Sam, hands down. First, because it was World Champs, so way more pressure than a standard WC round. Second, because he still made the podium with his crash.
Val di Sole (ITA) 2013 World Cup #2
- Thread starter bismojo
- Start date
really? like actually? you think the guy that would have won by a smaller margin but crashed put up a better run then the guy who actually did win by a bigger margin? and you're not joking right now right?
Might want to go re-watch it. For starters, tracks are never the same. They change from year to year, especially ones with snow in the winter. So while it's the same 'track' there are variables that make time comparisons moot, even on the same day, let alone years apart..... Also, track *conditions* are variables as well. How dry was the track? How hot was it? Etc etc. Year to year comparisons are only made out of poor judgment.
Second, Sam was more than 8 seconds ahead, and would have won by a larger margin than Gwin. Everyone who has watched that race knows it was more than 8 seconds.
Third, Sam still placed 3rd with that massive crash. That in itself is amazing.
IMO Sam's run there was more intense, visibly quicker, more stylish, and indeed more incredible.
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In 2008 that track was a beautiful tacky dirt alpine trail. Tops of the rocks were just peaking out the ground. Now it is completely eroded and over ridden. Is nothing but the holes and rocks. I actually think Beaumont had the most impressive result. People were baffled that year and he just stormed the whole thing.
Gwins time 2011 was 3:10:36 and in 2012 3:10:58 in Val di Sole. Sam's time was 3:15:57 with that massive crash. I'm not saying the courses are the same, but they where probably pretty similar if you watch Gwins times..
I don't mind Gwin winning races, as long as the racing is tight. I would like to see Sam Hill back in the mix in the top, mostly because he was the guy to look up to when I started riding DH (although, CG was the man that got me interested in the sport. Legend.)
I don't mind Gwin winning races, as long as the racing is tight. I would like to see Sam Hill back in the mix in the top, mostly because he was the guy to look up to when I started riding DH (although, CG was the man that got me interested in the sport. Legend.)
These guys just skip over the tops anyway.
so conditions don't matter or they do?
Actually, scratch that, I love it when a rider simply takes the field apart and SMASHES their times, but I like the SEASON to be close, it should be down to the last race!
Also, if you look at the runs on youtube (Gwin -12 and Hill -08), the tracks don't look much different, and then there is always the question of how much 4 years of development in bike geometry, suspension, brakes etc. would make a difference. All I know is that both runs are insane to watch again.
I really don't think this debate will ever get anywhere, you can very rarely compare runs from different events in this and many other sports. It's different if you have a race track and set conditions, then you can always say that one time is better than another but in DH, with the measure being how much faster someone is than someone else? Fogedaboudit.
Also, if you look at the runs on youtube (Gwin -12 and Hill -08), the tracks don't look much different, and then there is always the question of how much 4 years of development in bike geometry, suspension, brakes etc. would make a difference. All I know is that both runs are insane to watch again.
I really don't think this debate will ever get anywhere, you can very rarely compare runs from different events in this and many other sports. It's different if you have a race track and set conditions, then you can always say that one time is better than another but in DH, with the measure being how much faster someone is than someone else? Fogedaboudit.
They do indeed. Perhaps I confused you, but conditions change year to year because of dirt conditions, rain, course changes, etc. It isn't like a motor sport on a paved track where you can compare times years apart (even though temps are a factor). But some dirt going missing from between rocks that these guys skip over isn't what's going to make the largest difference is what I was meaning to convey because that happens anyway from Thursday to Sunday. it's the rerouting, differences in taping, accumulation of new dirt, re cutting lines, etc. I guess it all affects how a course 'evolves'. I believe bedlam is correct in saying it's hard if not impossible to compare times years apart in DH racing.
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Yea! Fully expecting another berm buster from Mr Hart.
Hopefully no injuries and everyone brings their A-Game so we get more exciting racing.
Hopefully no injuries and everyone brings their A-Game so we get more exciting racing.
In all reality, Hill got lucky to only fall at the bottom of that course. The risks he took were so absurd that day. If he'd have hung on to that run, it would have been luck, not his insane skills, that got him down.
Sure, it looked amazing on TV though.
Sure, it looked amazing on TV though.
Man, Sam's time gets better every time somebody retells this story of how Rob Warner lost his sh1t.
But if you actually take the time to look at his splits/race, heres what comes up instead: He was up 6.3 on Peat, and crashed about 15 seconds later. I'm pretty dubious of the claim that he picked up an additional 2 seconds within 15 seconds. But remember, peat was just the one in the hot seat at the time - he wouldn't have ended up with second had Sam not crashed. If you compare his time to Gee's, the racing was even more tight: He was up about 4 seconds on Gee when he crashed. Lets suppose that he hadn't crashed, and had made up 2 seconds on Gee in the remainder of the course (which seems incredibly suspect if you actually look at that section of the trail), his margin of victory STILL wouldn't have been as great as Gwin's. So yah. You're wrong on that count.
Placing well with a massive crash? Gimme a break - he was on a stormer of a run and went down. That crash didn't hold him up in the slightest in terms of getting back on the bike and getting going - he was already pointed down hill and it was a slideout, not a headsmasher. Also, Gwin had a crash/OTB/off the trail at MSA and WON the race. So theres that. Placing well with a crash is a big deal, but when you're comparing his run to Gwins, you're comparing him to a guy who is in a league above him.
But yeah, I agree that Hills run was visually more impressive because he looked like he was so close to falling the entire time (which he ended up doing because he couldn't handle it), and Gwin's run looked like he was just knocking out a DH run in perfect form, but to me the cooler of the two runs to watch is Gwins just because makes it look so easy.
I think atrokz said it very well. Plus, it's just my opinion. I'm admittedly a fan of Sam, but not a rabid fanboy.
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1: He lost a massive amount of speed because of that crash. Going from, lets say 50kph (conservative guess) to 0KPH, in a high speed section, is a MASSIVE amount of time lost in a DH race. This isn't complicated.
2: The section I bolded is the reason I'm going to ignore you now. That's an absurd statement.
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He lost about 6 seconds in that crash, if you count from the time he goes down to the time he gets back up to speed again.
It's all about the drama. That race had it all. Peaty in the hot seat trying to get the elusive World Championship. Sam making mince meat of the field on flats. Warner going out of his mind with stellar commentary. Gee cleaning up to crush Peaty's hopes again. Everybody in attendance knew Sam was the fastest that day.
Gwin's run was amazing, but it didn't have the drama that creates a great victory that will be remember for all of time or the horrible feeling left from the agony of defeat when you were the best that day. That is what makes Sam's run so much more memorable
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Fair enough. But the point remains that Aaron Gwin has won a race that he crashed in his race run, and Sam Hill has not. Exclaiming "but he got 3rd place" doesn't hold much weight here. edit: Trying to dig up the video of him going off the trail and needing to yank his bike back up the hill right now for you.
I agree, he lost a ton of speed because of that crash, but getting back on the bike/recovering was extremely quick because it was in the easiest of all possible places. He wasn't going an extra 15-20kph over Gee and Peat in that section, they were all balls to the wall fast. I've no doubt that he would have made up more time on that bottom section, but even two seconds is a stretch when you're looking at the fastest part of the entire course where times are getting way tighter.
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I see. I think Drth Vdr is summing it up nicely. also, when I watched the replays at the points where he crashes the time shows it's over 8 seconds from what I remember. It was that last woods section where he just pummeled the rocks.
I don't want to take away from Gwin at all, but I just saw that race as an outstanding show.
Also, this thread was bound to bring up this topic wasn't it?
I don't want to take away from Gwin at all, but I just saw that race as an outstanding show.
Also, this thread was bound to bring up this topic wasn't it?
hahahaha, I didn't expect to be in such a minority thinking gwins run was way cooler though, thats for sure.
But yeah, he was up 6.3 then crashed 15 seconds later. It was also more dramatic because the split was so far into the race, you only got to see him hauling ass and then suddenly he's like 6 seconds up.
In gwins race, there was an extra split and they were spaced more evenly, so it was "2.3 seconds up in the first 30 seconds" "5 seconds up at the next split"
This. Remember the stunning performance of Hill in Champery in '07?
Even the speaker in the finish area said something like:"That is the greatest ride I have ever seen. That beats everything!..."
Six years later every follower of the WC circuit recognizes this and the VdS run + the performances in Schladming of Hill somewhat of the game changers of the sport 6 years ago.
He didn't win all the time, but the show was breathtaking.
Gwin on the other hand was that much faster than anyone else that it was obvious that he won and it was almost boring to watch the racing.
This is the stupidest thing I've seen on here in a while. Especially after last weekend! Hill 6th with a mechanical and Gwin in 20th with no reported problems? Besides, 6 seconds, 10 seconds and even 30 seconds still puts these pros so far above us it's ridiculous to point the finger at one of them and say he isn't that good or washed up. Thank you, EC
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Did you miss the part about bikes not being good because a racer had a bad day?
It's teh bike: It demolized eyebrows and rock Jesus.
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Fair enough, that is a little over the top. Nevertheless, I'll stand by Gwin having a more impressive run.
yeah, a little bit, just like saying the other riders are having problem holding it together OR saying Gwin has no pressure to perform riding for the big S
Man it would be fun to have a bunch of guys on the interweb dissect some of my rides.
"Dude, that was totally way more mediocre than the other mediocre guy".
"Dude, that was totally way more mediocre than the other mediocre guy".
Your rock skipping abilities are sub par, and you need to work on keeping it to the left of the root next run.Man it would be fun to have a bunch of guys on the interweb dissect some of my rides.
"Dude, that was totally way more mediocre than the other mediocre guy".
Sincerely: Internet guy.
alright alright i got carried away, but Sam's run, had he not crashed, would not have been as impressive to me as Gwins run (although it was similar level). Its like comparing Gwin to Hart at champery worlds - Yeah, gwins run was great, but Hart didn't crash. Anyway, I've made a complete ass of myself trying to make my point and I'm going to stfu about it now.Man it would be fun to have a bunch of guys on the interweb dissect some of my rides.
"Dude, that was totally way more mediocre than the other mediocre guy".
well said
Wow, he looked really fat over that rock. Like more fat than usual. The other fat old guy looked faster, probably because of shimz and yaw angles.Man it would be fun to have a bunch of guys on the interweb dissect some of my rides.
"Dude, that was totally way more mediocre than the other mediocre guy".
off topic, a memorable run was kovarik at ft bill. he crushed an impressive field by 14 seconds and vouilloz gave him props at the finish line with a puzzled look on his face. that was when oln showed the races on tv, the lame old days were okay in book.
Next round will be a great show, I am glad to see sick mic getting back up to speed and hope gwinns poor result was just a fluke.
Next round will be a great show, I am glad to see sick mic getting back up to speed and hope gwinns poor result was just a fluke.
Well I think we can agree that this season is setting up for more drama and less Gwinomination. I havent found racing as exciting these last two years as the ones before. Storiming one of runs as Hart and Hill's champ runs is what I want in an overall tight points race. Not a total destruction where incredible riders look like me at a local race due to one rider's super speed.
No sir I wont stand for it. More drama for the people I demand.
over
No sir I wont stand for it. More drama for the people I demand.
overI've heard rumours that the Internet has reached dangerous levels of bull**** due to last weeks results and another weekend of racing could cause previously unheard of levels of speculation and crackpot theories.
To combat this the entire Mens field has agreed to cross the line in 10minutes flat in VdS, and they shall continue to do so until the keyboard warriors calm down, step away from their computers and realise that a good way to release their pent up anger at the results would be to do a small amount of moderate exercise. Like riding a bicycle perhaps (but not a Demo, because you'll be going so slowly it'll be next season by the time you get home).
To combat this the entire Mens field has agreed to cross the line in 10minutes flat in VdS, and they shall continue to do so until the keyboard warriors calm down, step away from their computers and realise that a good way to release their pent up anger at the results would be to do a small amount of moderate exercise. Like riding a bicycle perhaps (but not a Demo, because you'll be going so slowly it'll be next season by the time you get home).
Thought I might point out the effect of the crash is not just the amount of time lost, it's also what the crash does to your heart rate and concentration.
Or maybe that's just me.
Or maybe that's just me.
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Gwin had a rough day like Eli Tomac near the end of the season. Eli came roaring back hell for leather the next race...
I just think Gwin came into the season a little "under cooked".
A little too light on the pre-season race schedule.
He had commented last year about being disappointed by fizzing out at the end of the year, maybe tried starting a little less amped up this year.
I just think Gwin came into the season a little "under cooked".
A little too light on the pre-season race schedule.
He had commented last year about being disappointed by fizzing out at the end of the year, maybe tried starting a little less amped up this year.
Maybe he's trying to peak at Worlds?
pretty unlikely that he and specialized put much emphasis on doing well on that one.
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Good Thought. A logical one. It should not be in this thread. Slowly working his way into it just like Minaar who don't want to fubar before the real deal. Elusive for Gwin. Home town repeat for Minaar.
Maybe he is injured and they have done very well keeping it silent. He maybe trying to get back up there. France bad crashed manned up to take 5th. Norway bad crash messed up hand sat out. Leogang Champs mechanical.
I think fresh podium is rad and has been coming since 2011. Mick was the one up there who had been at it the longest.
Warner had a good point on broadcast. Hill came in in a while back and upped the game, then racers responded. Gwin did the same, perhaps racers did also. Maybe past each individuals consistent confident level resulting in the fresh podium
let the sheet show of observations continue.. maybe he missed Monk!
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