Upside down forks.
- Thread starter Hougham
- Start date
Cannondale made a dc fork called the moto fr years ago that had square stanchions like a lefty and I'm assuming worked similarly. It was stiff as hell but for some reason (I'm not sure why) the needle bearing thing limits the amount of travel you can use. That's cannondale's claim and I haven't seen the guts of one to know enough to understand why that is.
If you've ridden a lefty, you know how stiff it is....but I've never felt one that I'd necessarily describe as 'plush'.
Maybe someone who knows more about that system could chime in.
Oh, by the way, we are not alone here: this very same debate (USD vs. conventional) is raging over in the moto ranks as we speak 
I didn't mean to tar everyone with my 'provincial thinking' comment - -but I do find our collective thinking funny at times. Like, why do we think going down a hill by ourselves against a clock is "racing?" Mountaincross is finally accepted, but mostly embraced by ex-BMXers; while some still wax nostalgic about dual-slalom.
Ahh, but have you ever seen enduro-cross? Or slammed a berm and simultaneously grabbed a handful of 45hp? There's a whole bunch of torsional loads happening there.kidwoo said:
I didn't mean to tar everyone with my 'provincial thinking' comment - -but I do find our collective thinking funny at times. Like, why do we think going down a hill by ourselves against a clock is "racing?" Mountaincross is finally accepted, but mostly embraced by ex-BMXers; while some still wax nostalgic about dual-slalom.
Obviously there's some torsional consideration but is it anywhere near the fore aft priorities in slamming into whoops at 60mph? I don't know.......just seems like like going with the superior design in that respect would be the goal even if it sacrifices some torsional rigidity. That's just a guess since I only ride mountain bikes and not motos.Oh, by the way, we are not alone here: this very same bebate (USD vs. conventional) is raging over in the moto ranks as we speak
Ahh, but have you ever seen enduro-cross? Or slammed a berm and simultaneously grabbed a handful of 45hp? There's a whole bunch of torsional loads happening there.
I know this is a common discussion on moto forks too though.
But as mentioned earlier, material weights are a much bigger concern in our little aluminum toys. Just seems like in order to keep it light AND stiff......the traditional designs are winning......regardless of what's going on with motorcycles. It IS a different sport even though there is definitely some technology crossover.
Ahahaha, I needed that.
$300 for 4 forks is a good deal.
Well, I don't think we said that it was tortionally superior, but in any case, with the fore-aft thing, you could just use a non-inverted design, and make the stanchions bigger, like with a fox 40 or monster T. Now you're back to square one.
The shiver is a pretty solid fork. They are heavy by today's standards but were very nice performers.
Much lower maintenance than today's lighter forks too. More oil = less oil changes.
Mine gave me 4 seasons of trouble free use.
Everybody says they aren't stiff but I swapped mine out for a friends boxxer. Nothing else changed on the bike. The shiver was noticeably faster because it held the rough line better.
They have gone out of fashion because of weight. There is a reason EVERY performance moto fork is inverted.
Much lower maintenance than today's lighter forks too. More oil = less oil changes.
Mine gave me 4 seasons of trouble free use.
Everybody says they aren't stiff but I swapped mine out for a friends boxxer. Nothing else changed on the bike. The shiver was noticeably faster because it held the rough line better.
They have gone out of fashion because of weight. There is a reason EVERY performance moto fork is inverted.
Thank you for the offer Kidwoo. I really had my heart set on some inverted forks and they were local to me. Are those Risse even worth a offer?
Also a friend has said a friend of a friend is has for sale a set of dorado. What are they like for parts? Are they worth much as from what im told there probably going to be asking quite a bit for them.
Also a friend has said a friend of a friend is has for sale a set of dorado. What are they like for parts? Are they worth much as from what im told there probably going to be asking quite a bit for them.
The unsprung weight theory is a bit variable. It all depends on whats at the bottom of the fork internally,and how much weight difference is there between mag lowers and say Shivver or dildoe lowers?
You won't be happy with your rissie purchase,take the 888s,far less fiddling,much more riding.
The Sunn wheel flex thing is due to a fork and rear end not really absorbing sideways forces,like when a bike is leaned over hitting bumps.
Oooo spoke or hub bearing dampening,there's a market for that.
You won't be happy with your rissie purchase,take the 888s,far less fiddling,much more riding.
The Sunn wheel flex thing is due to a fork and rear end not really absorbing sideways forces,like when a bike is leaned over hitting bumps.
Oooo spoke or hub bearing dampening,there's a market for that.
needle bearings seem to make the fork feel like ass; more friction (ironically), more vibration, more unsprung weight (all those little needles have to spin up, with high frequencies can't be good).
The physical limitation is the needle carrier has to move up and down the legs because the needles have to travel the same distance of the available travel (roll a pen between two books and this is whats happening). So if you have 4" or travel, the carrier needs to travel 4" inside the leg; so if the needle carrier is 5" long, you need a tube with 9" of clearance internally for the bearings.
The Moto was a right side up fork (as i remember) so never got much travel; would of gotten more like the lefty had it been upside, which is probably what they were doing when the lefty was born.
The unsprung weight theory is a total joke.
Check the weight on a pair of boxxer WC lowers, damper rods, and 15ml of oil per side. Now compare that to the shiver lowers - big dropouts, 35mm stanchions, and ~260ml of oil per leg (520g just in oil).
Having run a couple of inverts in the past (dorado, shiver, risse champ), they all had a couple of winning points. Real heavy, real flexy, and offered a pretty vague feeling under aggressive riding. The only positives were that they smoothed out big rockgardens, and like zedro mentioned the stanchions are far less likely to get scratched thanks to the guards. Oh, and the TPC+ damper in the dorado rocked - pity about the chassis!
Finally, like zedro said, most conventional forks are extending the lowers at least to the bottom of the axle if not lower (boxxer/40 and for 08, the 888) to get extra bushing overlap so it's not going to be uncommon for conventional forks to be stiffer both laterally and torsionally.
If you have a love and desire for inverts, by all means buy one - but IMO there is no real advantage to running one these days, and a whole lot of disadvantage.
Check the weight on a pair of boxxer WC lowers, damper rods, and 15ml of oil per side. Now compare that to the shiver lowers - big dropouts, 35mm stanchions, and ~260ml of oil per leg (520g just in oil).
Having run a couple of inverts in the past (dorado, shiver, risse champ), they all had a couple of winning points. Real heavy, real flexy, and offered a pretty vague feeling under aggressive riding. The only positives were that they smoothed out big rockgardens, and like zedro mentioned the stanchions are far less likely to get scratched thanks to the guards. Oh, and the TPC+ damper in the dorado rocked - pity about the chassis!
Finally, like zedro said, most conventional forks are extending the lowers at least to the bottom of the axle if not lower (boxxer/40 and for 08, the 888) to get extra bushing overlap so it's not going to be uncommon for conventional forks to be stiffer both laterally and torsionally.
If you have a love and desire for inverts, by all means buy one - but IMO there is no real advantage to running one these days, and a whole lot of disadvantage.
Depends on the year with the dorado. The early ones had 30mm stanchions and were noodles, the later ones had 32 and were stiffer (stiffer than a shiver laterally) and then they started screwing with the dampers so every year is different......and you may not be able to get parts for it.
There was a whitebrothers dh3 for sale here that was $150.........and I'm pretty sure it's my old fork based on the scratches. If it's' still in the classifieds, that would be my vote. I almost bought it.
If you buy that risse, you really are only getting it for the appearance. Those things are like the lowest end of the low.
But say you've got a stationary 'carrier' where the needle bearings take up no more space than a set of bushings........ Only thing moving is the stanchion between the bearings instead of bushings.
Seems like you could use the same chassis as a bushing fork?
Traditional bearings yes.
I'm thinking something along the lines of 4 rolling pins on spindles with one side freestanding.......one on each side of the square stanchion.
Sounds heavy and complicated I know
Thank god people are realizing this. Yes, in some situations you might lose some unsprung weight, but we're talking like 5% of the total unsprung mass, so such a small percentage that it's not going to make any noticable difference. You'd be better off with a different tire, wheel, or whatever...do the math and you see it's not what people make it out to be. You're saving like 1/4 to 1/2lb off of like 8lbs of unsprung mass.
well in that case lets use maglev technology instead; they're electrifyingly smoothTraditional bearings yes.
I'm thinking something along the lines of 4 rolling pins on spindles with one side freestanding.......one on each side of the square stanchion.
Sounds heavy and complicated I know
I'm totally going to build some light rail bushings.
I can mount a potentiometer on my handlebars to vary plushness......right next to the gravity dropper lever, the gps, all the rock shox remote crap, the grocery list and that canary that likes to go for a ride with me.
i'm gonna build suspension based on photon energy; it is both plush and gives a dazzling light show on the way down. I call it Dazzletron technology......
One leg adheres to wave theory.......the other leg follows particle dynamics...all with the same energy source!!
It better be bright though. Have you seen some of the clothes people wear to go ride bikes these days?
It better be bright though. Have you seen some of the clothes people wear to go ride bikes these days?
well if gold glitter sequins ever comes into fashion, I will melt my bike down into a molten puddle of cromaluminum.
hey what was this thread about again? something about bringing back disco?
Used to rock an old pair of Hanebrink LT10's. When they were working they were one of the plushest forks I have ever owned. Only problem was I had to rebuild them like once a week, nice thing was I could get spare parts from the hardware store. Even for rebuilding the internals...it was crazy.
part of why they always need to be rebuilt...buddy used to take his Bombshell Marilyn (same fork) apart on the trail once a week sometimes.
and we still try to explain to floor guys why they can't go to Home Depot to install bolts on the aircraft...god help us
i was going to find a suitable background from a David Hasselhoff concert to superimpose it on but i'm at work and surfing thru pics of 'The Hoff' just seemed so so wrong....
^and dangerous
no kiddding, first pic was MMikes old avatar....nearly destroyed my laptop with high pressure streams of coke shooting out of my nose....
How 'bout a magnetic levitation system, a'la the Magnetic Space Coupe from Dick Tracy?
Smooths out the roughest moonscape!
Knowing nothing about the Showa stuff as its only available to Honda riders, I am inclined to think its high performance, but dont understand why its on a pedestal.
"They've been making motorcycle forks for years" - so has Marzocchi - they have a stellar reputation.
Fox has been producing shocks for a breadth of sports for years before entering the MTB market and is dominant in shock implementation across the board.
Is Minaar leading any of the series? Has he won WC series or championship on his Honda?
My experience leads me to believe that the benefits of UD forks for MTB application are significantly outweighted by the liabilities, elsewise why have they been abandoned except by the boutique companies?(Who can sell more due to the 'mystique' and rarity of this type of fork, rather than any performance advantage.)
"They've been making motorcycle forks for years" - so has Marzocchi - they have a stellar reputation.
Fox has been producing shocks for a breadth of sports for years before entering the MTB market and is dominant in shock implementation across the board.
Is Minaar leading any of the series? Has he won WC series or championship on his Honda?
My experience leads me to believe that the benefits of UD forks for MTB application are significantly outweighted by the liabilities, elsewise why have they been abandoned except by the boutique companies?(Who can sell more due to the 'mystique' and rarity of this type of fork, rather than any performance advantage.)
manufacturing is another reason the boutiques use it, mainly because they are machine shops and don't cast parts so shy away from integrated lowers. Fully machined right side up designs were out there by the same makers, but some of their chassis were less than stellar (the Stratos S7 comes to mind as a twisty DC with bolted arch).
Yup, casting lowers, and CHANGING castings like some of the companies do frequently, is much more expensive. This is why I'm skeptical that Avalanche would come out with a good single crown fork, but if they did a 6 or 7"er, the damping should be excellent. It's just that it would be a bolt-together affair. The old marzocchi Super Ts were CNCed and bolted together, at least the first generation, but it's a lot easier to CNC a couple crowns, then upper and lower tubes, and you've got a hannebrink, er I mean a fork!
i think minaar has one a bunch of wc's, im not sure hto, but i no a few years back he owned.
i think that they both have advantages. if you tend to absoltely bomd a rock garden, a usd fork would work well
if you pick lines and are turning a lot i think a reg fork would be nice
i think manitou id a great job with the 05 dorado an had it gone another year it could have been great
the hex axle is a good idea, as is the very large carbo uppers at the lower clamp. if hey had machined a flat face on the uppers to stop rotation that may be good
i think some more effort could be put into either designs to make them better, but it really is an opinion on which is better
i think that they both have advantages. if you tend to absoltely bomd a rock garden, a usd fork would work well
if you pick lines and are turning a lot i think a reg fork would be nice
i think manitou id a great job with the 05 dorado an had it gone another year it could have been great
the hex axle is a good idea, as is the very large carbo uppers at the lower clamp. if hey had machined a flat face on the uppers to stop rotation that may be good
i think some more effort could be put into either designs to make them better, but it really is an opinion on which is better
Just a thought, But could it be as simple as most forks have been one way round due to no through axle and rim brakes that most cycle forks production, damping and spring technology has gone that way. So its just easier and cheaper for them to stick with the way they are doing things. I suspect that is so.
I think the smaller people such as White Brothers, Tech-in, Risse and such like, everything they do is relatively custom. This allows them to do something a bit radical such as turn the forks over.
As for weight all the weight thing I don’t even think that true really. Most of the USD forks out there are big burly things or are simply old and in being so are old technology. If you compare a current tech-in to Marzocchi 888VF2, RockShox Boxxer Ride and Manitu Stance Kingin in weight there all some what similar ish. All the super light normal way round forks are air sprung. Yet as air spings cost a lot to develop unless I dont think USD forks will ever be as light until the big guns really start to push the development across the range on them.
Just a thought anyhow. I could be totally wrong. I just fancied a try of something a bit different really.
I think the smaller people such as White Brothers, Tech-in, Risse and such like, everything they do is relatively custom. This allows them to do something a bit radical such as turn the forks over.
As for weight all the weight thing I don’t even think that true really. Most of the USD forks out there are big burly things or are simply old and in being so are old technology. If you compare a current tech-in to Marzocchi 888VF2, RockShox Boxxer Ride and Manitu Stance Kingin in weight there all some what similar ish. All the super light normal way round forks are air sprung. Yet as air spings cost a lot to develop unless I dont think USD forks will ever be as light until the big guns really start to push the development across the range on them.
Just a thought anyhow. I could be totally wrong. I just fancied a try of something a bit different really.