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Unrest in Basra

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by fluff, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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  2. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Actually Iraq is what is known as a low intensity conflict. Civil War is much nastier. This is what all the recent insurgent attacks have been about. Trying to drive the country into civil war. Basra has been quiet for a long time. I can remember riding down the MSR though and having little kids standing in the medians making slashing motions at their throats as we went by. Nothing a little 5.56 spanking couldn't deal with though.

    It's time to take the kid gloves off and start pounding Iraq into bloody submission, which is what we should have done to begin with. Saddam understood that to rule a divided society you had to have an iron fist. Frankly, those monkeys aren't ready or deserving to govern themselves and should be placed under martial law for the next ten years while we slowly allow them to have some options. If not, then let the Kurds swoop down and annihilate the lot of them. Give the country to the last tribe standing.

    My two cents coming from 18 months and twelve dead friends in that ****hole.
     
  3. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    Wow, good start- so far you've advocated genocide and dictatorship as well as being openly racist. Remind me what the war is being fought over again. Seems like you're not getting Dubyas message.
     
  4. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Wow, that scathing analysis really hurts coming from an armchair QB like yourself. Perhaps if you've ever been out of your comfort zone you'd actually have a perspective in life. it's called "BEING PRAGMATIC" and is based on actual experience ON THE GROUND, being close to the situation. I don't really expect you to understand until they draft your a$$ and send you there. Then I expect you to stand up nice and straight and salute me when I walk by. In fact salute everyone that ever set foot in that place before you.
     
  5. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

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    So you think we need to instate martial law.

    How about, if we weren't there, there wouldn't be any insurgents?

    How about, taking 18 year old kids who don't even know how to f*cking shave, and telling them to go house to house and figure out which Arab is a terrorist, is f*cking stupid?

    I did my 6 years thanks, and I fully understand that it doesn't make me any better than anyone else.
     
  6. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Well I've done in a collective sense about 12 so thanks for your six, your perspective, but if you aren't in the game anymore, the yes you TOO are an armchair QB. Plus if you'd like to pony up your creds that would help a lot too. At 18 I was FULLY COGNIZANT of the game, and what it entailed. Most of the 18 year olds I meet aren't too ignorant either. So don't dump your creds out there on the table like they mean something heavy. My guess is you've never been in the sand either. Right or wrong?

    I'm talking about FIGHTING. You fight to win. And clearly the politics of that place aren't cutting the mustard. So now we have a whole new problem that needs to be DEALT WITH. You wanna save American/British lives or argue about semantics? I wanna save lives and I'm giving you the formula. Can't take it then move to South America and chill on the beach.
     
  7. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

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    Doesn't sound to me like you are trying to save lives at all.

    But your asinine opinion that the only way to "win" is to kill a bunch of Arabs... what exactly do you think is causing normal law abiding Iraqi men to become insurgents? It's people like YOU.

    YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

    And yes I've been to the Gulf. Standing in the sand does not make you an expert on anything, as you have so clearly demonstrated.
     
  8. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Well way to add something into the discussion that is an assumption. I'm talking about killing insurgents, and putting the "law abiding" average joe under martial law until the situation presents itself clearly, and figuring out who is who. The Iraqi's were given way too much freedom from the get go. More than they had their whole life. DAMN BAD ON US!!!

    But YOU in your wisdom from the rear with the gear are going to second guess people who have firsthand knowledge of the situation (and let me tell you-their aren't too many friendly Iraqi's anymore). The whole nation is a handicapped entity, destroyed by their own greed, arrogance, and ignorance.

    You Echo LIKE to hear yourself talk. I can tell by your 16,000+ POSTS. Goddamned loser, get a life. Now phuck off and return to your normal circle jerk. Oh and oohh you been to the Gulf. You mean that hundred hour circle jerk back in the nineties? Yeah I was around then too. And in panama and Somalia. Do you want a button or was your "Been There" ribbon enough for you?
     
  9. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

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    The best way to turn a law abiding citizen into an insurgent is to impose martial law. You haven't been paying attention much have you? Too busy being a racist and warmonger perhaps?
     
  10. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    No, like many who have actually EXPERIENCED WAR...ahem unlike your gulf war illness ass...I despise war. I am talking about WINNING The one we are in. You're not really talking about ANTHYING except some CNN **** you read somewhere. Listen to your gut feeling. Is it calling you "Yellow Coward"? It should be.

     
  11. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    FatalExposure,
    Why don't you post your creds? Your response is vague, you could be a toaster sales man in Jordan from what I read so far. What did you do for 12 years? Where where you? Did you have a clearance or were you just a ignorant tool? How many people did you see die?

    I spent 6+ years in a Special Access Project with a TS-SBI/SCI. Officially, per my national security debriefing, I am required to tell anyone who asks that my job involved "Weapons Testing" {cough, cough}. I use to read flash messages and intelligence estimates over morning coffee. I've seen more of "the game" than I ever wanted to, I have several friends who are permanently screwed up because of it.

    I know a little about Echo. I think I even met him once, and he has quite a bit of credibility.

    You, on the other hand, have absolutely no credibility at this point. Budweiser foreign policy is not going to solve this problem. We shouldn't be there, in a situation clearly beyond the understanding of the Bush team.

    We aren't fighting a war, we're supposed to be stabilizing the place so we can leave, ramping up the violence is not going to solve this. Last I heard we weren't in Iraq to pound it into bloody submission. Of course the reason we are there seems to change about once a month.

    Maybe I didn't get this months memo. so let's go down the list. WMD, nope. Saddam killing his own people, nope, people with the "the kid gloves off and start pounding Iraq into bloody submission" attitude like you are doing a much better job than he ever did. Fighting terrorists, nope, we're creating them. Create democracy in the middle east, nope it's going to be an Islamic republic, effectively it's gong to be a theocracy in a few years. So we really don't have a reason for being there anymore, other than we FUBARed the place, and need to fix it.

    "Nothing a little 5.56 spanking couldn't deal with though", is not a philosophy that's going to let us leave, much less create a stable country It's a recipe for disaster.
     
  12. ohio

    ohio The Fresno Kid

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    So at this point is our goal to bring them freedom or to simply control the situation and get out? Is our end game still a net improvement?

    Obviously you have little love for the place. Should we have gone there to begin with?

    I assume you mean soldiers' lives, not civilians. Correct?

    So, as someone who has been there, is the country better off now or before? Obviously things under Saddam were pretty ****ty, and second guessing past decisions doesn't fix the situation, but if we made mistakes we need to make sure we learn from them. You never know when we'll be faced with a similar situation (Iran).

    The major strategic decisions in this conflict are being made by civilians who have never served, let alone served 6 or 12 years. How do you feel about that?
     
  13. fluff

    fluff Monkey Turbo

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    Well this is a pleasant little debate...

    There seems little point in advocating pounding Iraq into submission, if we care so little about the people there we shoudl just pull out and let them fight it out amongst themselves, perhaps freeing Saddam first to minimise the total bodycount.

    However, seeing as how we messed it all up to start with we have some kind of moral duty to the common people (or monkey if you prefer).
     
  14. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Reactor PM's sent.
     
  15. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    reactor you made a point, i believe a rhetorical question that is, about how we acted during our war of independence. while i have to agree there are some parallels to occupation, martial law, criminalizing speech etc, etc.

    unless i missed something during history class we never killed OUR OWN PEOPLE. how can anyone justify what/how/when the insurgents do this? its fvcking barbaric! if and i do mean IF their actions were soley directed towards the occupying force, i might be able to rationalize their behavior. obviously i would still have to disagree with it as i don't want to see our soldiers killed, but i could still see the 'point' of it.

    when they started to kill their own people as a means of intimidation, division for the sake of civil war, etc, etc. i really could give a s h i t less what our soldiers do to them.

    and before some of you say thats cold hearted, ruthless, uncompassionate etc, etc, put yourself in the shoes of the innocent fvck that these 'noble' insurgents whack for the sake of making a point...
     
  16. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Yeah, well most of my original posting was a devious troll, so I'll chill a bit now.

    Ultimately the majority of the fighting has to be done by the Iraqi's. The situation is complex because of the tribal nature of Sunni's, Kurds, Shiites, and the many competing sects withing them. Then add the foreign fighter element, along with a flawed foreign policy and you have to start again from scratch. However, the country is 'sovereign' once more, and until the government declares some type of temporary measure to control movement in the country it is difficult to weed out the 'good' from the 'bad'. I predict that in reality Iraq will be a wasteland in 10 years. The only way for that not to happen is for them to figure out a solution amongst themselves. They are in a borderline civil war situation right now.
     
  17. MMike

    MMike A fowl peckerwood.

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    Wow.....this is quite the departure from your Snoqualmie thread.........

    Why don't you just invade Crystal Mountian and FORCE them to run the lifts for mountain biking?
     
  18. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Trolling in the political forum is all. I am pretty close to these situations in real life, and I try to echo some of the sentiments I encounter everyday into an open forum. Since my avatar exists as an anonymous entity it allows me to voice things I may not neccessarily feel in myself. Those are responses I have heard throughout my 3 years in the middle east.
     
  19. Echo

    Echo crooked smile

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    Wait, does this mean you're not going to come to my house and do some jujitsu moves on my old helpless out of shape ass? :devil:
     
  20. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Of course not man, but damn it was fun while it lasted. Sorry I had to do it. The opportunity presented itself. Trolling is an art form. You have to be truthful, but say things in a way that really set people's teeth on edge, or come across as so egotistical/maniacal that people can't help but join in. stating your opinion as fact ALWAYS gets people crazy. And then add some fuel by crossthreading. Well, but sometimes it backfires.

    Sometimes I do take some things personal, and I get edgy. In general though, I know people have strong feelings about the war over there, and yes I have spent quite a bit of time there. |I have mixed feelings myself. I would like people to come home, but I know that this term "terrorist" is real and they are not going away. Better to fight them now than later. I have a new son and I would rather fight in Iraq for the next twenty years myself then have him spend even one second doing what I failed to do.

    Cheers and thanks for the troll time. I will now retire to the mountain biking section of the website which brings a smile to my face.
     
  21. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    I think you should know me better than that.

    I don't agree with the methods at all. I'm just commenting on the cause, not the effect. I think anyone who would use a car bomb to intimidate people and kill people is sick. We are creating terrorists, right now, today, by continuing to occupy Iraq. People in Iraq don't have the same context as we do to judge the action. To them it's personal.

    Put yourself in the average Iraqi's shoes in Bagdad. Saddam was a bastard, but they had food, electrical power, and a country relatively free from violence. Now a foreign power invades, captures Saddam. They have totally different values from you. Everywhere you drive there are check points, you get searched. If you are in any suspicious you might get shot before you get a chance to even speak. That's if you can drive where you want to go, Many of the roads are completely blocked off, frequently there is no gasoline. You have very little electrical power, and medical care is worse than with Saddam. Troops routinely bust down doors and search houses, a lot of completely Innocent people are shot. There are more people dying every year to violence than to Saddam. This foreign power is dictating what your government is going to look like. A bunch of carpet baggers like Chalabi show up to assume control of important posts in the governement.

    What do you do? For a small minority of the people, usually driven radical Islamic clerics, the Pat Robertson's of the Islamic world, it's join the insurgents.
     
  22. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    The country was not relatively free from violence. Saddam Hussein has invaded two of his neighbors which resulted in nearly 10 years of wars killing millions, killed millions of his own people, and threatened to murder millions more. You paint such a nice rosy picture of Baghdad.

    The Iraq you seem to remember was the one RULED by the British after the 2nd world war. I have heard the same story in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Under western colonial rule...good place to live...after western powers pulled out...bad.

    Would you rather fight radical Islam from the front door of your house or Iraq? Truth is I didn't think we should have come here, but we're here now and let's get the job done. Innocents will die in the process and assholes like George Bush should be impeached, but we're talking about our sons and daughters here and that's REALLY my only concern.
     
  23. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    oh i wasnt saying you agree with their actions, just pointing out a glaring difference between historical occupational reaction vs what is currently occuring.

    i can't disagree its a cluster fvck right now.

    personally i wish we'd withdraw from every damn place since we are so universally reviled. just think of the $$ we'd save. let those ungrateful euro weenies fend for themselves and completely empty all of the nato bases. send some troops down to the southern border where WE are being invaded...
     
  24. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    I think everyone can agree that it would be good to pull out, but how to pull out with honor and with certainty they won't be sitting on our doorstep the next day. You'll never travel in certain parts of the world again without fear of being kidnapped and killed. Not that I am ever coming to the middle east or Persia again when all this is said and done. Verbier is about as far east as you'll get me.
     
  25. ridetoofast

    ridetoofast scarred, broken and drunk

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    how to make sure they dont end up on our doorstep? how about denying entry forever for anyone from that area? and completely sealing our borders...pipe dream i know
     
  26. MMike

    MMike A fowl peckerwood.

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    I am though.....HIIIIIIIIIIYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
     
  27. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    Oh and Reactor...your assessment and attitude are pretty much not concilatory, and I do apologize if I somehow truly offended you. I was simply yanking your chain once more. Your entitled to your opinion, but you've got it all wrong. Oh. and in case you didn't read the thread right it was someone implying I was somehow a homsexual because of the stand I was taking. So I'm not sure where you got that one. Don't tread on me.

    The British Army rolled like the 3rd reich in Basra from the moment they hit the ground. That area had a history of being difficult to control, and has seen some of the worst fighting during the Iranian Iraq war. The area is devastated and in extreme poverty even before we came in.

    They (British) maintained a fairly low profile in general, but when they had to, they enforced with an iron fist. As a result Basra for a time was one of the most stable regions in Iraq. In comparison the US was very open and allowed the Iraqi's to roam freely and go about their daily lives. The Sunni areas were the first to rise up and begin to create dischord in the region. I drove through Ramadi-Fallujah in June of 2003 in a softcar with no weapons, and received nothing but menacing stares. Now that would be a death sentence.

    By comparison, Baghdad was relatively calm, peaceful and open for a period. We used to go to open air restaraunts to eat at night. The invasion has potential to be helpful, but 12 months later I was flying over major Iraqi air bases where I could look down and see tons of ordinance there for the taking and unsecured. It was unfortunate that we allowed the civilians to dictate to the military how the invasion would be implemented. It was ignorant to assume the Iraqi's would welcome us with open arms. All in all it is a stain on our countries reputation, and I do not believe we had their best intentions in mind. Some believe that Saddam had agreed to back his countries oil reserves with the Euro $$$ (hence their reticence to partipate in the conflict). This would have devalued the US dollar by some estimates as much as 40% virtually overnight. The methodology the administration used to build it's case for war is well documented, but there are still those out their who firmly believe any WMD were moved into Syria and Iran prior to the invasion. Whether that is relavant or not, I don't know anymore.

    Our actions have created yet another Islamic battle call which will probably echo into our history for some time to come.

    Out here!
     
  28. Silver

    Silver find me a tampon

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    Your history teacher skipped over what happened to the Loyalists?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution)

    Keep in mind, there isn't a large, mostly empty (apologies the the Indians, I know) chunk of land north of Iraq to act as a safety valve. What do you think would have happened to the Loyalists during the American revolution if they had been stopped by a closed border up north?
     
  29. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    Why did you edit your original reply? It was much much better
     
  30. Reactor

    Reactor Turbo Monkey

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    I don't really expect you to understand that political dissent is the purest form of patriotism. I took an oath to protect and defend this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. My disagreeing with out country's misguided foreign policy is my way of doing that.

    Don't take it personally, I'm not bagging on the military for doing their job, I am disagreeing with the political leadership that sent them in. A leadership which apparently feels it's moral and ethical to lie to congress, inflate intelligence estimates, slander and blackmail anyone who disagrees with them. My gut feeling is that they are "ends justify the means" people, and that's not going to cut it in the modern world. How can you protect the principles of liberty and freedom, while trying to undermine them at the same time?

    As for the salute, you owe me one at least as much as I owe you one.
     
  31. FatalExposure

    FatalExposure Monkey

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    I agree that dissent is one of the truest forms of patriotism. I believe there used to be a journal bearing that name which compiled a yearly anthology of writings by political dissidents. It was usually a good read.

    When you're so close to the actual events it can be hard to be objective, because the policies and the politics all effect friends and coworkers. I think I tend to sometimes think in terms of "how will this affect my buddy in Al Anbar", or "if the insurgents move to Hillah who do I know there?", rather than how will this affect our nation as a whole.

    I think most Americans are now in full agreement that the current administration has made a horrible mess of an opportunity. September 11th was an opportunity for the world to take note of inequalities, as well as radical elements who want to commit mass murder in the name of sacred terror. Their ideologies stem from hundreds of years of perversions of their own religions. Religions that once you spend a great deal of time around them, don't seem all that different from "Our's". There are the moderate faithful, the hypocrites who hide behind their religion, the sinners, and the fanatics. The perversions occur when murder or suicide takes on a cause filled by the faithful. I have also encountered a number of "Crusaders" in the desert, although I would stand shoulder to shoulder with the Crusader, I am not unaffected by the irony. Our incursion is another chapter in a long history of open warfare between the west and middle east.

    Iraq is not lost, not even close to it, but I think most of us still question WHY we were there to begin with. Many were simply caught up in the moment and the administration exploited their zeal for revenge. I know that just about any militarily or security minded student of history probably shook their head in disbelief when the 1st units crossed the breach into Iraq for the 2nd time in 2 decades.

    Now the cost of pulling out, some say, is quite high. Being a student of history I kind of tend to disagree. Look at the British. At one time their manifesto was "Pax Britannia". As a result of this policy of empire, they suffered numerous humilating defeats militarily, economically, and politically. They also sewed a gene into almost every culture in the world. Many remember their contributions with respect rather than anger. I have spoken to a lot who say their countries were more open to individual freedoms, happier, economically sound. Yet elements with passion in their soul drove the British out, thinking that their ways would lead to truth, freedom. The fickle populations at home waxed and waned with the wind. The empire dwindled.

    With a lance
    and a musket
    and a Roman spear
    to all of the Men
    who have stood with dread fear
    in the service of the King

    Yet they, the British, come back time and time again, tenacious, eager to rewrite history. We can learn from them. Admire them. After all a good portion of our nation is spawned from their lineage.

    The American people think they are above pulling out. They see it as ignamonous defeat. I disagree. I think pulling out is good policy. Regroup, refocus on securing our nation (I hate the word HOMELAND-sounds too Teutonic), get people involved instead of chaining them to the bed post with fear. Create real laws that make sense. Retrain people to be effective in case of disaster, lose our dependence on foreign oil. Lose our dependence on debt financing, create healthcare systems that work.

    However, don't turn your backs on the guys fighting. Give them every tool they need to be successful, even in pulling out. The Iraqi's are not our friends. Some might be, but overall, they just want to govern themselves, even if that means civil war. If oil is the real reason why we are there then it was the wrong reason to be there. If WMD was the reason why we were there then we have other nations hostile to us who's programs are further ahead then Iraq's. We need to prepare to destroy them if neccessarry while trying to reason with their clearer senses.
     
  32. valve bouncer

    valve bouncer Master Dildoist

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    Wow mate, good post there, I hope that was the real you.
    Good points about the British. The Commonwealth has lasted despite itself and indeed grown in the last generation. I don't know if that is more to do with the desire of the smaller nations to have some say or because of some deeper feeling for the British. I suspect the former. I even think that if you Americans want to rejoin we might even consider it.;)

    You said that a good portion of your lineage is spawned from them. I'd say that most of your lineage comes from them. In many respects you followed too closely and took too long to learn the lessons they did. Trying too hard to follow in their footsteps you neglected to understand why they had to let go of their empire and thought you could do better. The world moved on but you were stuck back in a 19th century way of dealing with things. The world will not neccesarily follow you no matter how sincerely you believe in your ideal of what's right. It's not to say that you are wrong but to admit that perhaps your way is not the best in all circumstances.