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Unified component standards!!!

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
I am not going to complain and ask why the bicycle industry does not embrace unified standards for commonly purchased parts. I understand the perceived need for 1.5" headsets. I know that different suspension designs are easier to package with different length shocks. I am not confused as to why manufacturers offer something newer, different, and possibly better than their competitors. However, as a consumer, I think there has been too little action taken by the bicycle purchasing public to reduce the disintegration of parts standards.

To keep things simple, I will focus on two components that are frequently built to different specifications on different bicycle frames: seat tubes and rear axles.

Different sizes of aluminum, steel, and carbon have been used for seat tubes on different frames throughout the history of the sport as we know it. However, not enough has been done to consolidate what is now a vast array of standards. This proliferation costs the consumer in more ways than you might initially think.

First, the obvious. If you buy a new frame, you will likely need to buy a new seatpost. If not that, you will need to buy a shim to properly insert your current seatpost in your new frame. Using a shim adds weight, can weaken the overall interface and costs you. You will probably have to order this item, and that means more time off the bike. My guess is that the majority of bikes sold in America, and the world are ridden with their original seatpost (possibly in its original position) until they are lost, stolen, or discarded. It is only in the high-end market that seatposts are swapped, sold, changed and broken. If the post breaks on your $79 bike, it is unlikely that you will replace it with an aftermarket model of the same dollar value.

Besides the obvious financial cost to the consumer, there is the cost in that you are not getting the best product. Why? Because no small-time component manufacturer is going to invest the research and development spending in a product of which they only produce a small number. For a given brand and model, each post size demands different engineering and specific testing. Ex. a 27.2mm OD Thomson Elite has different stiffness to weight than another Thomson Elite in 31.6mm. Theoretically, the manufacturer would have to optimize and test every size shaft, as well as their overall material analysis and their head clamp design. This seems like an unecessary headache to me, especially as there is no clear differentiation for posts. It's not as though road bikes all use thinner or thicker posts than MTB, or that DH bikes use fatter posts than XC bikes.

You'd think that material and frame design would dictate post size, with steel frames (that generally use thinner tubes) using the smaller posts. However, steel tubes of a smaller OD also have thinner walls, and therefore use a similar sized post. There isn't even necessarily continuity within the same brand!

For a given application (or range of applications) there is usually one or a small number of very similar designs that provide the most efficient structural benefit. Many bicycle-part sizes are arbitrary legacy items from past generations and different materials. Who knows? Maybe 40mm is a better size for a seatpost.

What are the specific concerns and demands placed on a seatpost (ignoring proprietary clamping designs and methods of fastening the head to the shaft)?

Rigidity--a seatpost needs to be stiff enough not to flex when you sit or fall on it

Strength--torsional, compressive, tensile...etc. A post shouldn't break under normal use, and should not be dented by the collar

Durability--a post needs to have some abrasion resistance to preventi t from wearing out if it is telescoped out of the seat tube often, but this is wear and not as critical as ultimate strength.

Seatpost size is somewhat subject to materials available to frame builders. Component manufacturers will have a hard time selling posts with an OD bigger than the ID of any tubes available to frame builders. That said, 27.2 and smaller sizes do not have any place in the world anymore, IMO. I do not have empirical data to back this up, but I think that larger sizes provide additional stiffness at the same weight, or possibly equal stiffness at the same weight.

Cleaning up the number of seatpost sizes and ending this ridiculous and lengthy proliferation would allow component makers to focus on optimizing just a few seatpost designs. Of course a few builders would make proprietary sizes again and the cycle would repeat, but setting a precedent of parts-standard reform could benefit both parties on both sides of the equation.

Thus far, frame builders have enjoyed relative freedom in regard to rear axle specifications. Options range from 9x135mm to 20x165mm and anywhere in between. 10x135 and 12x150 have emerged as popular choices, but they are not alone. Some frames use 14mm axles, some 20, some 16 with step up or step downs at the dropouts...etc.

Incorporating the rear axle as a structural member of the rear triangle is great. If it's light weight you're after, you can use thinner walled tubes for the rest of the triangle and spread some of the load to the axle. If maximum stiffness is what you want, clamping the rear wheel solidly in place helps triangulate the entire structure and reduce unwanted wobbles. Quick release skewers may work on road bikes, but they are remnants of a different era. New alloys, when used in appropriately larger sizes, can work just as well or better as solid steel skewers did 25 years ago.

On the other end of the spectrum, some manufacturers go overboard with their materials without spending more time on design. Giant builds its FR and DH bikes with rear axles more appropriate for your uncle's lifted 4x4 than anything powered by humans. Despite using all this extra metal, the axle just snugs down like a regular threaded axle. Most of the benefit of the extra heft isn't utilized. Rock Shox is on to something with the Maxle, and I hope that we--as consumers--are able to steer more manufacturers towards similar standards.
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
Word. Those 2 things have always really stuck out as being retarded to me as well. At least 12x150mm rear axles are becoming more standard, along with 83x128mm BBs on DH bikes.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
Let's see if we can get a lot of eyes on this problem. Maybe some industry reps want to chime in? If not, at least they'll see this on the top of forum as they lurk.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
IMO Torx > Allen > Phillips > Slotted. Of the currently available standards for internal bolt interfaces, Torx is my favorite.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
Aren't seatpost sizes often related to the size tubing the manufacturer uses on the frame?
Yes, they often correspond with the ID (internal diameter) of the tubing the frame builder chooses to use. Pressuring all builders to use the same size, say 31.6 or 31.8, would make it a lot easier for them as well. Remember, it costs everyone. You buy a new seatpost, but they have to order tubes, cutting bits to face the inside of the tubes...etc.
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
IMO Torx > Allen > Phillips > Slotted. Of the currently available standards for internal bolt interfaces, Torx is my favorite.
While Torx is suppossed to minimize stripping, I frikken' hate those stupid rotor bolts! They always seem to get stripped; maybe I'm just used to allens, but I have better luck with allen heads.
 

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
While Torx is suppossed to minimize stripping, I frikken' hate those stupid rotor bolts! They always seem to get stripped; maybe I'm just used to allens, but I have better luck with allen heads.
I'll agree with you on that! I actually went to a place that specializes in nuts and bolts and got small allen bolts that work on the rotors
 

vtminuteman

Monkey
Nov 29, 2004
166
0
Sharon VT
I was going to post something about this, but I wouldn't have done as good a job. One more thing that will change rear hub standards is internal trans(gearboxes). I agree on seatposts, there needs to be one mtb seatpost standard. 30mm dia. sounds good. All mountain bikes should run the maxel system front and rear.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
Gearboxes will definitely encourage new changes, but if there is no precedent for standardization, the addition of internal gearboxes will lead to even more market fragmentation.

In the next five to ten years I want to be able to go into a local bike store and say I need a seatpost, a BB bearing or a headset spacer and be asked nothing other than if I have a brand or color preference. I can buy an wheels for my car that way, avionics for an airplane that way, and hardware for my computer that way.

More people will be able to enjoy their rides if they can quickly and easily find replacement parts. Manufacturers need to recognize that their best customers are the ones who work in office buildings and can't wait a week for a spacer or get a 'bro deal' on an obscure hub. If you've ever worked at shop you'll know that weekend warriors spend just as much as hardcore types, even if they only ride 5 days a year.

Guys and families with disposable income and limited time to ride and wrench can give a serious boost to a boutique brand's bottom line. However, every manufacturer needs to make their products friendlier to the average customer.

Many frame/component combinations initially seem impossible because there's not enough awareness of adapters and spacers. This is a structural error that the industry needs to address. Customers shouldn't be left suffering, as they'll find a new hobby. Standardizing parts will mean less unecessary inventory for LBS owners and e-tailers, lower printing and warehousing costs for QBP and BTI and less time using the "advanced search" function on eBay!
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Yes. But why not use a standard size, or at least minimize the differences?
Because different styles of frame, different materials and different butting require tube size difference. Some frames the seattube is a structural member, some it isn't. Some frames are steel, some carbon, some aluminum etc etc.

30mm as suggested above, is ridiculously huge on something like a carbon or scandium XC bike. Many DH bikes only use 27.2mm.
 

Bicyclist

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2004
10,152
2
SB
Yeah, but the differences can be so miniscule that it at least seems like there could be fewer options out there.
 

skatetokil

Turbo Monkey
Jan 2, 2005
2,383
-1
DC/Bluemont VA
The ISCG '05 method seems like a good precedent for standardization. Perhaps DW or someone else who was involved with the design process can chime in, but it seems like it was driven by a dominant company in a particular niche (e-13) that stepped up and forged a consensus with other manufacturers. the result was a more specific description of the parts parameters that all frame designers can work with. It helps that chainguides are high dollar parts with decent industry concentration. Any idiot can make seatposts. Hubs are more complicated but plenty of companies still make them.

I've been pretty impressed with the adapters/shims/coversion parts you can get if you know where to look, but it takes time and effort. Proprietary parts that cant be made to work with existing standards will go by the wayside as part of the market process (see: saint hubs at fire sale prices all over the place because saint centerlock is a pain in the ass). The trouble is knowing in advance what new innovations are going to stick and whats going to end up in the dustbin.
 
Because different styles of frame, different materials and different butting require tube size difference.
To add a bit to that, you've also have to consider the design constraints of only having one or two standards to work with place on you. If we all wanted interchangeability, why didn't we just stick w/ 1" steer tubes, 25.4mm handlebars, square-taper bottom bracket, etc. Going outside of those "standards" allowed bicycle design to progress and get better.

ISCG is mentioned, which IS a great example of trying to standardize, but that's not an easy thing to do, getting everyone to agree on what's "best". Eventually, ISCG and other similar standards will be surpassed by other designs, some new standards, other just proprietary, that are better and more refined.

As far as fasteners, it's the same thing. The reason you have so many types of fasteners is BECAUSE of standards. And the standards between pan head vs. socket head vs. hex cap vs. all adhere to different standards, and each one creates design limitations according to the application. Not only that, but the other major factor is COST. I'm sure a bike manufacturer could make sure ALL fasteners on a bike were socket-head and the same size, but it would require CUSTOM fasteners (not adhering to the standard) which would drive up the cost. Most engineering's directive from purchasing or manufacturing is to use as many "off-the-shelf" components as possible. Again, to control cost.

Yes, standardization is good, but there are other considerations at play here.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
Cost reduction is possible through standardization.

Less inventory, better prediction of demand, swappable parts.

Sticking with the OLDEST standard is not what I am talking about. I am talking about sticking with, or possibly creating an agreed upon standard.

Much the way auto manufacturers have embraced DIN-sized head units or standardized spark plugs, bicycle manufacturers could benefit by streamlining. Will someone try to shake things up by releasing something new? Sure, but if the majority of the market is running one system, the new one will have to prove its merit before being widely accepted. The problem now is that there are different standards that differ just for the sake of being new and incompatible.
 

Sir_Crackien

Turbo Monkey
Feb 7, 2004
2,051
0
alex. va. usa.
probably should not have said everything i did. though i was all true i need to make sure that manufactures pricing need to be protected.

edited because of content not because of avoiding argument or anything like that
secret
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
It is true that products containing a significant amount of titanium and carbon are more expensive to make (in general) because the prices of titanium and carbon pre-preg have been rising. The price of nickel has also gone up dramatically, affecting the price of steels alloyed with it. As energy costs increase, smelting aluminum gets pricier too. Obviously high end, low-volume builders rely on fat margins to operate. It is the same in most industries. Competition will eliminate that to some degree, but what I want to eliminate is waste resulting from disorganization.

If someone really wanted to, they could start from scratch and build up an OEM bike, the way MX manufacturers do. They could vertically integrate somewhat, and achieve a higher degree of efficiency. However, the market is not that big for the bikes we ride, and the cost of capital to small timers is probably prohibitve.

I have often wondered about whether it would be possible to build a bike from the ground up, using in-house products. I'm sure many of us have thoughts about how to improve products. One thing that has stopped me from exploring this further is a relative lack of statistics regarding total DH bike sales. I'm not sure if there is an industry information source that I am ignorant of, but I have not seen any well-documented reports yet. It is possible that it is not practical for a data aggregator to approach this industry yet because it has not (and may never) reach the scale necessary to support such research.
 

Kornphlake

Turbo Monkey
Oct 8, 2002
2,632
1
Portland, OR
There are standards in place, at least as far as standards can be accepted. Most frames use one of the available seat tube diameters personally I've only owned one frame that wasn't 27.2mm, that says to me that 27.2mm is a standard as much as anything has been standardized in other industries. Look at a car, there are about a dozen bolt patterns for wheels between 4 bolt, 5 bolt and 6 bolt patterns with a couple of bolt circle diameters and a couple thread sizes for each pattern as well, that means that if you like a certain mag wheel you may have to custom order the bolt pattern that will fit your vehicle.

Somebody mentioned DIN size stereos, that is in my experiance a standard that has been too loosely defined and seems to have been abandoned lately by most manufacturers to incorporate factory installed navigation and entertainment systems. I had a chevy blazer that had a factory double DIN stereo, I had to buy an adaptor plate to get a single DIN unit to fit, not only did I need an adaptor but I had to saw away some material inside the dash to get an aftermarket headunit to fit. The Toyota I have now also had a double DIN headunit and it needed an adaptor plate as well and I had to make some modifications to the "standardized" adaptor to make it fit.

Forcing standards on a industry will inhibit technology, as a designer I might decide that a 31.8 seat tube will be stronger and lighter than a 27.2 seat tube, why should I be forced to compromise my design to accomodate a so called standard, it certainly is convenient to use an existing size like 31.8, maybe the optimum size would be 31.6 so I moved to the available size that is closest to the optimum size, maybe 31.6 was optimum 31.8 was a 3% loss in stiffness and 27.2 would result in a 30% loss in stiffness, which would you prefer?

Nobody is making frames that need headsets or bottombrackets that don't exist, in a few cases there may be only a couple of options for components but for the most part there are off the shelf components that will fit every frame on the market. You as a consumer are not forced to buy a frame that only has one or two available seat tubes, that information is disclosed by the manufacturers and you have the freedom to pass on a certain frame that may have a hard to find seat tube size or a less common rear axle, if you feel like you have to have the frame that does need those less common components you should realize that a lot of what makes that bike so special may be something as trivial as the seat post diameter or the rear axle size.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
27.2mm was a common seatpost size, but more manufacturers are switching to bigger diamaters. All the Specialized and Giant frames I've owned have used 30.9mm. Foes uses 31.6mm. The last bike I had with a 27.2mm was a 2005 Cannondale, but a model that had been around for years before that. Smaller diameter seatposts are a holdover from pre-fat-tube days.

Imposing a design standard is most likely out of the range of possibilities for a small group of consumers. The only way to enforce such a decision would be with our wallets.

Design standards do not stifle innovation. By agreeing upon a certain seatpost size, we will eliminate one more variable that engineers have to contend with. Say we agree upon 30.x mm OD. Designers still have the ability to manipulate wall thickness, material, interior shape, finishing...etc without constantly having to recalculate for different OD's.

Fatter seat tubes give more weldable area at the BB (for continuous tube designs) or to the mast (for interupted seat tube designs). They also provide more surface area internally for the post to distribute load, do not require as much deformation and deflection at the collar area (less fatigue) and can provide more traction to prevent post slippage.

Aluminum seems to be the material of choice for posts and we should encourage a standard that complements that material. 22.2, 25.4, 26.8 and even 27.2mm OD designs are left over from chromo bikes that used thick-walled, skinny OD tubes. We don't ride BMX bikes that are designed to be crush-proof in case we fall off a ledge while making sparks at the local civic center.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
Big manufacturers have, for the most part, voluntarily embraced larger seatpost OD standards. Consumers and aftermarket manufacturers should too. I have seen too many heavy, skinny posts shimmed into seat tubes built for modern posts to be happy. Modernize.

There are other areas that would benefit from standardization as well. It would allow small manufacturers to enter certain component fields without fearing that their investment will be wasted when Shimano or SRAM switches to something else.

Environmentalists should jump onboard with this too. Saving parts means smelting less aluminum. That equals major energy savings.
 

MinorThreat

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2005
1,630
41
Nine Mile Falls, WA
30mm as suggested above, is ridiculously huge on something like a carbon or scandium XC bike. Many DH bikes only use 27.2mm.
It can still be standardized with little hassle - - by going to thicker- or thinner-walled tubing. For seat tubes on an XC bike, just use a thinner-walled tube with the same ID; for an XC seatpost, use a thinner-walled tube with the same OD.

It has always mystified me as to why the bicycle consumer has had the patience to put up with such a ridiculously dizzying array of proprietary sizes, interfaces, etc.
 

Kornphlake

Turbo Monkey
Oct 8, 2002
2,632
1
Portland, OR
I have seen too many heavy, skinny posts shimmed into seat tubes built for modern posts to be happy. Modernize.
Why don't you modernize yourself and buy the appropriate sized seatpost for your new frame rather than adapting your old seat post with some hack job shim?

You knew before you bought the frame that it was going to need a special sized seat post, why didn't you order the right size seat post with the frame? It's not the manufacturer's concern rather the seat post you have sitting in your parts box will fit their new frame.

(by "you" in the above post I don't necessarily mean you the person posting, rather the person who complains about their antique seatpost not fitting a modern frame.)
 

peter6061

Turbo Monkey
Nov 19, 2001
1,575
0
Kenmore, WA
This would also help shops carry more selection of the post YOU want. When I worked ar a large shop, we stocked a dozen or so 'high-end' seatposts in a few sizes. We also stocked 20-50 each Kalloy (generic) seatposts in every size imaginable. Then there were shims.

If there were some kind of standard, the shop could save space and offer more selection, ie Thomson, Easton, RaceFace, etc,...

I would suggest getting down to three sizes max. 27.2 is already pretty standard on a ton of bikes. Pick another couple sizes and go with them. It's not like we have a lot of choices for the outside diameter of the tube (front derailleurs only come in three sizes). Granted a lot of front derailleurs are being shimmed down from 34.9 now anyway.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
It can still be standardized with little hassle - - by going to thicker- or thinner-walled tubing. For seat tubes on an XC bike, just use a thinner-walled tube with the same ID; for an XC seatpost, use a thinner-walled tube with the same OD.

It has always mystified me as to why the bicycle consumer has had the patience to put up with such a ridiculously dizzying array of proprietary sizes, interfaces, etc.
It isn't that easy. Most bikes actually do have engineers involved at some point, believe it or not. Wall thickness, butting and tybe type are all bike and design dependant, not selected willy nilly from a pile of stock.

You can't just change tube size on a world cup, triple butted scandium XC frame.
 

DIRTWRKS

Monkey
Aug 13, 2003
615
0
Canada EH !
What about the current state of Bottom Brackets, looked good a little while ago when almost all manufacturers embraced the ISIS standard. Now that everyone has gone to external bearings on their BBs many are not interchangeable between brands !
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
What about the current state of Bottom Brackets, looked good a little while ago when almost all manufacturers embraced the ISIS standard. Now that everyone has gone to external bearings on their BBs nothing is interchangeable between different brands !
Nope, most of the external BB are interchangable.
 

vitox

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
2,936
1
Santiago du Chili
What about the current state of Bottom Brackets, looked good a little while ago when almost all manufacturers embraced the ISIS standard. Now that everyone has gone to external bearings on their BBs nothing is interchangeable between different brands !

shimono and RF are compatible in the BB dept... maybe there are others too
 
L

LFB

Guest
In the next five to ten years I want to be able to go into a local bike store and say I need a seatpost, a BB bearing or a headset spacer and be asked nothing other than if I have a brand or color preference. I can buy an wheels for my car that way, avionics for an airplane that way, and hardware for my computer that way.
You have not bought aftermarket wheels for your car in a while, I presume. The point to replacing wheels is that you want a different size. However, even if you want to stay the same diameter, you have to find a wheel that is offered in the correct width with the correct offset and backspacing for your bolt pattern (4, 5, 6, 8 lugs with varying diameters).

These days are even more difficult for the aftermarket auto wheel industry because of the sensors for the tire pressure monitoring systems. These sensors will not fit properly on most aftermarket wheels. Because of the way these sensors fit, the wheel industry is going to have to retool in order to utilize these sensors. And regulations requiring TPMS will cause it to be on virtually every vehicle in the very near future.

So, having said that, aftermarket wheels in the auto industry is actually far worse than you make out the bicycle industry to be.

In my opinion, let the bike companies develope new sizes and concepts. Why should the designers be handicapped so you don't have to buy a new seat post if you change your frame? And why should us consumers be stuck with an inferior design (performance, weight, etc.) merely for convenience? Note, none of this is even a problem on a new bike!
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
They choose not to because they can provide a lighter, easier tpo produce etc product without a nonsense "standard" in the way.
true, using custom parts can make everything lighter better faster etc. But at what cost. Eventually consumers will demand lower prices for this stuff because in truth the bike industry can benefit immensely from economies of scale and standardization. We may not all be riding Sam hill or peaty's super awezome custom parts, but it will be affordable and of plenty good quality

they sell cars in china for under 5k after all...........(yes i know quality is **** probably but the point remains)
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
true, using custom parts can make everything lighter better faster etc. But at what cost. Eventually consumers will demand lower prices for this stuff because in truth the bike industry can benefit immensely from economies of scale and standardization. We may not all be riding Sam hill or peaty's super awezome custom parts, but it will be affordable and of plenty good quality

they sell cars in china for under 5k after all...........(yes i know quality is **** probably but the point remains)
You proved the point with your last comment. The DH bike and high end MTB sector in general is not about massive profits, or lower prices. That is why there are brands like Giant and Specialized who mill out hundreds of thousands of low end sub $100 wholesale bikes. The high end sector is all about glitz, glamour and the other nonsense that makes us spend $2500-3000 on a frame.

A lighter bike is better. An easier to build bike is cheaper.

At the end of the day, you can get a $30 axiom post and be done with it. Of all things, the seatpost is the most ridiculous thing to try and standardize just because it is so cheap and easy to make work on the riders end. For their $30 post, they got a lighter, easier to make cheaper high end bike.

edit: what kornphlake said below.
 

Kornphlake

Turbo Monkey
Oct 8, 2002
2,632
1
Portland, OR
And they can engineer around industry standards. They choose not to because they have never been forced to by a compliiant marketplace.
The compliant marketplace is Wal-mart, virtually every component on any bike out of china is interchangeable and built to a standard. Anything high end need not meet the same standards or else it would end up identical to the junk you find at wal-mart with an inflated price tag. I don't know where you are getting the idea that tube diameter is something that doesn't make any difference in design and that an engineer can make any design work with a 27.2 seat tube, that is not the case, limiting a design to one or two seat tube diameters could in some cases make a good design feel like crap, or in a less extreme scenario a good design would be mediocre because the seat tube had to meet a standard.

So what if there are 5 or 6 seat tube diameters, a couple of head tube diameters, a few different bottom bracket lengths and a handfull of rear hub configurations. It is not the bike industry's fault that you have to ride a bike made in china because you can't afford a seat post in a less common size, I don't complain about Ferrari using lamb skin seats instead of the industry standard cow hide, it's not going to make any difference, I can't afford a Ferrari anyway.

It is every engineer's goal to use existing off the shelf parts, it does nobody any good to build the greatest frame on earth that you can't attach a fork to. You can rest assured that if a particular frame uses an uncommon size there was a design intent that couldn't have been met with the most common parts.
 

MinorThreat

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2005
1,630
41
Nine Mile Falls, WA
I don't know where you are getting the idea that tube diameter is something that doesn't make any difference in design and that an engineer can make any design work with a 27.2 seat tube, that is not the case, limiting a design to one or two seat tube diameters could in some cases make a good design feel like crap, blah, blah, blah . . .
B.S. - - They seem to "suffer" the constraints of a 1.37" English-thread bottom bracket shell for the most part with no problem. Give me a break.
 

Kornphlake

Turbo Monkey
Oct 8, 2002
2,632
1
Portland, OR
B.S. - - They seem to "suffer" the constraints of a 1.37" English-thread bottom bracket shell for the most part with no problem. Give me a break.
Why exactly do you think manufacturers are pushing toward longer spindles and wider shells? The thread on the bottom bracket is unfortunately one of the few places where there is only one option and until a bottom bracket manufacturer agrees to build a different thread bottom bracket the engineer's hands are tied. It was the same with 1.5 headtubes, as far as I know bikes weren't built with 1.5 headtubes until a 1.5 headset was at least on the horizon. It doesn't do anybody any good to spec a bottom bracket that doesn't exist. Aside from a few very custom frames I'm not aware of anybody building frames around seat posts that don't exist, they may be sizes that are more difficult to find and Thomson may not make the exact lenght and diameter you need but there is at least one post out there that will fit.
 

stgil888

Monkey
Jun 16, 2004
484
0
Malibu, CA
You have not bought aftermarket wheels for your car in a while, I presume. The point to replacing wheels is that you want a different size. However, even if you want to stay the same diameter, you have to find a wheel that is offered in the correct width with the correct offset and backspacing for your bolt pattern (4, 5, 6, 8 lugs with varying diameters).

These days are even more difficult for the aftermarket auto wheel industry because of the sensors for the tire pressure monitoring systems. These sensors will not fit properly on most aftermarket wheels. Because of the way these sensors fit, the wheel industry is going to have to retool in order to utilize these sensors. And regulations requiring TPMS will cause it to be on virtually every vehicle in the very near future.

So, having said that, aftermarket wheels in the auto industry is actually far worse than you make out the bicycle industry to be.

In my opinion, let the bike companies develope new sizes and concepts. Why should the designers be handicapped so you don't have to buy a new seat post if you change your frame? And why should us consumers be stuck with an inferior design (performance, weight, etc.) merely for convenience? Note, none of this is even a problem on a new bike!
It's not that hard to find aftermarket wheels. Yes, different manufacturers use different mounting patterns. However, there are thousands or hundreds of thousands of that model car, so Rays or BBS can afford to build a few in different bolt patterns with the expectation that someone will want them. Would it be better if most passenger cars used the same bolt pattern? Yes. It's getting better. Offset is a different issue. Most rims with noted offset are used to put the tires closer to the fender wall and increase the track width of the car. ECS and others offer spacers that do the same thing. Spacers are usually used to clear bigger brake calipers...etc.

Would it be better if there were standardization in aftermarket wheels? You bet. I should get on Audiworld and Bimmerforums and start championing it, but that's not my concern right now. TPMS may become standard on more cars, and there's nothing wrong with using it with your stock rims. When you're tracking or autocrossing there's a chance you'll be using pressures that would set off your vehicle's TPMS warnings anyway.

There's a lot of negative feedback in regards to my choice of using a seatpost as an example of a good place for standardization. Bottom brackets would be good, but I don't get paid to make these comments so I'm trying to keep it brief. Many other posters have pointed out other benefits of using a standardized seatpost. Namely being able to access a good selection of front derailleurs locally. Standard seat clamps, front derailleurs, seatposts and even fender mounts based on an international standard seat post size would mean brand competition instead and produce evolution instead of 1991 niche technology because-it's-the-only-one-available-in-that-size, sir.

Is that probable? Not really. Steel frames will, given a standard seat tube ID, probably have a smaller nominal OD given that standard steel tubesets have thinner walls for a given OD. That said, it wouldn't be that hard to swage or otherwise shape the end of the tube for an I.S. collar standard or derailleur standard. A front derailleur shim would be tiny compared to a seatpost shim. Less wasted weight.

New bikes are not shim-free!!! Whoever says that has not dealt with many OEM Easton seatposts. Lots, and I mean lots of shiny new bikes come with brand-name seatposts in 27.2 or 28.9 with shims to keep them from rattling around in emerging standards like 30.9mm seat tubes. Product managers probably get a good bulk deal on a smaller post and buy cheap shims to space them out. A big seated bump = saddle into the rear tire for many of these setups.