of argument let's say it's 1%.

If you tested the top 5 in each stage at the TDF, that's more or less 20 tests * 20 days = 400 tests. Four will be positive even if everyone is clean. So they test the 'B' sample. If they from lab error, or cross contamination they will probably test clean, more or less a 4% chance of failure due to the chance of a second false positive.

But, If the test result is a "real" false positive, not a lab error, and you retest with the same protocol, you stand a good chance of having all four samples come back positive. If you use a different protocol you still have the chance of a false positive with the new protocol.

Back in the old days in the Navy, they started drug testing to get rid of all the dopers, arguing drugs are a potential safety issue when you handle bombs, guns, and thermonuclear warheads. In one case the Leading NCO on a Marine base was popped for heroin. He was a 4.0 Marine, and insisted all the way through his court-marshal that he never did drugs. He was given an Other Than Honorable discharge, fined, and spent time in the brig.

What's the point? About two years later, after a bunch of people had been discharged for alleged heroin use.....The Navy found out their test was detecting poppy seeds commonly found on buns, as well as heroin. The Marine NCO....turns out he loved poppy seed buns and beagles..was just about the only bread he ever ate.

That assuming you think the testers not the cheaters have the advantage...

 

[Reactor]

That assuming you think the testers not the cheaters have the advantage...

Of course. If you believe otherwise there almost isn't a point to testing.

I said earlier it's possible(but unlikely) that Heras may have a masking agent of some type, and it failed this once. I'm an engineer, not an organic chemist so that's all speculation. Maybe he gives blood in the off season, has the epo extracted and stored and then uses it during the on season? I'm not even sure it's feasable, or maybe they found a way to make natural EPO somehow? I read in a journal about 15 years ago that an english firm was using sheep to manufacture pharmacuticals...They injected the mamary glands of fetus (I think) with the chemical they wanted and later when it was older the milk would contain a trace, but fairly significant amount of the chemical.

In the end all we can do is speculate, Heras is the only one who knows if he doped. If he did I hope they hang him out to dry. If he didn't I hope he finds a way to fight it. It almost seems like the atheletes should give a "c" and "d" sample for safe keeping just incase they need to appeal a false positive. But at that point it starts to get silly.