[Changleen]

A majority (looking for the numbers) of Americans still think Iraq aided al-Qaida before the war and had weapons of mass destruction.

... At least some of the people are the same people who say they have been 'closely following' events in Iraq. WTF?

"These findings come from polls by ABC-The Washington Post, The Associated Press-Ipsos, CNN-USA Today-Gallup and the Pew Research Center. The polls of about 1,000 adults each were taken in late February or early March and each has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points."

Slightly more encouraging though:

I also thought it was interesting that only 22% of Americans say they are 'closely following' events regarding North Korea.

 

[Changleen]

Grrrrr...

Ridiculous.

 

[axlvid23]

Grrrrr...

Ridiculous.

agreed....the fact that any percentage of the population thinks that...let alone the majority, makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[BSEVEER]

You're both going to hell. :evil:

 

[fluff]

Ah, but is it necessary to be moral to believe in God?

 

[Silver]

Ah, but is it necessary to be moral to believe in God?

That's also a no...

 

[Changleen]

I really hope that a good portion of those interviewed didn't think about the implications of their statement 'It is necassary to believe in god to be moral and have good values' or you're already well on the way to fascistville.

 

[ioscope]

Funny nobody ever asks where these stats come from.
Not to mention the fact that -I have never been surveyed about bush or anything of the sort.

 

[Changleen]

Funny nobody ever asks where these stats come from.
Not to mention the fact that -I have never been surveyed about bush or anything of the sort.

Don't worry too much this time, I think the Pew institute is pretty reputable. Here - check it out for yourself:

http://people-press.org/

and more specifically:

http://people-press.org/about/

 

[Silver]

Funny nobody ever asks where these stats come from.
Not to mention the fact that -I have never been surveyed about bush or anything of the sort.

They come from polls. You did read the first post?

 

[Silver]

I really hope that a good portion of those interviewed didn't think about the implications of their statement 'It is necassary to believe in god to be moral and have good values' or you're already well on the way to fascistville.

I prefer to think that we're half of the way away from theocracy...

 

[Changleen]

I prefer to think that we're half of the way away from theocracy...

The problem comes when despite the official seperation of church and state (long may it last) that your Pres. is religious, a majority of your elected representitives feel they are representing religious folk, (many are relgious themselves) and increasingly religious ideas define and describe your internal politics. Many of the recent 'issues' have been focussed on the struggle between Biblical and 'liberal' (to use a innaproprite but unfortuantly accepted descriptor) morals - e.g. right to die feeding tube lady, ten commandments in public buildings, gays being generally abused and so on. I really hope the US doesn't end up as a defacto theocracy, whatever it says on the label.

 

[-dustin]

it'd be nice to know the specifics of who/what/where the 1000 people were asked.

 

[Silver]

I really hope the US doesn't end up as a defacto theocracy, whatever it says on the label.

It won't. Because as much as we love God here...we love Mammon a hell of a lot more.

It'll always be about the money. Religion is just the lube that keeps the masses from making a lot of noise while they are being ****ed.

 

[Changleen]

it'd be nice to know the specifics of who/what/where the 1000 people were asked.

I think they often do link to a complete list of questions asked, but also:
http://people-press.org/reports/methodology.php3

 

[Changleen]

Also very interesting:

http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=104

 

[blue]

it'd be nice to know the specifics of who/what/where the 1000 people were asked.

Having worked at a telephone survey place before (Where most of these places get their data), I can tell you that most surveys are biased, and that most people that consistently respond to the surveys aren't what you would call a "typical person". Usually they're unbelieveably old, or disgustingly unintelligent (and usually don't understand the wording of questions in the first place), or there is a small chance they could be just bored.

Not many people want to listen to a teenager who can't get a better job read them seemingly redudant and confusing questions for 20 minutes. I always take these "polls" with a grain of salt.

Perhaps it's just my fleeting hope that America isn't as retarded as I think it is.

 

[Changleen]

most people that consistently respond to the surveys aren't what you would call a "typical person". Usually they're unbelieveably old, or disgustingly unintelligent (and usually don't understand the wording of questions in the first place), or there is a small chance they could be just bored.

I thought you said they weren't normal...

 

[Andyman_1970]

Religion is just the lube that keeps the masses from making a lot of noise while they are being ****ed.

So how exactly am I getting ****ed with respect to this statement?

 

[fluff]

So how exactly am I getting ****ed with respect to this statement?

We're all getting ****ed. I think tax-breaks and nebulous, ill-defined wars on such things as drugs and terror have superceded religion as the lube however.

 

[llkoolkeg]

It won't. Because as much as we love God here...we love Mammon a hell of a lot more.

It'll always be about the money. Religion is just the lube that keeps the masses from making a lot of noise while they are being ****ed.

The first statement, I'm alright with. The second, not so much. It is certainly convenient for the rabidly godless to think of religious people as stupid, homogenized sheep so drunk on the Lord that they are oblivious to their own fleecing, but it is not accurate or clever to say so. Even if they are just belief-fools easily parted from their money, better that than the egocentric miser who goes to his grave cluthing his last coin and prideful of his record of never having shared one.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

right to die feeding tube lady,

yo.. wait

i think everyone should have the right to die whenever they want.
But, the issue with the lady seems not to be her "right to die".. but the interpretation of her will... which, as far as i know, nobody is certain of.
and even the uncertainty might be extremely low (i dont think anybody would like to stay like that), the outcome, if the person deciding she wanted to be unplugged is wrong, is just too bad to justify any risk at all....

i cannot defend sombody else´s "right to choose", by making the choice for them.. you see the difference???

 

[$tinkle]

Ah, but is it necessary to be moral to believe in God?

good question for beelzebub

 

[fluff]

good question for beelzebub

I'll ask him when I get to his place.

 

[$tinkle]

Religion is just the lube that keeps the masses from making a lot of noise while they are being ****ed.

if you were to market that product, what would you call it?
have you worked out a jingle?

but seriously, please don't accidentally flip to benny hinn or robert tillman & lump us in w/ them.

they are kooks of the first order. same w/ that glass cathedral dude just down the steet from you.

 

[Westy]

Perhaps it's just my fleeting hope that America isn't as retarded as I think it is.

My vote is on retarded. It is not a matter of intelligence or ignorance but I think Americans have just become intellectually lazy. At a time when access to information is so easy the most accessed information is garbage. People just want easy answers to everything and polititians and companies are more than ready to provide it to them.

 

[Silver]

I need to update that: Religion is A lube. Along with Prozac, Cialis, and Congressional hearing on steroids in baseball.

 

[$tinkle]

i used to play a lot of gorgar back in the 80's; kinda looks like mammon, donchathink?

 

[Damn True]

I prefer to think that we're half of the way away from theocracy...

Go to Washington DC, read the walls of the Jefferson Memorial.

The intent is to provide the populace Freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

 

[Westy]

Go to Washington DC, read the walls of the Jefferson Memorial.

The intent is to provide the populace Freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

What about separation of church and state.

It doesn't really matter because I predict that in 2086 there will be a civil war in the US between Triclavianists and Antitriclavianists. The warring factions will kill each other off and the dominant surviving Christian religious groups in the US will be gay Christians and Jews for Jesus.

 

[Silver]

Go to Washington DC, read the walls of the Jefferson Memorial.

The intent is to provide the populace Freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion.

Here's a quick roundup of some Jefferson quotes on religion:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe!

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)

 

[RhinofromWA]

The problem comes when despite the official seperation of church and state (long may it last) that your Pres. is religious, a majority of your elected representitives feel they are representing religious folk, (many are relgious themselves) and increasingly religious ideas define and describe your internal politics. Many of the recent 'issues' have been focussed on the struggle between Biblical and 'liberal' (to use a innaproprite but unfortuantly accepted descriptor) morals - e.g. right to die feeding tube lady, ten commandments in public buildings, gays being generally abused and so on. I really hope the US doesn't end up as a defacto theocracy, whatever it says on the label.

Isn't the dire desire to negate any person of "faith" from government also a form of practicy the "opposite sides" belief system.

One side beleives that the other cannot make rational choices based on thier beliefs or lack there of (which is a system of belief all it's own really)

I find the side that denounces a religious man's ability to make a rational decision is just as faulty as the one he is afraid of. The means of how you come to your own moral code shouldn't be what is questioned. It is the moral code itself.

OK I may have lost everyone there but it made sense before I typed it. I jsut am not sure I was able to get my point across. I am not a heavily religious man, not by a long shot, but I also find it hypocritical for a non-religious man to discount a mans governing worth based alsomst soley on his faith.

OK I am going to quite while I am "looking up and seeing bubbles"

 

[Changleen]

Here's a quick roundup of some Jefferson quotes on religion:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

What is it men cannot be made to believe!

-Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, April 22, 1786. (on the British regarding America, but quoted here for its universal appeal.)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Excellent quotes. Standards have most assuredly slipped since this guy was President.

 

[Silver]

Excellent quotes. Standards have most assuredly slipped since this guy was President.

He wasn't perfect. A guy who works on the Declaration of Independence but still kept slaves...I'm not sure how he reconciled that to himself.

 

[$tinkle]

indeed.
william jefferson clinton knew at least not to screw the help.

 

[Changleen]

Isn't the dire desire to negate any person of "faith" from government also a form of practicy the "opposite sides" belief system.

The desire is subtly different from that which you ascribe to me - I do not seek the removal of people of faith, but to ensure that such faith does not guide their hand at the expense of rationality. Unfortunalty this is often the way these days.

One side beleives that the other cannot make rational choices based on thier beliefs or lack there of (which is a system of belief all it's own really)

As I said above, not quite.

I find the side that denounces a religious man's ability to make a rational decision is just as faulty as the one he is afraid of. The means of how you come to your own moral code shouldn't be what is questioned. It is the moral code itself.

Agreed. It is particularly pernicious however, when one appears to have no moral code other than the reflection of the interests and desires of those who keep you.

 

[Changleen]

He wasn't perfect. A guy who works on the Declaration of Independence but still kept slaves...I'm not sure how he reconciled that to himself.

We still think it's OK to rape the third world. It's not that different really. It's just remote slavery with good spin.

 

[RhinofromWA]

The desire is subtly different from that which you ascribe to me - I do not seek the removal of people of faith, but to ensure that such faith does not guide their hand at the expense of rationality. Unfortunalty this is often the way these days.

So it is only rational when it agrees with the appropriate conclusion/action you have carefully formulated within yourself.

How enlightened.

As I said above, not quite.Agreed. It is particularly pernicious however, when one appears to have no moral code other than the reflection of the interests and desires of those who keep you.

So peope have no moral code if it follows the group they belong to's beliefs.

Interesting.

People develope their moral code from their life experiences. That includes Faith or the rejection of faith. It is apart of everyone and who they are. People who don't claim to have faith as part of the developement of who they are just found it through a different mean. That doesn't make it better or worse, just different.

If faith is a part of that person, wanting them to mute that part of their life is no different than them wanting you to silence your objection to it.

 

[Westy]

He wasn't perfect. A guy who works on the Declaration of Independence but still kept slaves...I'm not sure how he reconciled that to himself.

Living a stones throw from Monticello I take family there to entertain them when they visit. Modern take is that he didn't like slavery but couldn't afford to free his slaves and was quite disturbed by it. It seems he had a thing for French wine and books, both very expensive in early America, and racked up heavy debts. I beleive the ended up selling his book collection to the gov. to pay debtors, that was the start of the Library of Congress. Jefferson freed many of his slaves and treated the rest fairly well.

 

[Changleen]

So it is only rational when it agrees with the appropriate conclusion/action you have carefully formulated within yourself.
How enlightened.

No, it is only rational when it is thought through rationaly. Again, subtly different.

So peope have no moral code if it follows the group they belong to's beliefs. Interesting.

No, that's not what I said. Read it again. Sheesh. I think I'll go back to being blunt. It's less typing.

People develope their moral code from their life experiences. That includes Faith or the rejection of faith. It is apart of everyone and who they are. People who don't claim to have faith as part of the developement of who they are just found it through a different mean. That doesn't make it better or worse, just different.

If faith is a part of that person, wanting them to mute that part of their life is no different than them wanting you to silence your objection to it.

The thing about faith is that it is 'faith'. It is inherently irrational. When someone's deepest beliefs are based on faith, then there comes a point where rational discourse is impossible to persue. When these 'faith based' beliefs happen to intersect with the creation of laws which will apply to those who do not subscribe to that faith, I have a problem.

You can take your irrational laws and stick them up your g-ds arse.