Richie is on the start list.
Val di Sol - 2024
- Thread starter canadmos
- Start date
Vital pit bits was showing how mechanics were putting lead sheets on V10s to increase the weight. Why do they make carbon fiber DH bikes?
Neko has an interesting approach to that with the Frameworks bikes, trying to optimize unsprung vs sprung mass.
Though I really wonder how much difference 500g at the bb makes when there's a 70-80 kg rider standing on the pedals....
I suspect a lot of the stuff you see going on in WCDH is just a result of insanely competitive riders trying to find tenths of a second. Whether that comes from actual quantifiable changes or just them thinking something is better, if it makes their time better, they'll do it. If they see some other riders doing something who claim that it makes them faster, they're going to want to try the same thing. Think about those "vibration damping stickers" that Commencal was using a few years ago. Or the Fox skinsuits. Or Ochain.
it's really easy to find out.
I hung my dakine tool bag below my BB the on my old Session the first year I went back to Morzine after riding Ebikes. It definitely made the bike more stable. That bike was too light for a DH bike really at 35lb and it was also pretty short so a bit more stability was welcome.
The bag was around 600g and I was definitely over 80kg
Defitinitely true. Ihad also the first gen Session88.
Apart from being too small, it was also too light, at least with a light build.
For me it's the inertia that a little bit of weight adds to the bike, so it responds less twitchy to rider input.
This is especially true if you think of the perception that generally speaking ebikes have a superior suspension performance than normal bikes.
Haptics play a huge role if you think of your everyday life.
Like if you lift something up that is actually a lot lighter then anticipated and you loose your balance just for a 1/100 of a second, yu get uncomfortable.
Or if you do kettlebell-swings with a way too light kettlebell and the "swing" doesn't really happen and the movement doesn't click.
Generally speaking, the right weight gives you a sense of quality, safety and comfort.
Its a Saturday race. Which means like Sunday 1am for us Aussies, not sure how that translates to Scoootland, but you're pretty close timezone yeah?
Cheers!
Italy is just an hour ahead.
I'm working but will stick it on the work laptop in the background bluetoothing the sound to the workshop speaker.
Somebody get over there and cough all over Ric again please. Josh was a breath of fresh air last week.
Ps. Scotland Vs Germany in Euros tonight so will be watching that in the pub with my youngest. Might be a bit fuzzy tomorrow. Aint going near any shit made by Hope.#
[edit] Football. The proper one!
Italy is just an hour ahead.
I'm working but will stick it on the work laptop in the background bluetoothing the sound to the workshop speaker.
Somebody get over there and cough all over Ric again please. Josh was a breath of fresh air last week.
Ps. Scotland Vs Germany in Euros tonight so will be watching that in the pub with my youngest. Might be a bit fuzzy tomorrow. Aint going near any shit made by Hope.#
[edit] Football. The proper one!
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I think that session had other problems not just weight. I managed to get my Legend to 35 too and while the weight distribution of the frame was probably lower than on the Trek I think a large issue of the Trek was the suspension. Especially if you had the earliest model that was more progressive. That thing bounced around more than other bikes. The low weight was probably something that simply compounded the issue.
Think mine was a 2010/11 not one of the very first ones
You may still have a point tho. But I genuinely liked the super active rear. Any idea what Trek changed in 2011/12? Gwin's results back then wouldn't suggest there was anything inherently wrong with that bike.
Where's @Avy?
TBH I hadn't ever seen it as a problem until I'd ridden the super planted Emtb pretty much daily for months then hopped straight on the Session out in the Alps. Which is exactly why I decided to try strapping my tool pack under the BB. Honestly didn't expect to even notice it. But it turned out to be instantly noticeable first run after fitting it.
This was maybe back in 2017. No one back then would believe me that my Ebike felt far more stable than any DH bike I'd ever had. Ebike was a 27.5 ESommet, and a small, so also short. and at 47lb also way lighter than modern 170mm Eebs these days.
I still ride one of the last older version Esommets and a small. as I just find modern Emtbs too heavy and basically hard work to ride playfully. (lower back killers to manny)
You may still have a point tho. But I genuinely liked the super active rear. Any idea what Trek changed in 2011/12? Gwin's results back then wouldn't suggest there was anything inherently wrong with that bike.
Where's @Avy?
TBH I hadn't ever seen it as a problem until I'd ridden the super planted Emtb pretty much daily for months then hopped straight on the Session out in the Alps. Which is exactly why I decided to try strapping my tool pack under the BB. Honestly didn't expect to even notice it. But it turned out to be instantly noticeable first run after fitting it.
This was maybe back in 2017. No one back then would believe me that my Ebike felt far more stable than any DH bike I'd ever had. Ebike was a 27.5 ESommet, and a small, so also short. and at 47lb also way lighter than modern 170mm Eebs these days.
I still ride one of the last older version Esommets and a small. as I just find modern Emtbs too heavy and basically hard work to ride playfully. (lower back killers to manny)
I think the change was for your bike year or maybe a bit later. If I remember correct there were 2 change iterations. First was to make the bike less progressive and the 2nd was to make it slightly more rearward as the axle barely moved back on the early models. I remember we switched bikes a lot with our friends and we were all surprised at how non planted the session felt vs 2 gens of V10s and a Legend and a Glory.
But this may lead us to an interesting point. Do less rearward bikes need more weight to compensate for more energy getting transfered to them? Honestly no idea. It might be bias.
Also 47lb is managable weight imho. Some modern monsters kind of make no sense. The whole idea of a trail bike is that it makes easier trails more playful so people getting huge bateries and "2003 pinkbike freeride" weight bikes seems weird to me. <50 seems fine but I've tried one 50+ bike and fuck that. It felt horrible. Granted the geo was also shit but if I want to go to a gym I don't take my bike.
where the weight is is extremely important. the rise range extender was only a bit over 1kg, but the placement high above the bb was very noticeable, same now with the even lighter specialized one that is placed even higher up in the frame due to shock placement
We're mostly all old enough here to have ridden DH bikes around the 47lb mark.
The difference in weight distribution between an old DH bike and an older mid motor Ebike like the ESommet I ride is huge. Those old DH bikes tended to have very heavy wheels and finishing kit and heavy frames and forks. ie. generally just heavy all over and often running super heavy duty weighty tubes. Whereas with the old ESommet there's a 3kg motor right at the BB and a 3kg battery low on the downtube. and reasonable weight wheels. They're nowhere near as light as 47lb stock BTW but I run a light weight 10spd drivetrain with a small range cassette because I don't need low gearing with a motor and fitted fairly weight conscious finishing kit which saved tons of weight.
Modern FS full power mid motor Eebs are all around 55lb+ (25kg) have slightly lighter motors than mine by maybe 400g but far heavier internal downtube batteries that extend much higher up towards the head tube. and heavier frames to accomodate the internal batteries. So not only are they a good chunk heavier. They actually have worse weight distribution.
The difference in weight distribution between an old DH bike and an older mid motor Ebike like the ESommet I ride is huge. Those old DH bikes tended to have very heavy wheels and finishing kit and heavy frames and forks. ie. generally just heavy all over and often running super heavy duty weighty tubes. Whereas with the old ESommet there's a 3kg motor right at the BB and a 3kg battery low on the downtube. and reasonable weight wheels. They're nowhere near as light as 47lb stock BTW but I run a light weight 10spd drivetrain with a small range cassette because I don't need low gearing with a motor and fitted fairly weight conscious finishing kit which saved tons of weight.
Modern FS full power mid motor Eebs are all around 55lb+ (25kg) have slightly lighter motors than mine by maybe 400g but far heavier internal downtube batteries that extend much higher up towards the head tube. and heavier frames to accomodate the internal batteries. So not only are they a good chunk heavier. They actually have worse weight distribution.
The old DH bikes were also much worse bikes. The suspension both design of the frame and the dampers was pretty shit. So that didn't help either. Also not sure about you Gary but when I had a 23kg bike I was a 55kg stick person (at 179cm so I looked like I was on a hunger strike). So I felt that weight.
But yeah. What is the range advantage of those super big super high power emtbs? I get them as a niche product for people living in specific areas in the world but I hear many people who drive to the mountains are also getting them and I have no clue why.
I didn't mean super high power, just the usual legal 250w nominal 70-95nm (Bosch/Shimano etc.) motors you find in mainstream Emtbs. Don't confuse 250w nominal with max power though. most common 250w motors peak between 600ish and 750w.
The weight comes from the large batteries. and the structure to house them
Larger the battery, greater the bike's riding range.
Range varies massively between motors but even more so by rider weight.
and it's ride elevation which uses up battery rather than just distance. and higher assistance modes use more battery so also lowers range
a light rider could realistically expect 2-3000m ascent from a large 750wh battery depending on modes used but maybe squeeze 2000m from eco (if lucky) on a 500wh battery.
steeper/larger your climbs and heavier you are the more battery you'll use so larger battery you'll want. (assuming you ride decent distances in decent hills)
Rolling resistance (tyre choice and pressures) also affects range in a big way. a set of DH tyres at low pressures with inserts could be robbing you of 100w assistance. This is the main reason Emtb riders moan about motor drag *(which doesn't really exist any more than a couple of watts over a normal drivetrain) above the speed limit assistance cut out.
Oh. and chipped/derestricted motors also give far less range. But ride way better.
You thinking of making the leap?
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BRO
ridemonkey.bikemag.com
BOOOOOO E-BIKES
Just a warning about Ebikes before you all settle down watching Rampage. I was foolish enough to buy one for about half the price of a new 29" carbon DH bike Absolutely hated riding mine pretty much all day and night yesterday. It was horrible climbing up all those many thousands of feet faster...
ridemonkey.bikemag.com
Nah. It makes no sense for me. I need to drive 2h to the nearest hill and 3h to proper hills. So I have to chose my trails anyway and I can chose the ones that either have lifts or uphills I can do on my own. Plus I like the current weight of my bike. Also can't afford it for now since I still haven't got a new job and I told my boss I'm not coming back to my old shitshow. Then I will probably get an endurance road bike and maybe a new dirt jumper as my current one is 14 years old and barely alive. The Capra does its job well and I'm past that stage of my life when I think about buying new parts for bikes all the time. Would rather spend it on riding or an unhealthy wine habit.
sooooo, back to the racing... what the heck is up with that list of DNS'?!?! are people going mental trying to qualify and throwing caution to the wind?! I count 19 elite men as DNS... and 10 DNFs. crazy.
Bummed to see Neko didn't make it through. Happy Greg did. That team really deserves a little good luck at this point...
Bummed to see Neko didn't make it through. Happy Greg did. That team really deserves a little good luck at this point...
Pretty sure he openly admits he is just there to test the bike.
Ed Master bailed out because he was afraid of hurting himself. He actually got red flagged at Ft Bill and chose not to take a re-run for the same reason. Not sure if that is wisdom as he is primarily Enduro these days or if the danger got into his head.
Richie in 28th, in semi finals.
So he qualified for finals?
Yay! I picked the wee bottle snozzler for my fantasy team
would normally think WhoTF is gonna buy that shit but actually have a mate who has a BK Sports top.
Reece Wilson is out too, dislocated shoulder.
haha
He's young enough to be my Son. We all made poor choices at that age. Didn't we?
damn, people dropping like flies. jordan williams out for the season with a blown up knee. savage sport.