[bizutch]

I've got an even better idea!
What if major bike companies fabricated their bikes in house and were able to rapidly make successive revisions of their bike for the top ranked racers in the world?

You drinking the Steber Kool-Aid? Or dreaming of the day Brent Foes hits a reasonable price point?

Totally unrelated: Hit up the Intense demo with Cane Creek yesterday and had retarded amounts of fun on a 27.5 carbon Carbine equipped with a DB Air. I finally figured out why people buy these bigger wheels.

It's just a change...like if you were to hook up with the chic down the hall instead of the same old same old. New is different. Different is exciting...even if you're hitting it all half-ass.

 

[Sandwich]

The foes dh bike is less expensive than several of the foreign options.

 

[OGRipper]

I've got an even better idea!
What if major bike companies fabricated their bikes in house and were able to rapidly make successive revisions of their bike for the top ranked racers in the world?

Or what if instead, major bike companies invested in extensive R&D with those top racers, and then those racers rode stock frames at the highest levels of our sport, and anyone with enough dough could buy the exact same frames?

And what if at the same time those companies developed techniques for using newer materials so those bikes could be lighter and stronger than ever before?

Man, that would be so cool.

 

[Steve M]

Just stoking the fire here - the track has changed a bit this year, and conditions are obviously never going to be identical, so let's compare some qualifying numbers between 2012 and 2013 at VDS:

Gee:
2012 - 3:25.8
2013 - 3:15.5
Difference: 10.3 seconds quicker this year

Hill:
2012 - 3:26.8
2013 - 3:19.4
Difference: 7.4 seconds quicker this year

Minnaar:
2012 - 3:24.3
2013 - 3:20.5
Difference: 3.2 seconds quicker this year

Hart:
2012 - 3:27.5
2013 - 3:20.2
Difference: 7.3 seconds quicker this year

Macdonald:
2012 - 3:30.2
2013 - 3:18.7
Difference: 11.5 seconds quicker this year

Gwin:
2012 - 3:16.7
2013 - 3:16.8
Difference: 0.1 seconds SLOWER this year

When the top riders are mostly going faster by reasonably substantial margins, and Gwin - arguably the most consistent rider for the past 2 years - goes backwards, relatively speaking, what do you make of that? Gee is on a bike that on paper would appear to be a better performer than last year's bike (being a major revision from the same manufacturer), Hill is on something completely new and relatively unproven, Minnaar, Hart and Macdonald are on the same bikes they were running last year + whatever tweaks they've made, and Gwin is now on the Demo that coincided with the end of Hill's dominating form. Obviously there are a ton of variables here, including training, mental state, or just having a good/bad day, and feel free to call me an armchair expert, but given Gwin's stats for the past two years it's pretty hard to call him inconsistent. Roll on race day!

 

[dylan s]

Hill's dominating form did not end with a demo. He won the overall the first year he was on a demo and world champs the next year after being off the bike for several months due to injury. The off season has been ridiculously long this year so its understandable that they might take a race to get back into it, others it would seem have it dialled from race one. Why's everyone talking about Gwin and no on is mentioning Minnaar? He to was off the pace at fort william

 

[Steve M]

Hill's dominating form did not end with a demo. He won the overall the first year he was on a demo and world champs the next year after being off the bike for several months due to injury. The off season has been ridiculously long this year so its understandable that they might take a race to get back into it, others it would seem have it dialled from race one. Why's everyone talking about Gwin and no on is mentioning Minnaar? He to was off the pace at fort william

Hill won only two world cups in four years with Spesh, vs 8 in four years with Iron Horse - though you are correct that two of those seasons were hampered by injury. He also rode a much drier course than the other top riders in 2010 (not just speculation, I was there) specifically BECAUSE he'd been injured - the riders were automatically seeded by UCI ranking, and having missed half the season, his ranking was lower which meant he rode a fair way before most of the top guys. His best season with Spesh was the first year though, on the frame prior to the current one (two generations earlier if you count the carbon one as a significant change, which I don't). After that year, other than the MSA worlds mentioned above, he never did better than 5th at a WC on a Demo. Compare that to 8 WC wins and two World Championships wins (not to mention his most notorious runs at Champery and VDS) in the previous 4 years with Iron Horse. I'm not saying the change was BECAUSE of the change in bike, just that it coincided with him getting on the current form of Demo, which could be simply down to bad luck or others lifting their game at that time, or even Hill just getting complacent.

As for Minnaar, yeah it was odd to see him off the back at Ft Bill given how strong he has been there in the past, however the change in his results was nowhere near as drastic as Gwin's at the same race. Maybe Gwin just had a bad weekend, but speculating is a lot more entertaining than admitting we don't really know

 

[bismojo]

@Steve M

Nice analysis.. I agree with you.

*Sam Hill + DW Sunday = awesomeness* IMHO

Still wonder, how bout if there's 1 special stage race, and the rider can choose whatever bike they like.. might be interesting.

Or, randomly-selected frame-rider DH race.. haha.

 

[Kanye West]

An AWESOME format would be, all riders, same bike and same setup, with the exception of:

-Frame size
-Flats or clips
-Lever positions and seat height
-Appropriate springrates

 

[scottishmark]

Macdonald are on the same bikes they were running last year

No he's not, went from Mondraker to Trek

 

[tabletop84]

well that's an awful lot of armchair-expertise and badly educated guesses. Nothing against specialized-bashing but it should be obvious to total retards that the rider was and is the biggest variable. Just look at Sick Mick. Although it might not his favorite track he underperformed in qualis and while some people might bring that into conecction with his bike or frame-size the actual explanation that the whole hutchison-ur-team is sick (literally) explains it far better (including tracey's quali result)

 

[CBJ]

Sure the rider is important but looks at the very small margins from last weekend little details can help. I am sure Mike could tell you a lot about ****ty bikes. Like when he rode the uber crappy Haro DH bike.

 

[William42]

I think the moral is that Gwin got lucky the past two years in a row at every race, and that he was not actually consistent, and now that a huge change happened in his bikes, that has nothing to do with his performance.

it was a nice thought steve, but this is the internet, and we are never wrong here.

 

[scottishmark]

Interwebs can now be calm: http://dirt.mpora.com/news/dirttv-aaron-gwin-interview.html

 

[William42]

Interwebs can now be calm: http://dirt.mpora.com/news/dirttv-aaron-gwin-interview.html

"you guys get too into this stuff man"

But in seriousness, wasn't the med demo pretty similar WB to the large session? Seems like the short chainstays don't agree with him more then anything.

 

[scottishmark]

"you guys get too into this stuff man"

But in seriousness, wasn't the med demo pretty similar WB to the large session? Seems like the short chainstays don't agree with him more then anything.

Eh? He talks about the size of the cockpit way moar than anything else..... but I suppose that wouldn't confirm the intarweb's decision that Demos are slow

 

[tabletop84]

Sure the rider is important but looks at the very small margins from last weekend little details can help. I am sure Mike could tell you a lot about ****ty bikes. Like when he rode the uber crappy Haro DH bike.

That was years ago. Just tell me which bike on the WC you think is 'bad' in the sense that it's totally inferior to the others?

The geometry is dialled around a 63-64 headangle and the other numbers are pretty equal too. And then there are angle-sets, wheelbase-adjustments etc.

Then there are only two major suspension-companies left with fox and rockshox. (no disrespect for mz and manitou but they definately got outnumbered by these two)

So the main differences between bikes are kinematics, stiffness, levels and weight which shouldn't be all over the place in the full-range. There never was a review about a world-cup bike going like "the rear-and sucks ballz" or "frame is too flexy for going fast" etc.

 

[weedkilla]

As fascinating as this is for a bike geek like myself, the contrast with moto where there is only 1 size available is really amazing at the moment.

 

[DH Dad]

The Demo is simply an old design and can use some updates, 10 years ago the short stays were genius, now not so much. If Gwin's is now competitive on a large then he was simply on the wrong sz last week. Still find it amazing that he didn't figure that out until after WC #1!

There's one concept not mentioned enough here, Gee and Co. simply got faster and even if Gwin were still on a Session the top 5 simply r going to b a lot closer this year.

So speculation time, if Gwin isn't 100% in tune with the Demo, which courses will give him the most trouble? Pedally courses or VDS style?

 

[Tomasis]

i wonder what happens if Spec raises lenght of chainstay. it would make a difference. I dont like neither the idea of short chainstays on riding DH in full speed.

 

[wood booger]

The demo platform has not been stagnant for ten years. As anyone who has ridden different incarnations can tell you, there have been significant changes over the years. Geometry, leverage ratio, shock stroke, frame material, etc have all been updated and changed.

When Hill came on board he got multiple versions to test. There was the option of a longer rear end, but Sammy liked the short (stock) one. He went on to take a World Cup overall and a World Championship (along with Troy in Jr's) on that outdated design.

I am sure Gwinner got multiple versions to play with as well.

 

[Steve M]

No he's not, went from Mondraker to Trek

Whoops, you are correct, sorry.

 

[kidwoo]

Man what was scott thinking with that 16.7" chainstay option? That frame really needs an update.

Scott is a southern california company right?

 

[MFrider]

Interwebs can now be calm: http://dirt.mpora.com/news/dirttv-aaron-gwin-interview.html

I think the last thing Gwin says is spot on!

 

[tuumbaq]

I think the last thing Gwin says is spot on!

i actually think it was quite condescending...same as last week "its just bike riding".... Pretending there's something wrong being entertained with all the technical data and drama around it is a bit cocky and offending for the fans supporting the industry .

I cant wait to see Specialized next big marketing campaign: "we dont give a **** about bikes, cause they're just bicycle after all , we only make them to make money and it works for our multiple WC champ Aaron Gwin "

Hard to believe Specialized hadnt put more effort making sure Aaron's bike was 100% dialed and ready for WC racing.

Nevertheless, Im glad Aaron seems to be back on form hopefully forcing the rest of the field to step up their game once again ....Would sure love to see Stevie on the top step tomorrow, followed by Hill but I wouldnt be surprise to see Gwin wining ... several seconds ahead of 2nd place

 

[Da Peach]

Adjustable top tubes and 27.5 DH bikes all around next year.

 

[Tomasis]

Scott is Swiss

 

[mykel]

"you guys get too into this stuff man"

Ya, cause we all have our own personal WC support team and top level mechanic to take care of the mundane stuff.

michael

 

[EVIL JN]

Gwin might want to think one more time before belittle "racing bikes" and "too much into this" since that is what pays his rent and dinner. Never mock the hand that feeds you aka know as the masses of geeks splashing hard earned coin on the latest and gratest.

Although I can undertand that he is getting rather annoyed that everyone asks about new frame size, bad result etc etc, I mena give the guy a break. All pros in all sports have off days, gets comfortable when winning and oversees prep work for upcoming season etc. With a second in qualis on a track like VDS I think it is fair to say he is on pace when he feels good on his setup

 

[intensified]

Go USA!! Outside of that I predict mic will be ahead of sam again, sorry to all the green eggs and ham fans.
oh and no way will gee get a back to back win on this one, I bet enve rims on that.

 

[norbar]

well that's an awful lot of armchair-expertise and badly educated guesses. Nothing against specialized-bashing but it should be obvious to total retards that the rider was and is the biggest variable. Just look at Sick Mick. Although it might not his favorite track he underperformed in qualis and while some people might bring that into conecction with his bike or frame-size the actual explanation that the whole hutchison-ur-team is sick (literally) explains it far better (including tracey's quali result)

You are just angry because you ride a tues.

 

[vikingboy]

"you guys get too into this stuff man"

Ya, cause we all have our own personal WC support team and top level mechanic to take care of the mundane stuff.

michael

I didnt think he was being disrespectful. I took it in context to his previous sentence, i.e 'i ride what feels comfortable'. He didnt seem to care what its measurement was so long as it felt 'right' and he could ride in his familiar style. I thought it was quite interesting interview.

 

[bismojo]

well that's an awful lot of armchair-expertise and badly educated guesses. Nothing against specialized-bashing but it should be obvious to total retards that the rider was and is the biggest variable. Just look at Sick Mick. Although it might not his favorite track he underperformed in qualis and while some people might bring that into conecction with his bike or frame-size the actual explanation that the whole hutchison-ur-team is sick (literally) explains it far better (including tracey's quali result)

DIRT #136 p.113 "...We did some timed testing with a few different bikes in Whistler and straight out of the box the Polygon was a couple of seconds faster than the other bikes we rode.."

Yes I ride Polygon for DH also and was there with the team when they come here, so i'm totally biased. But I had 3+1 generation of demos and still have DW sunday (and KS link) so I know a bit of their pluses and minuses.. no bike is 100% perfect yet until I designed it myself in my dreams (haha)

This time in VDS tough, I'd like to see Loic and Remy podium, with brook 1st!

 

[kidwoo]

Scott is Swiss

No scott is definitely an american name. I know one just down the street. There's no question scott is definitely an american company based in socal. I can just tell.

 

[CBJ]

That was years ago. Just tell me which bike on the WC you think is 'bad' in the sense that it's totally inferior to the others?

The geometry is dialled around a 63-64 headangle and the other numbers are pretty equal too. And then there are angle-sets, wheelbase-adjustments etc.

Then there are only two major suspension-companies left with fox and rockshox. (no disrespect for mz and manitou but they definately got outnumbered by these two)

So the main differences between bikes are kinematics, stiffness, levels and weight which shouldn't be all over the place in the full-range. There never was a review about a world-cup bike going like "the rear-and sucks ballz" or "frame is too flexy for going fast" etc.

I was talking in general about how a frame can have an impact just like I think the new GT this year is a better bike for the team.

That it was just an example and I think a lot of things besides the rider can help decide who wins. Tire choice, tire selection, suspension setup, team support and I am sure there is more.

Might be even more besides the rider in the future like electronically controlled suspension damping. There are already several companies with this on the market.

Anyway not trying to start a big discussion I just think there is more to winning than just being the best rider as the top 10 are all so close.

 

[OGRipper]

Like a lot of people, Gwin doesn't need to share everything that comes into his head. The warrior mind play ninja defense mechanisms he uses to stay chill and avoid pressure don't really help his image. I mean, if he doesn't really care, neither do I, and honestly I hope someone else wins.

Anyway, tomorrow should be pretty friggin' awesome.

 

[mykel]

I didnt think he was being disrespectful. I took it in context to his previous sentence, i.e 'i ride what feels comfortable'. He didnt seem to care what its measurement was so long as it felt 'right' and he could ride in his familiar style. I thought it was quite interesting interview.

While I understand you point - I just read it differently.
I can respect the mind-games aspect...

However, as you said he didn't care what the measurement was as long is it felt good.

That pretty much sums up my point. He doesn't have to care about the numbers, he has somebody with a thick notebook that does that. He says I don't like this - feels bla bla bla.... and the mechs do the homework and change the setup. He rides and says good or fix it again....but on the other hand...us plebs must care and care an awful lot. Money is not cheap, and I just can't buy a crate of stems of different lengths and rise to try em all. I have to pay attention to the numbers and then take an educated guess.

That is why his comment stuck me as a bit ripe.

just me 2 pence

michael

 

[Gary]

Pay attention to numbers? based on what?

[hint] even if you are exactly the same size and weight as Gwin, knowing every measurement on his bike would still be utterly irrelivent to you.

 

[Rider15]

Gee:
2012 - 3:25.8
2013 - 3:15.5
Difference: 10.3 seconds quicker this year

Hill:
2012 - 3:26.8
2013 - 3:19.4
Difference: 7.4 seconds quicker this year

Minnaar:
2012 - 3:24.3
2013 - 3:20.5
Difference: 3.2 seconds quicker this year

Hart:
2012 - 3:27.5
2013 - 3:20.2
Difference: 7.3 seconds quicker this year

Macdonald:
2012 - 3:30.2
2013 - 3:18.7
Difference: 11.5 seconds quicker this year

Gwin:
2012 - 3:16.7
2013 - 3:16.8
Difference: 0.1 seconds SLOWER this year

When the top riders are mostly going faster by reasonably substantial margins, and Gwin - arguably the most consistent rider for the past 2 years - goes backwards, relatively speaking, what do you make of that?

While comparing qualifying times of over a year ago and on a track that is clearly been changed is pretty silly to me, but one thing I will point out is that while gwin did go backwards by 0.1 seconds his time is still faster then every other time except Gee's. And besides how many of you can get within 0.1 seconds of the same time you set over a year ago?

 

[4130biker]

Maybe on a personal level it's annoying as fvck to have Steve Jones grilling you about how things are going and what your setups are at the moment you're trying to figure out what is going on yourself. I'd say all of this pent up butthurt now that he's had a mediocre result shows no class at all.
Not that I would expect any class here...

 

[kidwoo]

Maybe on a personal level it's annoying as fvck to have Steve Jones grilling you about how things are going and what your setups are at the moment you're trying to figure out what is going on yourself.

That was pretty much my take.

My answer would have been something along the lines of "don't you have some shoelace measurement to get dialed in so you can go a different degree of slow in life and then analyze it for an article?"