[Evil Sylvain]

How exactly does a democratic socialist state become a dictatorship? I suppose a good chunk of western Europe (socialist by US standards) is headed for dictatorship?

Yes.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115736/Sin-bins-for-worst-families

The Children’s Secretary set out £400million plans to put 20,000 problem families under 24-hour CCTV super-vision in their own homes.

I would also add that the more taxed you are, that is, the more money the state takes from you to do as it see fit according to the different interest groups the less free as an individual you are. Pushing that to an extreme if 100% of your income is taxed then you do not decide anymore what you consume but a bureaucrat will do it for you instead.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Yes.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115736/Sin-bins-for-worst-families



I would also add that the more taxed you are, that is, the more money the state takes from you to do as it see fit according to the different interest groups the less free as an individual you are. Pushing that to an extreme if 100% of your income is taxed then you do not decide anymore what you consume but a bureaucrat will do it for you instead.

I cant help but notice that most of those countries with the highest tax rates also happen to be the happiest. Maybe its because these are the countries that have nationwide health care, decent public transit, and college that is paid for by the state.

 

[Evil Sylvain]

I cant help but notice that most of those countries with the highest tax rates also happen to be the happiest. Maybe its because these are the countries that have nationwide health care, decent public transit, and college that is paid for by the state.

...paid for by the tax payers would be more accurate.

But yes, it's a good observation. I've been to many of those countries. My overall impression is indeed that people are happy. I also like going to Europe. Pretty much wherever you go it's easy to find very good small restaurants. And wine is cheaper than here (one of the few things that is). That makes me happy too.

I guess the impression that living in a more egalitarian society makes people happy. I would also suggest that the socialist state has been present in Europe for longer than in North America. Therefore all the economic fallacies that come with it are accepted as truth. The sentiment is the same in Quebec. Despite, for example, waiting for hours at the emergency, despite waiting for months to get treatments like cancer treatment (some patients have been sent to the US across the border) or just physiotherapy, despite the roads being in extremely bad conditions and despite them criticizing the school system people will say they are happy. Actually most of the time the answer is more in the vein that they are happier than... in the US.

And if services you listed, and others, are covered by the state then it becomes less of a worry as one does not have to find his own insurance, put money aside oneself for the children's school, take public transit because they are so heavily taxed they can't afford a car and live near their job, etc... But all this is can be done without state intervention that is necessarily less efficient. If the state takes on dollar it does not give back one dollar to the community. It gives less because it has to cover the bureaucracy involved in taking from Joe and giving to Paul.

So happiness does not imply, in my opinion, that a more socialist state is working.

But maybe in the end people are happy with restricted personal freedom?

 

[kidwoo]

So happiness does not imply, in my opinion, that a more socialist state is working.

What does life expectancy, child mortality, and no fear of financial ruin due to an illness do for ya then.

But maybe in the end people are happy with restricted personal freedom?

Yeah that's it. Definitely.

Then again maybe americans are just dumbfvcks who believe beneficial infrastructure is taking away freedom™

 

[Evil Sylvain]

What does life expectancy, child mortality, and no fear of financial ruin due to an illness do for ya then.

What you are saying is that those statistics prove that a socialist state is working? Maybe it's the obvious answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_Social_Class
How would socialized medicine reduce that? Even if they now have access to health care (that's still debatable) they won't be any richer and won't eat any better. And illegal immigrants will remain illegal immigrants without legal access to the system unless they crawl into an emergency room no?

Yeah that's it. Definitely.

You'd be surprised. How much of your income are you ready to give in order to help your fellow citizens?

Then again maybe americans are just dumbfvcks who believe beneficial infrastructure is taking away freedom™

Why don't you come in Quebec and see for yourself the beneficial infrastructure that does not work? I've been through it and friends have been through it. I can assure you I am glad that for minor ailments I can go to a private clinic. Because I know I will wait less than 1 hour to see a doctor instead of spending 9 hours waiting in the hall of an emergency room.

When I broke an ankle I went to the beneficial infrastructure near home. Despite having a cast on my leg I had to carry the X-ray from the x-ray department to bring it to the orthopedist. For some reasons I would expect that in the third millennium socialized hospital would use some electronic means to send an X-ray from one end of the building to the other. Wouldn't you? This is what my dentist is doing after all. But it's true that dental care is private here while health care is not.

In another thread I have already given the example of the Singapore health system as an example.
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2008/01/singapores_heal.html
The government is still involved but this system makes sure people are putting aside money for themselves for medical bills. I hugely prefer that to give away money to the government that will be diverted each time special interest groups cry loud enough.

 

[kidwoo]

I had to carry the X-ray from the x-ray department to bring it to the orthopedist.

I think I've had to do that with every bone I've ever broken
(and that's not a low number incidentally)

What you are saying is that those statistics prove that a socialist state is working?

No that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are certain arenas where it's okay to implement a socialized structure when it benefits the population as a whole. Our military does this. Our current healt hcare setup does the exact opposite. That doesn't mean the government needs to run wal mart. Shades of grey man. We're capable of addressing them.

It has nothing to do with taking away personal freedoms and everything to do with government stepping in when the all holy capitalist private sector kills people for profit, by providing a service they were paid to provide. Why the government? Because no one else can. Like other countries, this is one arena where for profit status has a direct effect on people's lives. We love jesus here, so why not be nice like the good man said?

I hear you on your gripes in quebec. My only interaction with canadian health care have been:

1: I blacked out and went into a seizure after taking something handed to me as ecstacy, went to the nearest doctor's office, he checked me out, said I looked fine and then we discussed drug use. No charge, no penalty, just some crazy contrast to what goes on here. (Victoria, Vancouver Island btw)

2: Torn hamstring in whistler. Cute nurses, cute doctors, bill sent to my insurance company in the states (which is completely reasonable since I don't think my sales tax in canada covered the cost of the visit).


Maybe it really is just quebec. I don't know. But one failure and a crappy execution damns not the entire concept. Know what I mean? It really does suck here in the states, and the treatment you get when something catastrophic happens is about as predictable as a gnat's path in a hurricane. All it takes is a board meeting and then you don't deserve the coverage you've paid for.

How much of your income are you ready to give in order to help your fellow citizens?

Once I get uncle sam's mouth off lockheed and martin's dick, I figure the number needn't be too different from what I already give.

We already have full blown socialism for every shlt hole town that makes a sticker for a fighter jet. A simple priority shift is all we need.

 

[ohio]

For some reasons I would expect that in the third millennium socialized hospital would use some electronic means to send an X-ray from one end of the building to the other. Wouldn't you?

I got news for you: you have to do the same in most hospitals in the US private or public.

Socialist systems don't do it because they're starved for cash so can't make the capital expenditure even though it would save them money in the long run. Private systems don't do it, because going to electronic records makes switching much easier for patients, so they treat patient records like intellectual property and do everything they can to keep control out of the patient's hands.

Pick your poison. I prefer the one that doesn't retroactively saddle me in 1000s of dollars of debt, because they're for-profit and figured out the system is buy first and price later.

 

[Silver]

That's funny. I live in California, and I have what people would consider good insurance. It's an HMO plan, no lifetime caps, yadda yadda yadda. Broke my toe a month ago, not a simple fracture. I had to carry my own xrays around in a big manilla envelope as well.

Last time I checked, my taxes in Alberta (where I'm from) would be lower than they are in California where I live. Add in that ~$850 a month that goes to the insurance company and the various copays which go up every year and I'd be better off financially in Alberta, not to mention that I wouldn't have to worry about my coverage getting cancelled if I get something really serious and it's cheaper to pay the lawyer than the hospital bill...

 

[DirtyDog]

The guy isn't nearly as far left as you think he is, and compared with most other world leaders, is actually really moderate.

Actually a distinctly centrist president. Other than a pretty half assed assault on the health insurance scam, he's pretty unremarkable. Rightys should be pretty stoked about how centrist he is - except for that darn race thing.

 

[stevew]

i miss working at the vet clinic and shooting my own xrays.

 

[kidwoo]

Broke my toe a month ago, not a simple fracture. I had to carry my own xrays around in a big manilla envelope as well.

Did you wear the ass gown?

 

[Silver]

Did you wear the ass gown?

It's my favorite outfit. It doesn't trap farts.

 

[kidwoo]

And how brother.


Linoleum lined, echo prone hallways and that git up just can't be a coincidence.

 

[dante]

Mean tax rate or mean taxes PAID? Between off-shore accounts and subsidiaries, exemptions, non-profits and ESOPs, I'd be shocked if our average tax rate that was paid was anywhere close to that...

 

[Pesqueeb]

And how brother.


Linoleum lined, echo prone hallways and that git up just can't be a coincidence.

must.

spread.

Rep.

 

[Westy]

When I broke my finger they were able to electronically transfer my x-rays, that is until they lost them and I had to get them taken again. My insurance was billed for two x-ray sessions.

 

[kidwoo]

When I broke my finger they were able to electronically transfer my x-rays, that is until they lost them and I had to get them taken again. My insurance was billed for two x-ray sessions.

In socialist quebec, x-ray take vous.

 

[DaveW]

In socialist quebec, x-ray take vous.

lol Kidwoo for teh win!