[MudGrrl]

Cleric 'meat' remarks spark fury

SYDNEY, Australia (AP) -- One of Australia's senior-most Islamic clerics has triggered outrage after comments reported Thursday comparing women who do not wear a headscarf to "uncovered meat" who invite rape.

Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali denied he was condoning rape when he made the comments in a sermon last month, and said Australian women were free to dress as they wished.

Other Muslim leaders, Australia's sex discrimination commissioner and political leaders condemned the comments.

Hilali was quoted in the Australian newspaper as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's," Hilali was quoted as saying in The Australian.

"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he was quoted as saying, referring to the headdress worn by some Muslim women.

OMGF and I just read something in the Washington Post on two different views of the hijab/ burka (yes, I know they're not the same).

How I came to Love the Veil

I kept my word about studying Islam -- and was amazed by what I discovered. I'd been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women. Two-and-a-half years after my capture, I converted to Islam, provoking a mixture of astonishment, disappointment and encouragement among friends and relatives.

Clothes aren't the Issue

MORGANTOWN, W.Va. When dealing with a "disobedient wife," a Muslim man has a number of options. First, he should remind her of "the importance of following the instructions of the husband in Islam." If that doesn't work, he can "leave the wife's bed." Finally, he may "beat" her, though it must be without "hurting, breaking a bone, leaving blue or black marks on the body and avoiding hitting the face, at any cost."

Such appalling recommendations, drawn from the book "Woman in the Shade of Islam" by Saudi scholar Abdul Rahman al-Sheha, are inspired by as authoritative a source as any Muslim could hope to find: a literal reading of the 34th verse of the fourth chapter of the Koran, An-Nisa , or Women. "[A]nd (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them," reads one widely accepted translation.

The notion of using physical punishment as a "disciplinary action," as Sheha suggests, especially for "controlling or mastering women" or others who "enjoy being beaten," is common throughout the Muslim world. Indeed, I first encountered Sheha's work at my Morgantown mosque, where a Muslim student group handed it out to male worshipers after Friday prayers one day a few years ago.

I have come to the conclusion that the burqa/ hijab.....whatever is mandatory to wear is NOT a form of liberation. I think it's a sick way of controlling women. If they were so concerned about covering their bodies... why not go with what a lot of women go for? Sweat pants. They're comfortable, cover you up, and they're definitely not a fashion statement advertising your assets.

Anyone have any input on this?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Hilali was quoted in the Australian newspaper as saying in the sermon: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside ... without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's," Hilali was quoted as saying in The Australian.

So, he's accusing Muslim women of beastiality?

 

[valve bouncer]

I remember in London when i was with Partsy we went into this Lebanese restaurant (outstanding food) and there was a women in the full get up, eyes only visible, sitting by herself at a table. We needed an extra chair and she said we could take one of the chairs from her table. Then I asked if I could borrow her lighter that was on the table and she said "sure" and handed it to me. Her head covering thingie was beautiful lace and threaded with gold, first time I'd seen one up close. She was hot too, if the eyes were any guide. Anyway it seemed obvious to me that she wasn't being locked up and kept away from "foreign" influences and didn't seem to have any problems going out by herself and interacting with strange men in the sense of everyday social situations. So I'm sure for some women it's something they have no trouble doing, want to do it and feel comfortable that way.
I'm sure though, others feel different when they wear it and it's used as a form of control.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

I remember in London when i was with Partsy we went into this Lebanese restaurant (outstanding food) and there was a women in the full get up, eyes only visible, sitting by herself at a table. We needed an extra chair and she said we could take one of the chairs from her table. Then I asked if I could borrow her lighter that was on the table and she said "sure" and handed it to me. Her head covering thingie was beautiful lace and threaded with gold, first time I'd seen one up close. She was hot too, if the eyes were any guide. Anyway it seemed obvious to me that she wasn't being locked up and kept away from "foreign" influences and didn't seem to have any problems going out by herself and interacting with strange men in the sense of everyday social situations. So I'm sure for some women it's something they have no trouble doing, want to do it and feel comfortable that way.
I'm sure though, others feel different when they wear it and it's used as a form of control.

I would disagree. It is used as a form of control in all cases. True, the one woman you met could interact with you in a social setting, but that's not the point. The point is that the burka/hajib is basically a punishment inflicted on women for what Islam deems is man's failings. Men can't control themselves, so women must bear the burden of that and cover themselves. It's a form of control, and whether a woman has some ability to interact or not (as in the case you cited) she is still under some form of control and therefore not free.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

So, he's accusing Muslim women of beastiality?

worse than that!
the issue here is not women elementary rights and individual freedom and petty things like that.

its islam suggesting men are cats, or animals!

 

[Old Man G Funk]

worse than that!
the issue here is not women elementary rights and individual freedom and petty things like that.

its islam suggesting men are cats, or animals!

Yeah. He just said all Muslim men are pvssies.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I would disagree. It is used as a form of control in all cases. True, the one woman you met could interact with you in a social setting, but that's not the point. The point is that the burka/hajib is basically a punishment inflicted on women for what Islam deems is man's failings. Men can't control themselves, so women must bear the burden of that and cover themselves. It's a form of control, and whether a woman has some ability to interact or not (as in the case you cited) she is still under some form of control and therefore not free.

Well if you're going that direction, clothing in general is a form of control.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Well if you're going that direction, clothing in general is a form of control.

given that most of us arent calvin klein models, i´d say its more a form of politeness.
imagine old balls dangling as far as the eye can see. that wouldnt be nice.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Well if you're going that direction, clothing in general is a form of control.

It is a form of control (as well as a way of protecting our fragile selves from the elements.) It is one that we impose - for the most part - on both sexes, however. The burka is solely an imposition on women.

 

[valve bouncer]

It is a form of control (as well as a way of protecting our fragile selves from the elements.) It is one that we impose - for the most part - on both sexes, however. The burka is solely an imposition on women.

How about make-up then?

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

How about make-up then?

wouldnt the male equivalent be buldging muscles? or trimmed beards?

the problem isnt if people want to use them, but if certain garments are imposed on certain members of a society as a result of an ochlocratic decision.

 

[BurlyShirley]

wouldnt the male equivalent be buldging muscles? or trimmed beards?

the problem isnt if people want to use them, but if certain garments are imposed on certain members of a society as a result of an ochlocratic decision.

So that female breasts must be covered in the US is a form of "control?" I wish they didnt have to be.

 

[BurlyShirley]

wouldnt the male equivalent be buldging muscles? or trimmed beards?

Just so you know, bears are OUT...but then again, so are Rollerblades.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

So that female breasts must be covered in the US is a form of "control?" I wish they didnt have to be.

I believe that in some states (I think NY is one) women are allowed to be topless in public.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I believe that in some states (I think NY is one) women are allowed to be topless in public.

Amazing that some of them choose to wear tops out of respect for culture tho, isnt it? No wait, they're just being controlled. ALL OF THEM.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

wouldnt the male equivalent be buldging muscles? or trimmed beards?

the problem isnt if people want to use them, but if certain garments are imposed on certain members of a society as a result of an ochlocratic decision.

Agreed.

Cosmetic social norms like make-up, trimmed beards, trimmed nails, etc. are chosen. One may or may not choose to shave or trim one's nails, etc. The burka is imposed.

 

[valve bouncer]

wouldnt the male equivalent be buldging muscles? or trimmed beards?

the problem isnt if people want to use them, but if certain garments are imposed on certain members of a society as a result of an ochlocratic decision.

Boob job and a perm, make a real point.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Amazing that some of them choose to wear tops out of respect for culture tho, isnt it? No wait, they're just being controlled. ALL OF THEM.

I would say that most people don't walk around naked because we have been culturally conditioned to accept the control of clothing. Most of us have been raised in the religious mindset of being ashamed of our nakedness where clothing is a natural thing to hide ourselves from others.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Boob job and a perm, make a real point.

Who is forcing women to get boob jobs and perms?

 

[Westy]

All women should be forced to wear catholic school girl uniforms.

 

[Westy]

So that female breasts must be covered in the US is a form of "control?" I wish they didnt have to be.

There are places where women can go topless. I know when I lived in NY a lawsuit forced the state to allow toplessnessitude at all state parks.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

There are places where woman can go topless. I know when I lived in NY a lawsuit forced the stat to allow toplessness at all state parks.

Thanks for the confirmation. I was pretty sure NY allowed it.

 

[valve bouncer]

Who is forcing women to get boob jobs and perms?

Who's forcing men to get bulging muscles or trim their beards?
I've already conceded that some women are forced to wear the head garments. I don't think that's right. Is it really that much of a stretch though to believe that "some" women don't have a problem wearing one?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Who's forcing men to get bulging muscles or trim their beards?
I've already conceded that some women are forced to wear the head garments. I don't think that's right. Is it really that much of a stretch though to believe that "some" women don't have a problem wearing one?

I know that some women say they don't have a problem with wearing it. I still don't think it makes it right. These women are being told that they have to wear this, whether they are OK with it or not. If there were no rules saying that they had to be covered and some women thought it just made for a smart fashion statement, then so be it, but that's not the case. Whether a woman accepts the imposition of bondage or not, it is still bondage and still imposed.

 

[BurlyShirley]

I know that some women say they don't have a problem with wearing it. I still don't think it makes it right. These women are being told that they have to wear this, whether they are OK with it or not. If there were no rules saying that they had to be covered and some women thought it just made for a smart fashion statement, then so be it, but that's not the case. Whether a woman accepts the imposition of bondage or not, it is still bondage and still imposed.

Do you have a problem with wearing pants?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Do you have a problem with wearing pants?

Sometimes, yes. Do you have a point that I haven't already addressed above?

 

[BurlyShirley]

Sometimes, yes. Do you have a point that I haven't already addressed above?

As long as you keep missing it completely, I'll keep restating it, thanks. Different cultures do different things. Again, Im not saying that some of them dont dislike it, but look at all the headpieces and crap the males wear. Is that control too? You could say the same about any article of clothing from any culture but you've chose (yet again) some anti religious stance and refuse to budge.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

As long as you keep missing it completely, I'll keep restating it, thanks. Different cultures do different things. Again, Im not saying that some of them dont dislike it, but look at all the headpieces and crap the males wear. Is that control too? You could say the same about any article of clothing from any culture but you've chose (yet again) some anti religious stance and refuse to budge.

What the hell are you talking about? The burka/hajib is mandated by their religion! Of course it is a religious question.

As for our cultural sensibilities, if you don't think our particular culture was shaped by our predecessors' religious sensibilities then I have to wonder what planet you are from.

 

[BurlyShirley]

What the hell are you talking about? The burka/hajib is mandated by their religion! Of course it is a religious question.

As for our cultural sensibilities, if you don't think our particular culture was shaped by our predecessors' religious sensibilities then I have to wonder what planet you are from.

Just about any culture/religion on the planet, minus ONLY the most primitive, expect that clothing is worn. The amount and style of vary greatly. Why you single out the Burka vs. African Neck Rings, Amazon lip piercings with huge wooden sticks and other oddities is an indictment of your distaste for organized religion and nothing more. EVERY culture subscribes to norms dictated by its ancestry. EVERY ONE.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Just about any culture/religion on the planet, minus ONLY the most primitive, expect that clothing is worn. The amount and style of vary greatly. Why you single out the Burka vs. African Neck Rings, Amazon lip piercings with huge wooden sticks and other oddities is an indictment of your distaste for organized religion and nothing more. EVERY culture subscribes to norms dictated by its ancestry. EVERY ONE.

Dumba$$, I singled out the Burka because that's what the article was about. Duh.

I also explained about the cultural norms and if you were paying attention to my posts you would see that I addressed that already. Hence my question about whether you were getting at something I had already addressed or not.

I now will ask you if you can cite some examples of cultural norms where these kinds of things are mandated that are not examples of hand-me-down morality from a religion, however. My distaste for religion does not discredit my argument. Besides the logical fallacy in that, there is a bigger fallacy you are using here. If our cultural norms that dictate modesty are religiously derived, then you can't point to those same norms that I accept as somehow showing that I don't accept anything religious. Duh.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

Boob job and a perm, make a real point.

my point was to counter the fact you cited aesthetics standards (make up, boobjobs and perms), which are not in the same ballgame.

aesthetics standards arent directly regulated or enforced by the state upon an specific group.
now, imagine if certain, say asian aesthetic standard, was pushed by the state upon hispanics. that´d be a more fitting analogy. but aesthetics standards per se, as of today, arent.

 

[valve bouncer]

What the hell are you talking about? The burka/hajib is mandated by their religion! Of course it is a religious question.

Yet not every Muslim woman wears one. Muslims aren't meant to drink either but I've met more than a few who do.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Dumba$$, I singled out the Burka because that's what the article was about. Duh.

Wow, you're a real genius. I was talking about your posting of the article on down there fella. Good try.

I also explained about the cultural norms and if you were paying attention to my posts you would see that I addressed that already. Hence my question about whether you were getting at something I had already addressed or not.

You pretend to adress things by simply writing them off as "religious mumbo jumbo" in every argument. Nothing's changed here.

I now will ask you if you can cite some examples of cultural norms where these kinds of things are mandated that are not examples of hand-me-down morality from a religion, however. My distaste for religion does not discredit my argument. Besides the logical fallacy in that, there is a bigger fallacy you are using here. If our cultural norms that dictate modesty are religiously derived, then you can't point to those same norms that I accept as somehow showing that I don't accept anything religious. Duh.

I never denied that religion dictated culture in these cases in the first place. What Im saying is that its progressed into a cultural norm. Its not "control" for you to wear pants. You just do it because its what you're expected to do in a civilized society. ANY civilized society of ANY religion except the most primitve which still usually have some sort of covering REGARDLESS of WHICH religion.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Yet not every Muslim woman wears one. Muslims aren't meant to drink either but I've met more than a few who do.

And all the women of Saudi Arabia must have chosen to wear it? Like I said, whether some women submit to imposed bondage or not, it is still bondage and still imposed. Drinking is at least imposed on both men and women and not misogynistically based.

 

[valve bouncer]

And all the women of Saudi Arabia must have chosen to wear it? Like I said, whether some women submit to imposed bondage or not, it is still bondage and still imposed. Drinking is at least imposed on both men and women and not misogynistically based.

PAY ATTENTION. Where it's forced it's bad, i.e SA. I've said that already. I don't believe it's always forced, however. You obviously do. Fair enough good luck to you.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Wow, you're a real genius. I was talking about your posting of the article on down there fella. Good try.

And you are so much of a genius that you can't write in complete sentences. Once you write something that is legible, I will resond.

You pretend to adress things by simply writing them off as "religious mumbo jumbo" in every argument. Nothing's changed here.

Your over-simplification is typical and I've come to expect nothing less from you.

I never denied that religion dictated culture in these cases in the first place. What Im saying is that its progressed into a cultural norm. Its not "control" for you to wear pants. You just do it because its what you're expected to do in a civilized society. ANY civilized society of ANY religion except the most primitve which still usually have some sort of covering REGARDLESS of WHICH religion.

No, actually it is control. Whether it is by cultural norm or by religious fiat, we are still controlled to some extent. When that control is assymetrical, like in the case of the burka, then we definitely have problems. In other cases, it's a toss up. Do I care about wearing pants? Like I said, I sometimes do. When it's cold out, I don't care so much because pants protect me from the cold. When it's really hot out, you better believe I care, because pants actually make it worse for me and I'm only wearing them because my society, culture, and the business world have institutional control over me. If I come to work wearing shorts or boxers or nothing at all, I run the risk of having my employment terminated or worse, so I find myself submitting to that control. At least I can't claim that it is born of misogyny, however, in that women are similarly forced to wear clothing that covers them in a similar manner (although there is certainly an issue with women wearing skirts while men can not.)

 

[valve bouncer]

my point was to counter the fact you cited aesthetics standards (make up, boobjobs and perms), which are not in the same ballgame.

aesthetics standards arent directly regulated or enforced by the state upon an specific group.
now, imagine if certain, say asian aesthetic standard, was pushed by the state upon hispanics. that´d be a more fitting analogy. but aesthetics standards per se, as of today, arent.

Try reading the posts instead of thinking of the next thing you're gonna say. Again, for those in the cheap seats/up the back/hard of hearing/semi retarded- if it's forced it's wrong. I don't believe it's always forced. MG asked for input, I passed on a personal anecdote.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

PAY ATTENTION. Where it's forced it's bad, i.e SA. I've said that already. I don't believe it's always forced, however. You obviously do. Fair enough good luck to you.

No, I got you loud and clear. You don't believe it should be forced. What I'm saying is that it is forced in probably every case. The women who choose it are doing it because they want to adhere to a religion that forces it upon them. The reason they choose the religion is because it is imposed on them by their society/culture.

 

[valve bouncer]

No, I got you loud and clear. You don't believe it should be forced. What I'm saying is that it is forced in probably every case. The women who choose it are doing it because they want to adhere to a religion that forces it upon them. The reason they choose the religion is because it is imposed on them by their society/culture.

I understand your point. Don't agree with it. Fair enough?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Try reading the posts instead of thinking of the next thing you're gonna say. Again, for those in the cheap seats/up the back/hard of hearing/semi retarded- if it's forced it's wrong. I don't believe it's always forced. MG asked for input, I passed on a personal anecdote.

Let's all take a breath here. The post that Alexis first answered didn't make it clear what you were getting at and I thought his response was appropriate. I had the same response. The reason is that it's an argument that is often brought up; that women are "forced" to wear make-up, so how is that any different from wearing a burka. Hopefully you can understand how both of us might have knee-jerked into thinking that might have been what you were getting at.